Do you even *need* more than one frontliner? (If that one frontliner is a Fighter)

[SirMirrorcoat]

So, yeah, I am having a tactical dilemma. (not the Tactician one)

Unbroken/Trickster can Hold. The. Line. so well, that my whole backline is save like a baby in her mother's arms. And the second frontliner in my party (Eder - also Swashbuckler) is good at mage-killing, sure, but nothing compared to Maia+Ishiza.
Sure, Eder can also take a beating if **** hits the fan, but with Maia so far there has not been a situation where **** *does* hit the fan.
And Eder is as position-micromanagement intensive as Maia+Ishiza are, while not providing the same ridiciulous level of single-target damage Maia+Ishiza do. Not that Eder does bad damage, not at all, but Maia is on a whole 'nother level.

And of the NPCs, none are THAT squishy that the few straglers that break engagement and manage to get through to my backline proof too much of a danger, as long as I don't try to punch above my weight.

Of course, if I want to run in without thinking too much about positioning, more tanky units are better, but once you use positioning and the 'terrain' to your advantage, more than 1 tank seems a bit like a waste.
Unless that tank is only tank in a secondary role. I could imagine a Herald or Templar could actually add a lot of potential to a frontline.

[Boeroer]

Often you don't need more than one - but in some later encounters you will face quite a lot of rushers (rogues and barbs mostly) who just zip right past your tank buddy and are quite sturdy, too. (looking at the Splintered Reef for example). Or your UB/Trickster gets hit by an Arcane Dampener (say hello to the scriveners in the Drowned Barrows) and he suddenly looses all his tankyness. In situations like that it's good to not have the 1 tank + 4 squishy guys setup. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Boeroer

[masterty66]

Eder can be built out to have a crap load of engagement slots. But even with that, there will be some enemies that do zip by your frontline like Boeroer said. So it can sometimes be advisable to have another character who can baby sit the backline and take care of anything that gets past Eder or whoever your main tank is. 

I generally like to have one more tanky character who soaks up a lot of enagements and then another melee character who isn't built out purely to be an engagement specialist but who can maybe engage a few enemies if needed and can take a few hits while dishing it out too. An example of this might be like Eder as a Swashbuckler who is specced for engagement slots and uses Kapa Tanga + Cadlu Scalth and takes all the engagement talents and then Serafen as a Barb with Willbreaker to debuff enemies but also able to attract a bit of enemy attention without dying if anything breaks past Eder. 

Summons can sometimes serve this role as well. A few Ogres summoned from Pallegina as a Herald can soak up a lot of enemy actions.

I also prefer that my backline not be completely squishy unless I'm doing some sort of gimmick build that needs to be. So having Aloth as a backliner for example...he'll have some defensive spells at the ready if he gets rushed even if his main role is to do damage and apply CC. Or Maia if she's a Ranger/Rogue I'll give her escape to reposition if needed or if she's a Geomancer I'll have her have some defensive spells ready as well so she doesn't get crushed if she gets enemy attention.

Ever since Poe1's DLC it's been my preference to have a backline that can defend itself a little bit if needed because WM1 & 2 love to throw enemies at you from all angles and tank and spank on POTD in that is not easy :). 

Imo if you're gonna have a glass cannon character that character better be a hell of a cannon and you better take every precaution to CC or engage enemies so they can do their trick. But most classes will have at least some minor way of defending themselves even if they're focused on offense. It's always good to not neglect defensive abilities completely. Even something as simple as Escape on your Rogue can save that character's life in certain situations. 

[Ouroboros226]

The third most difficult fight in the entire game after Gorecci street triple crown and the drake, is the mist island bridge with Fampyrs imo. In that fight you get swarmed, rushed, flanked etc.  

IMO the safest build in the game Vs that encounter and most others, is 3 beefy characters of any kind, including tanks. 1-2 "squishies" in the middle of them. Thing is - in my experience this game rewards you heavily, and punshes you minimally - for STACKING your party CLOSE to each other. 

I noticed that the game is significantly easier on all difficulties, if you just keep your entire party hugging each other close. Because soooooooo many of the heals and buffs are very low AOE range. Edit: I actually hoped the game would reward stuff like splitting up, multiple chokeholds, send one solo etc. Buuuuut ... and feel free to disagree. It's always a huge advantage to just keep everyone tightly stacked.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Ouroboros226

[SirMirrorcoat]

11 hours ago, masterty66 said:

Eder can be built out to have a crap load of engagement slots. But even with that, there will be some enemies that do zip by your frontline like Boeroer said. So it can sometimes be advisable to have another character who can baby sit the backline and take care of anything that gets past Eder or whoever your main tank is. 

I generally like to have one more tanky character who soaks up a lot of enagements and then another melee character who isn't built out purely to be an engagement specialist but who can maybe engage a few enemies if needed and can take a few hits while dishing it out too. An example of this might be like Eder as a Swashbuckler who is specced for engagement slots and uses Kapa Tanga + Cadlu Scalth and takes all the engagement talents and then Serafen as a Barb with Willbreaker to debuff enemies but also able to attract a bit of enemy attention without dying if anything breaks past Eder. 

Summons can sometimes serve this role as well. A few Ogres summoned from Pallegina as a Herald can soak up a lot of enemy actions.

I also prefer that my backline not be completely squishy unless I'm doing some sort of gimmick build that needs to be. So having Aloth as a backliner for example...he'll have some defensive spells at the ready if he gets rushed even if his main role is to do damage and apply CC. Or Maia if she's a Ranger/Rogue I'll give her escape to reposition if needed or if she's a Geomancer I'll have her have some defensive spells ready as well so she doesn't get crushed if she gets enemy attention.

Ever since Poe1's DLC it's been my preference to have a backline that can defend itself a little bit if needed because WM1 & 2 love to throw enemies at you from all angles and tank and spank on POTD in that is not easy :). 

Imo if you're gonna have a glass cannon character that character better be a hell of a cannon and you better take every precaution to CC or engage enemies so they can do their trick. But most classes will have at least some minor way of defending themselves even if they're focused on offense. It's always good to not neglect defensive abilities completely. Even something as simple as Escape on your Rogue can save that character's life in certain situations. 

So far I use Escape more often to save anOTHER unit than the unit using Escape. Escape+Mule Kick FTW Or Into the Fray, depending on whether it is 1 enemy or multiple on my squishies.

 

Now I am questioning my 2 Swashbucklers again xD

Is Unbroken even worth it when I don't use a shield? 

Edited October 1, 2021 by SirMirrorcoat

[yabadaba]

1 hour ago, Ouroboros226 said:

I noticed that the game is significantly easier on all difficulties, if you just keep your entire party hugging each other close. Because soooooooo many of the heals and buffs are very low AOE range. Edit: I actually hoped the game would reward stuff like splitting up, multiple chokeholds, send one solo etc. Buuuuut ... and feel free to disagree. It's always a huge advantage to just keep everyone tightly stacked.

You're right, I learned that early on when trying Gorecci Street and the dig site. I always draw the drake, boars and panthers from the dig site up the stairs near that ladder on the upper left part of the map. You can stack up and fight one or two enemies at a time. 

To be fair though, it is more realistic for stacking to be rewarded. Furthermore, to make it unrewarding would probably take some extremely hacky or artificial game design decisions IMO. I think stacking being rewarding isn't only rewarding due to the game design, it's just a fact of reality that when a few individuals are fighting a larger group (as with most encounters in the game), sticking close together is just plain better. It just seems like a truth on a level above game design, a 'meta truth' that the game is bound by beyond programming.

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

On the practical side, I have managed to make peeling off the group work on occasion but it's so risky and often makes me reload in frustration when it doesn't work out. I was playing a dual dagger Berzerker/Streetfighter that would escape into the backline to gank a priest/mage here and there and then escape back next to Eder once it was done. It did feel kind of 'forced' though, it was easier to just tell Maia to delete them with the Red Hand and have my marauder shoulder to shoulder with Eder blocking the way to the backline.

[SirMirrorcoat]

I read up on other Not-so-old threads about tanking. I'm a stick with double Swashbuckler. Me Unbroken/Trickster, Eder as Devoted/Rogue. 

Only wondering how much damage I would lose making Maia a Geomancer instead of Scout... 

[SirMirrorcoat]

Is a Fire Godlike a good race for a Unbroken/Trickster? I would like it for dialogue, but am worried how much I am losing on a tank if I don't have a helmet... 

Or maybe Moon Moon

Edited October 1, 2021 by SirMirrorcoat

[mjo2138]

In addition to what is already mentioned about frontliners,  I agree that often times 1 is enough. That means the rest of the party has two important functions (hard CCing and AOEs on the mobs) - a good offense is the best defense! For buffs, I would prioritize Armor Reduction Buffs, accuracy, or perception, with armor being the most important.

What's more, make sure you have 1-2 flankers who are actively destroying mages and archers in mobs' backlines. When tough mobs rush you, your best friend is often Resolve afflictions (frightened is good, terrify even better) , as many mobs do not have resistances (I am thinking of Fampyrs!) 

As for Fire godlike, that is a good question. I am not sure how long the racial +AR buff is, and it could be fun if it lasts forever. On the other hand, having access to the +10 percent crit chance/dmg hat is nice, but so are the racial bonuses for Firegodlike. Thantanos headress is amazing, too, as it provides +5 accuracy +5 % dmg to flanked targets. Once your Swashbucker has persistent distraction, this is guaranteed.  I am playing a Death Godlike swashbuckler now, (POTD Solo), but I honestly miss the versatility of having helmet options. In, sum, these are all minor bonuses, so I wouldn't over think it haha

[thelee]

I think difficulty matters here a lot because of extra/upgraded mobs on PotD? What is OP playing on?

Even if fighters get extreme engagement counts, on PotD+upscaling hold, in practice for me positioning makes it extremely hard for a single beefy character to protect all the squishies (and Into The Fray has terrible hit rate early on), unless there's a doorway. Two beefy characters can generally suffice though. i generally tend to slot in a third character, while not really a tank or off-tank, can at least survive some melee punishment for a little bit for cases like the fampyr fights mentioned upthread or when you're just being flanked from all directions in a street encounter, so they can keep the even squishier party members still standing.

 

6 hours ago, yabadaba said:

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

On the practical side, I have managed to make peeling off the group work on occasion but it's so risky and often makes me reload in frustration when it doesn't work out.

I occasionally do this, but only really mid-late game when the person I'm peeling off actually has enough tools at their disposal to survive being so isolated, or if it's temporary. Most common example is simply just a rogue or other melee-dps type diving straight for a critical caster, though sometimes in some dungeons I just need a character to take an alternate route to engage the enemy because they're blocked off and I don't have leap or something. (though now that i'm using druid more, druid has enough close-range spells worth using that i find myself leap-ing or running around on their own more often for optimal targeting)

but again, only mid-late game really. early on, my rogue trying to take out a skeletal sorcerer will get hit by one arrow and lose half their health and they don't have any escape or evasion skills. only rarely worth it.

[SirMirrorcoat]

Wizards would be the obvious choice to me for someone that normally stays in the back but can hold their own if targetted by dangerous melees.
Maybe Druid? Haven't played far enough with Tekehu to know how good Delemgan's Form or Weather The Storm are, but Nature's Balm saved me a bunch of times already.

[SirMirrorcoat]

@thelee I play on PotD, with both CP and Balance mods installed

All upscaled

Edited October 1, 2021 by SirMirrorcoat

[masterty66]

8 hours ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

So far I use Escape more often to save anOTHER unit than the unit using Escape. Escape+Mule Kick FTW Or Into the Fray, depending on whether it is 1 enemy or multiple on my squishies.

 

Now I am questioning my 2 Swashbucklers again xD

Is Unbroken even worth it when I don't use a shield? 

I definitely use escape in numerous ways and not just for defense. It's a great offensive tool to hit the backline of enemies and to your point it can be nice for repositioning to save another squishy as well. It's just a great talent imo.

[thelee]

9 hours ago, SirMirrorcoat said:

Is Unbroken even worth it when I don't use a shield? 

FYI in case it wasn't clear, unbroken still gets bonus engagement and bonus to engagement attacks even without a shield. I've actually contemplated using unbroken without a shield for this reason (though usually i prefer blackjacket).

[thelee]

33 minutes ago, masterty66 said:

I definitely use escape in numerous ways and not just for defense. It's a great offensive tool to hit the backline of enemies and to your point it can be nice for repositioning to save another squishy as well. It's just a great talent imo.

a fun trick i did early on was use it in conjunction with a large shield modal. the immobility doesn't matter much when you can hop around the battlefield and you get huuuge defenses as a result (massive deflection bonus from large shield, temporary even larger boost from escape, plus the massive damage reduction from the modal). good for tanking in a pinch (or on a character like eder, just a great tanking solution when facing down a bunch of enemy rogue archers).

[SirMirrorcoat]

6 minutes ago, thelee said:

a fun trick i did early on was use it in conjunction with a large shield modal. the immobility doesn't matter much when you can hop around the battlefield and you get huuuge defenses as a result (massive deflection bonus from large shield, temporary even larger boost from escape, plus the massive damage reduction from the modal). good for tanking in a pinch (or on a character like eder, just a great tanking solution when facing down a bunch of enemy rogue archers).

Yeah, my Unbroken/Trickster jumps around a lot with Escape. Or jumped, as I will make it a Battlemage now xD aside from mobility issues, seems like it's a lot more versatile than Trickster. And I still have Eder to jump around like a rabbit on Speed.

[NotDumbEnough]

To answer the title, no, you don't. In fact I frequently make do with 0 frontliners. Just bring a Priest to use BDD on whoever's getting hammered and that's all you need. Particularly on higher difficulties most fights are about alpha strikes, i.e. since you usually get to use stealth, 90% of the time you get the jump on the enemy. There are a few fights where you can't do this (shipboard fights, scripted events, boss battles) but mostly it is a matter of neutralizing most dangerous enemy targets in the first 5 seconds or so of combat, then ending it before they can recover. Fighters aren't particularly helpful here, Rogues and Rangers deal superior single target damage while casters generally take care of the actual alpha striking (e.g. a Rymrgand's Call + WoMC + Great Maelstrom combo from stealth). If you're fighting particularly difficult enemies that can't be taken care of like that, you bring Paladins, Chanters, Ciphers for sustained combat.

[Faraleth]

I dont feel safe without 2 honestly. and also too much caster means too much micromanagement. at least melees can be 90% automatized

[SirMirrorcoat]

Even my melee I heavily micro all the time. If I didn't want micro, I wouldn't play CRPGs xD

[Haljamar]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:00 PM, SirMirrorcoat said:

So, yeah, I am having a tactical dilemma. (not the Tactician one)

Unbroken/Trickster can Hold. The. Line. so well, that my whole backline is save like a baby in her mother's arms. And the second frontliner in my party (Eder - also Swashbuckler) is good at mage-killing, sure, but nothing compared to Maia+Ishiza.
Sure, Eder can also take a beating if **** hits the fan, but with Maia so far there has not been a situation where **** *does* hit the fan.
And Eder is as position-micromanagement intensive as Maia+Ishiza are, while not providing the same ridiciulous level of single-target damage Maia+Ishiza do. Not that Eder does bad damage, not at all, but Maia is on a whole 'nother level.

And of the NPCs, none are THAT squishy that the few straglers that break engagement and manage to get through to my backline proof too much of a danger, as long as I don't try to punch above my weight.

Of course, if I want to run in without thinking too much about positioning, more tanky units are better, but once you use positioning and the 'terrain' to your advantage, more than 1 tank seems a bit like a waste.
Unless that tank is only tank in a secondary role. I could imagine a Herald or Templar could actually add a lot of potential to a frontline.

Multiple frontliners are important. Something like a warcaller alongside a melee cipher are pretty solid. I beat the game recently with cipher/troubadour, devoted/troubadour, animist/troubadour, wizard/troubadour, and assassin/beckoner.

[SirMirrorcoat]

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