Stalker: SC strong enough? otherwise which multiclass?

[SirMirrorcoat]

So, Imma take a break from this game for a few days before finally playing through with essentially what I would play if I didn't have to choose between hundreds of combinations. Melee + pet.

(choice paralysis sucks)

(and I am still having to decide among a few, so, here we go)

So, now, we have the essentially last questions before I go for my full playthrough as a Rauataian Stalker.

Well, ****. I just wrote half an essay for 15 minutes and all is lost for some reason
So, this time in short

PotD, CP mod and Balance Polishing mods fully installed.

Party: Eder (Unbroken/Trickster main tank), Aloth (SC Wizard), Maia (Geomancer phantom as @Boeroermentioned a lot in the past) and Xoti (SC Priest).

Now on to the questions again:

1.
SC Stalker. Is it strong on its own or does it need 'support' from multiclassing? Bonded Fury and Shadowed Hunters seem pretty dope on paper, and Whirlwind Strikes as well.
I am just not sure those 3 actives are worth losing the bonuses of a second class over... In case they are worth it, I will raise Arcana for added versatility.

2.
In case SC is not worth it.
MCs that interest me:
/Beguiler. Primarily for flavor. Cipher was pretty much my least favorite class in poe1, but Serafen does good here, so I am open to this one.
/Nalpazca. Monk is just stupid strong right from the get-go. Also, flavor simply for the class-name Wanderer.
/Lifegiver. Second buffer/healer. On top, I really like the idea of a werebear with a bear-buddy.
/Wizard. For even more bonkers spell-slinger galore.
/Berserker. Again, flavor. I would actually have no idea what either of those classes would gain from one-another, but it is on my list for the questionaire anyway

3.
Fire Godlike vs Hearth Oral.n 
I would prefer Fire Godlike purely for flavor, but the powergamer in me is wary of losing the head-slot for just a measly 4 fire AR. Especially looking at Heaven's Cacophony - that thing is just so strong that early in the game.

 

This is like a third of the length it was before but essentially the same content. wtf

Edited October 4, 2021 by SirMirrorcoat

[Boeroer]

SC Stalker is fine by me. Whirling Strikes is very good but also expensive. Having a Cipher in the party would make an SC Stalker way better because of the source of Brilliant.

I personally must use Stalker's Patience as my main weapon when using a Stalker - obviously.

I played a Stalker/Monk (don't remember the subclass, probably Helwalker) because I wanted to combine the recovery skip of Stalker's Patience with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming. Crit chain and high ACC lead to lots of recovery skips. With the late Instruments of Pain I could also make good use of Enduring Dance which stacks with the Ranger's passive ACC buffs (and Hunter's Claw etc.). Also the wounding of the weapon is very nice. It was fun.

Didn't play an SC Stalker in a real playthrough but only did test sessions with it (mainly fiddling around with Whirling Strikes) so I can't say how much fun it is before reaching he high levels. But I learned to not underestimate how impactful and nice it can be to be able to reach higher Power Level abilities a lot sooner. 

   
 

[thelee]

7 hours ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

/Lifegiver. Second buffer/healer. On top, I really like the idea of a werebear with a bear-buddy.

i did a beastmaster build and it was so effective, i actually got bored of it and re-rolled, so take that what you may

 

 

7 hours ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

/Berserker. Again, flavor. I would actually have no idea what either of those classes would gain from one-another, but it is on my list for the questionaire anyway

i would actually suggest furyshaper, but only because i'm a berserker skeptic because of the malus. i had a furyshaper/stalker and it was real effective. barbarians are special because they get much more returns out of perception/accuracy than other classes. Because carnage only triggers on a hit (and then has to roll itself again), you actually have n^2 returns from accuracy at first, rather than the typical sub-linear returns... and unlike other scenarios where accuracy drops off in effectiveness once you have enough, barbarians can get a passive that lets them interrupt on crits, which in my opinion keeps the practical effectiveness of sky-high accuracy quite high. so the huge accuracy from a ranger won't go to waste. bonus AR and deflection can help you withstand the -15 -10 def penalty of frenzy (bonus AR goes great with Thick Skin barbarian passive), and eventually (if you want) you can upgrade Hunter's Claw to give you defensive bonuses (which I did).

Edited October 5, 2021 by thelee

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

bonus [...] deflection can help you withstand the -15 def penalty of frenzy

-10 deflection.

 

[Boeroer]

By the way: Stunning Shots with a SC Stalker could be a cool passive I guess? Best used with fast weapon though like daggers or hatchets etc. 

If you cast Binding Roots on enemies and then use Vion-Ceth you can get a +30% dmg bonus. With max Religion (pretend you worship Galawain) you can also use Xoti's Sickle to great effect. It doesn't matter how you kill enemies (doesn't have to be with the sickle) to get the bonus dmg stacks. And it climbs up to +60%. So one hatchet +30% dmg, the other with up to +60% and good attack speed which might let you interrupt with Stunning Shots often. Also a bit more defense. Sounds good?

Lover's Embrace + Pukestabber is even faster than hatchets and more accurate. If you hit a target from stealth you can apply True Love's Kiss which unlocks Predator's Sense. 

Dual Battle Axe with Bleeding Cuts is pretty great with Whirling Strikes (makes the most out of the Bond in terms of damage). Bleeding Cuts unlock Predator's Sense. 

A dual wielder can also receive Reaping Knives from a fellow cipher and be good with them. 

And of course the omnipresent Morning Star is good because the AC's "Takedown Combo" targets fortitude. Takedown Combo works best with a two handed weapon - if you want to profit from it yourself (you don't have to though). Saru Sichr's poison DoT unlocks Predator's Sense, too.

Stalker with Ngati's Tusk sounds nice as well (Hunter of Hunters with max Survival is really, really good).

[SirMirrorcoat]

12 hours ago, Boeroer said:

SC Stalker is fine by me. Whirling Strikes is very good but also expensive. Having a Cipher in the party would make an SC Stalker way better because of the source of Brilliant.

I personally must use Stalker's Patience as my main weapon when using a Stalker - obviously.

I played a Stalker/Monk (don't remember the subclass, probably Helwalker) because I wanted to combine the recovery skip of Stalker's Patience with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming. Crit chain and high ACC lead to lots of recovery skips. With the late Instruments of Pain I could also make good use of Enduring Dance which stacks with the Ranger's passive ACC buffs (and Hunter's Claw etc.). Also the wounding of the weapon is very nice. It was fun.

Didn't play an SC Stalker in a real playthrough but only did test sessions with it (mainly fiddling around with Whirling Strikes) so I can't say how much fun it is before reaching he high levels. But I learned to not underestimate how impactful and nice it can be to be able to reach higher Power Level abilities a lot sooner. 

   
 

But Eder already uses 1handed weapons xD but yeah, DW is pretty much something every Ranger should use.

Wouldn't Wit of Death's Herald help with the WS cost as well? Or Potion of Enlightenment for the Megabosses.

12 hours ago, thelee said:

i did a beastmaster build and it was so effective, i actually got bored of it and re-rolled, so take that what you may

 

 

i would actually suggest furyshaper, but only because i'm a berserker skeptic because of the malus. i had a furyshaper/stalker and it was real effective. barbarians are special because they get much more returns out of perception/accuracy than other classes. Because carnage only triggers on a hit (and then has to roll itself again), you actually have n^2 returns from accuracy at first, rather than the typical sub-linear returns... and unlike other scenarios where accuracy drops off in effectiveness once you have enough, barbarians can get a passive that lets them interrupt on crits, which in my opinion keeps the practical effectiveness of sky-high accuracy quite high. so the huge accuracy from a ranger won't go to waste. bonus AR and deflection can help you withstand the -15 -10 def penalty of frenzy (bonus AR goes great with Thick Skin barbarian passive), and eventually (if you want) you can upgrade Hunter's Claw to give you defensive bonuses (which I did).

How was Beastmaster so effective, you got bored with it? That sounds intriguing...

And Furyshaper, I have yet to figure out how to make it work. The range of the wards seems so small, Serafen (Beguiler/Furyshaper melee) could never really profit from the speed buff...
Any advice for that?

18 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

By the way: Stunning Shots with a SC Stalker could be a cool passive I guess? Best used with fast weapon though like daggers or hatchets etc. 

If you cast Binding Roots on enemies and then use Vion-Ceth you can get a +30% dmg bonus. With max Religion (pretend you worship Galawain) you can also use Xoti's Sickle to great effect. It doesn't matter how you kill enemies (doesn't have to be with the sickle) to get the bonus dmg stacks. And it climbs up to +60%. So one hatchet +30% dmg, the other with up to +60% and good attack speed which might let you interrupt with Stunning Shots often. Also a bit more defense. Sounds good?

Lover's Embrace + Pukestabber is even faster than hatchets and more accurate. If you hit a target from stealth you can apply True Love's Kiss which unlocks Predator's Sense. 

Dual Battle Axe with Bleeding Cuts is pretty great with Whirling Strikes (makes the most out of the Bond in terms of damage). Bleeding Cuts unlock Predator's Sense. 

A dual wielder can also receive Reaping Knives from a fellow cipher and be good with them. 

And of course the omnipresent Morning Star is good because the AC's "Takedown Combo" targets fortitude. Takedown Combo works best with a two handed weapon - if you want to profit from it yourself (you don't have to though). Saru Sichr's poison DoT unlocks Predator's Sense, too.

Stalker with Ngati's Tusk sounds nice as well (Hunter of Hunters with max Survival is really, really good).

With all these ideas, for now I am leaning towards SC by a long shot. Unless Beastmaster will be made more tempting...

Guess Eder is tanky enough to take 2handed weapons instead of shield

[SirMirrorcoat]

I guess Savage could somewhat substitute for Whirlwind Strikes with Carnage..?

[Elric Galad]

Also another possibility :

You can use Whirling Strikes with a melee&ranged weapon combo.

Driving Flight even applies to such ranged attacks to proc more hit.

It's quite fun with either one of the Mortars in left hand.
Or Scordeo's Trophy (with Strategic Blitz) to get stacks or melee weapon recovery reduction. Fast melee Attacks + Stunning Shots is quite nice.  

[SirMirrorcoat]

Mortars are bonkers xD

 

Decided. Will go Stalker/Stalker

[SirMirrorcoat]

Now I only wonder if Maia would also be better as a SC Gunhawk xD

[Boeroer]

Imo Maia is best as Scout with the Red Hand. Her longer range with arquebuses counters the Red Hand's shorter range and the build-in interrupts from her subclass make Stunning Shots a bit redundant. Twinned Shots with the Red Hand is great as well - but again that costs a lot of Bond. I'd prefer to use Takedown Combo more and raise the dmg with the Rogue's passives (Sneak Attack etc.) that cost no resources instead of investing Bond.
I also like to be able to flee with both resource pools. Even if either Guile or Bond are empty you might still have the other one and can use either Escape or Evasive Roll. Also Escape's deflection bonus in combination with Maia's Armor (Return Fire) makes sense. 
Use Gunner and her armor in combination with Acina's Tricorn and she's great. Also - and that's maybe even more important for a companion - she needs rel. little micro for a Scout (also her bird cannot be engaged and is free to retreat whenever it gets damaged too much).

Of course it might be that you already played her as Scout and are looking for something new... 

[Boeroer]

36 minutes ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

Mortars are bonkers xD

 

Decided. Will go Stalker/Stalker

Fire in the Hole with Driving Flight is not only great for Whirling Strikes (it's spectacular actually). It also gives a lot of stacks with Hunter's Claw with only one shot (jumps add stacks, too). The Full Attack of Hunter's Claw allows to use a ranged wepon in the offhand.
So - melee + mortar def. works. If you use a melee weapon in the main hand you also keep engagment. Mortar in main hand + melee weapon or Tuotilo's Palm in offhand would also work, but then you'd have no engagement (bit of a bummer imo).

Note that Concussive Tranquilizer does work with the AoE of mortars which is great (AoE interrupt and stripping off buffs) - but Wounding Shot does not.

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Boeroer

[SirMirrorcoat]

I only played her as a Geomancer so far. Not even to the point where I could summon her phantom. Just that the phantom spam sounds great on paper (and Aloth uses his phantom a lot). 

Ye, her interrupt passive makes one part of SC ranger obsolete... 

Scout then. 

[Elric Galad]

54 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Note that Concussive Tranquilizer does work with the AoE of mortars which is great (AoE interrupt and stripping off buffs) - but Wounding Shot does not.

 

Concussive Tranquilizer with any blunderbuss by the way. Multiple hits for massive buff reduction is neat, and multiple Interrupt on Graze to go through layers of concentration are neat.

[SirMirrorcoat]

I will probably use the mortars when I don't have to engage or have too large groups. Wish there were more than 2 mortar style weapons... 

[thelee]

8 hours ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

How was Beastmaster so effective, you got bored with it? That sounds intriguing...

And Furyshaper, I have yet to figure out how to make it work. The range of the wards seems so small, Serafen (Beguiler/Furyshaper melee) could never really profit from the speed buff...
Any advice for that?

for beastmaster it's all about that (ranger) accuracy and that bonus AR. bonus accuracy is great for landing good spells for any MC. shifter boar/cat form are already extremely powerful, extreme accuracy makes it extremely easy to overcome possibly the main weakness early on on PotD which is a lack of tools for a shifter to overcome enemy AR (crits do a great job of doing that) or high defenses. stalker's bonus AR propels all shifter forms to heavy armor tier, and bear form to exceptional heavy armor, all with no recovery penalty and no AR weaknesses, and combined with autoscaling is quite a huge leg-up in early PotD survival, whereas normally you're stuck with limited amounts of vanilla heavy armor (which still has various AR weaknesses) or upgraded medium armor for much of the rough early-mid game. coupled with the bonus deflection and add in a woodskin at the start of the fight and formerly scary foes are barely hurting you. Family Pride, for example, is an extremely rough quest if you take it on relatively early and do a non-pacifist take, and I ended up stomping the bardattos and valeras into the ground without breaking a sweat, propelled almost solely on the back of my beastmaster. (i'm doing a SC shifter now and while it's still powerful especially with single-class ability progression, not having the bonus acc and AR really does make it a bit rougher by comparison. kind of hard to express how much of a difference just +1 AR can do, especially on bear form where it can likely put enemies from -50 to -75% damage malus, which is a halving of damage done)

 

ward ranges are limited, yes, so I had to periodically re-cast them to reposition at times. It was fine for me - for that build I typically didn't have barbarian abilities outside of frenzy for much of the game, so I felt free to re-cast wards. If wards are re-cast, the ward that gets vanished doesn't trigger the "destruction" penalty for the furyshaper.

Edited October 5, 2021 by thelee

[SirMirrorcoat]

50 minutes ago, thelee said:

for beastmaster it's all about that (ranger) accuracy and that bonus AR. bonus accuracy is great for landing good spells for any MC. shifter boar/cat form are already extremely powerful, extreme accuracy makes it extremely easy to overcome possibly the main weakness early on on PotD which is a lack of tools for a shifter to overcome enemy AR (crits do a great job of doing that) or high defenses. stalker's bonus AR propels all shifter forms to heavy armor tier, and bear form to exceptional heavy armor, all with no recovery penalty and no AR weaknesses, and combined with autoscaling is quite a huge leg-up in early PotD survival, whereas normally you're stuck with limited amounts of vanilla heavy armor (which still has various AR weaknesses) or upgraded medium armor for much of the rough early-mid game. coupled with the bonus deflection and add in a woodskin at the start of the fight and formerly scary foes are barely hurting you. Family Pride, for example, is an extremely rough quest if you take it on relatively early and do a non-pacifist take, and I ended up stomping the bardattos and valeras into the ground without breaking a sweat, propelled almost solely on the back of my beastmaster. (i'm doing a SC shifter now and while it's still powerful especially with single-class ability progression, not having the bonus acc and AR really does make it a bit rougher by comparison. kind of hard to express how much of a difference just +1 AR can do, especially on bear form where it can likely put enemies from -50 to -75% damage malus, which is a halving of damage done)

 

ward ranges are limited, yes, so I had to periodically re-cast them to reposition at times. It was fine for me - for that build I typically didn't have barbarian abilities outside of frenzy for much of the game, so I felt free to re-cast wards. If wards are re-cast, the ward that gets vanished doesn't trigger the "destruction" penalty for the furyshaper.

So, you did a Shifter/Stalker? That actually sounds pretty cool xD

[SirMirrorcoat]

@thelee How did your stats look for the Shifter-Stalker? Did you max PER or INT, or did you go for a balanced spread?
I am a bit torn between either going 15 across the board (RES/INT/PER need to be medium-high for me because talking stats) or lowering CON and/or MIG to bump PER and/or INT higher for this.

And yes, I will go for Shifter/Stalker now, that sounds really fancy
Also no armor effects in Spiritshift means I can savely go for Fire Godlike without FOMO

[SirMirrorcoat]

Looking at Druid and Ranger abilities, I feel a bit indecisive (or overwhelmed?) about what to pick from each tree, at least if I want to make good use of the pet. Will go for SC Stalker first, finish that and chances are very high I will go for a second run afterwards

[thelee]

2 hours ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

How did your stats look for the Shifter-Stalker? Did you max PER or INT, or did you go for a balanced spread?
I am a bit torn between either going 15 across the board (RES/INT/PER need to be medium-high for me because talking stats) or lowering CON and/or MIG to bump PER and/or INT higher for this.

it's been a while and it's in an older notepad so i'm not quite certain overall, but i'm almost 100% sure i was a hearth orlan who maxed perception (with white that wends), with intellect as second-highest stat (maybe at lowest 15, but probably 16).

21 perception is pretty much my standard for mainchar these days, because it makes megabosses so much easier. the endgame plan for a beastmaster is to take advantage of all that accuracy (up to +50) and spam embrace the earth talon on dorudugan and hauane o whe. don't need to worry about all the technical aspects of a megaboss fight if they're perma-paralyzed. (edit: it's a bit more complicated then that [you also need to debuff resolve especially], but +40-50 accuracy makes all the other math easier)

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

56 minutes ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

Looking at Druid and Ranger abilities, I feel a bit indecisive (or overwhelmed?) about what to pick from each tree, at least if I want to make good use of the pet. Will go for SC Stalker first, finish that and chances are very high I will go for a second run afterwards

my only specific recommendations are stalker's link (for +10 acc and engagament), marked prey, and hunter's claw; that's a general recommendation for all rangers.

[NotDumbEnough]

10 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Fire in the Hole with Driving Flight is not only great for Whirling Strikes (it's spectacular actually). It also gives a lot of stacks with Hunter's Claw with only one shot (jumps add stacks, too). The Full Attack of Hunter's Claw allows to use a ranged wepon in the offhand.
So - melee + mortar def. works. If you use a melee weapon in the main hand you also keep engagment. Mortar in main hand + melee weapon or Tuotilo's Palm in offhand would also work, but then you'd have no engagement (bit of a bummer imo).

Note that Concussive Tranquilizer does work with the AoE of mortars which is great (AoE interrupt and stripping off buffs) - but Wounding Shot does not.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought melee+ranged weapon combos didn't work for full attacks. I think I tried that with a Flail+Blunderbuss Rogue in the past, I remember that I could either do a Gambit with melee or ranged but not both.

[SirMirrorcoat]

So, yeah, I am reading/watching vids up and down about Ranger and Shifter right now.

15/10/15/20/15/15 seems like a not so bad idea. Won't be my main tank anyway, so that is fine.

[masterty66]

14 hours ago, Boeroer said:

By the way: Stunning Shots with a SC Stalker could be a cool passive I guess? Best used with fast weapon though like daggers or hatchets etc. 

If you cast Binding Roots on enemies and then use Vion-Ceth you can get a +30% dmg bonus. With max Religion (pretend you worship Galawain) you can also use Xoti's Sickle to great effect. It doesn't matter how you kill enemies (doesn't have to be with the sickle) to get the bonus dmg stacks. And it climbs up to +60%. So one hatchet +30% dmg, the other with up to +60% and good attack speed which might let you interrupt with Stunning Shots often. Also a bit more defense. Sounds good?

Lover's Embrace + Pukestabber is even faster than hatchets and more accurate. If you hit a target from stealth you can apply True Love's Kiss which unlocks Predator's Sense. 

Dual Battle Axe with Bleeding Cuts is pretty great with Whirling Strikes (makes the most out of the Bond in terms of damage). Bleeding Cuts unlock Predator's Sense. 

A dual wielder can also receive Reaping Knives from a fellow cipher and be good with them. 

And of course the omnipresent Morning Star is good because the AC's "Takedown Combo" targets fortitude. Takedown Combo works best with a two handed weapon - if you want to profit from it yourself (you don't have to though). Saru Sichr's poison DoT unlocks Predator's Sense, too.

Stalker with Ngati's Tusk sounds nice as well (Hunter of Hunters with max Survival is really, really good).

Wait binding roots unlocks Vion-Ceth's bonuses? I actually never thought about that before. That's a really neat trick. I always wondered what the point of that hatchet was as it seemed really niche. I never thought to use a Ranger to set up the debuff. That's pretty cool! 

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought melee+ranged weapon combos didn't work for full attacks. I think I tried that with a Flail+Blunderbuss Rogue in the past, I remember that I could either do a Gambit with melee or ranged but not both.

Indeed, but Whirling Strike isn't coded as a normal full attack and do work. Maybe Heart of Fury too.