The All things Political Topic - The Night never knew that its end was fleet.

[Gfted1]

Iranian Nuclear Scientist Confirmed to Have Been Killed by AI-Controlled Gun.

I dont know why, but the fact that it also self destructed afterwards made me lol. 10 years to full on autonomous murderbots? We already have them?

[Gorth]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

@Gorth

Gorthfuscious whats the general view from Oz citizens about the decision to buy the nuclear subs from the US and UK instead of France. Whats your media saying and do people support the government decision ?

To be honest, my exposure to "real" Australians is a bit limited. Working in a multinational and very cosmopolitan environment, local politics is less of a concern if it doesn't affect the economy. But the Aussies I do know are mostly indifferent. Keep in mind the supremacy of the Murdoch media group (which includes Fox News and Sky News), part of the population are your mix of QAnon cultists, anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, bible waving enthusiasts etc. and the other part is the disgruntled, but also disillusioned Australia, who feels the fight against government corruption and the police state methods applied against the few independent media that actually do exist, is soul crushing. In short, I'm not sure it even makes headlines anywhere. Real estate prices making it impossible for young families to own their own home is way more of a concern these days when listening to people talk. The complete collapse of a "normal" economy in the wake of covid meant the expected bubble burst and depression (with a slight reset of real estate prices) in 2020 didn't happen the way it was expected.

[Gorth]

Monty Python would've been proud, if it wasn't for that actual quite serious ramifications...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-58629592

More than 250 people seeking relocation to the UK - many of whom are in hiding - were mistakenly copied into an email from the Ministry of Defence.

Their email addresses could be seen by all recipients, showing people's names and some associated profile pictures.

The MoD has apologised in a statement.

The email was sent to interpreters who remain in Afghanistan or have been able to get to other countries.

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

If its been going on for decades, whats triggered the hit squad for you this time?

Also it doesnt matter if civilians are killed  by the US and its allies by a mistaken target or a legitimate target but with civilians in the vicinity the response will always be the same by the Zora\Comrade brigade. " Outrage and disgust " because ostensibly innocents die and this bothers them

But other countries can kill innocents in the ME and you  wont hear anything from most of the world when it comes to outrage . Russia bombed the city of Aleppo to the ground in Syria to help Assad win the war, thousands of Syrian civilians died , hospitals were directly targeted due to the Russian intervention and Putin doesnt even bother to justify it and it wasnt  a mistake unlike this tragedy. So yes the inconsistency with how certain  people respond to events when Western countries are involved in collateral damage is nothing new 

You want to see something truly jarring, take a look at these images from Aleppo during the Russian intervention

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2016/oct/11/destruction-in-aleppo-in-pictures

 

[Elerond]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Also it doesnt matter if civilians are killed  by the US and its allies by a mistaken target or a legitimate target but with civilians in the vicinity the response will always be the same by the Zora\Comrade brigade. " Outrage and disgust " because ostensibly innocents die and this bothers them

But other countries can kill innocents in the ME and you  wont hear anything from most of the world when it comes to outrage . Russia bombed the city of Aleppo to the ground in Syria to help Assad win the war, thousands of Syrian civilians died , hospitals were directly targeted due to the Russian intervention and Putin doesnt even bother to justify it and it wasnt  a mistake unlike this tragedy. So yes the inconsistency with how certain  people respond to events when Western countries are involved in collateral damage is nothing new 

You want to see something truly jarring, take a look at these images from Aleppo during the Russian intervention

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2016/oct/11/destruction-in-aleppo-in-pictures

 

There are trade, economic and political sanctions against Russia because of its actions, where non-exist towards USA or its allies

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, Elerond said:

There are trade, economic and political sanctions against Russia because of its actions, where non-exist towards USA or its allies

Not for Aleppo and the death of thousands of civilians for the Russia bombing campaign

https://www.rferl.org/a/eu-softens-sanctions-threat-against-russia-over-syria-aleppo-bombings/28066644.html

Maybe you can post links confirming these sanctions ? Also my point was more about the " outrage " commonly expressed by Western mistakes but Russia killing of civilians in Syria doesnt raise much concern

Its inconsistent with how some people choose to respond 

[BruceVC]

11 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Iranian Nuclear Scientist Confirmed to Have Been Killed by AI-Controlled Gun.

I dont know why, but the fact that it also self destructed afterwards made me lol. 10 years to full on autonomous murderbots? We already have them?

Interesting technology, its got some real advantages. But I wonder if its the US or Israel who  created it?

[Gfted1]

Almost certainly Israel. We fund all their good stuff.

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, Elerond said:

There are trade, economic and political sanctions against Russia because of its actions, where non-exist towards USA or its allies

There are definitely some anti US sanctions. Russia has some, China has quite a lot and IIRC Iran still has an open warrant for Scott Lustig, who shot down IranAir655. Nowhere near as publicised though, and not as effective either.

It's a typical Bruce argument anyway, since the Coalition killed at least four times as many civilians 'accidentally' in Mosul than Russia killed 'deliberately' in Aleppo, at around the same time, and that had basically no press coverage, let alone political opprobrium or sanctions. Indeed, the coalition likely killed more civilians in Raqqa too than Russia did in Aleppo, and it is a fifth the size.

[BruceVC]

52 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

There are definitely some anti US sanctions. Russia has some, China has quite a lot and IIRC Iran still has an open warrant for Scott Lustig, who shot down IranAir655. Nowhere near as publicised though, and not as effective either.

It's a typical Bruce argument anyway, since the Coalition killed at least four times as many civilians 'accidentally' in Mosul than Russia killed 'deliberately' in Aleppo, at around the same time, and that had basically no press coverage, let alone political opprobrium or sanctions. Indeed, the coalition likely killed more civilians in Raqqa too than Russia did in Aleppo, and it is a fifth the size.

Links? You understand if I dont take your word for it especially with the "  since the Coalition killed at least four times as many civilians 'accidentally' in Mosul than Russia killed 'deliberately' in Aleppo "

Its an absurd suggestion that the Iraq invasion was conducted in the same way as the entire Russian bombing campaign in Syria. But I am keen to read your evidence on Mosul, I am will make it easy for you 

Also which city in Iraq did the US bomb to the  ground like Aleppo, I must have missed that one?

Edited September 21, 2021 by BruceVC

[rjshae]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Links? You understand if I dont take your word for it especially with the "  since the Coalition killed at least four times as many civilians 'accidentally' in Mosul than Russia killed 'deliberately' in Aleppo "

Its an absurd suggestion that the Iraq invasion was conducted in the same way as the entire Russian bombing campaign in Syria. But I am keen to read your evidence on Mosul, I am will make it easy for you 

Also which city in Iraq did the US bomb to the  ground like Aleppo, I must have missed that one?

The actual number of civilian casualties in both conflicts can only be estimated, but those estimates are typically in the six figures: the estimates for Iraq are ~200,000 and for Syria are ~500,000. Typically the US uses more expensive precision weapons that limit damage to infrastructure, and probably to civilians to some degree. They're both horrific conflicts, comparable to the Spanish civil war. Iraq will probably bounce back better because of its extensive oil resources.

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, rjshae said:

The actual number of civilian casualties in both conflicts can only be estimated, but those estimates are typically in the six figures: the estimates for Iraq are ~200,000 and for Syria are ~500,000. Typically the US uses more expensive precision weapons that limit damage to infrastructure, and probably to civilians to some degree. They're both horrific conflicts, comparable to the Spanish civil war. Iraq will probably bounce back better because of its extensive oil resources.

Thanks, I haven't  done extensive research because the accurate  numbers are difficult to get but particularly in Syria . But Zoras comments that " more Iraqi's died in Mosul than Aleppo " is nonsense. Aleppo was razed to the ground by the Russians and they have never  been concerned with collateral damage. Russia did the same thing in Chechnya where they razed the capital city of Grozny to the ground and rebuilt a new city 

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/destruction-of-grozny 

But also the entire strategy in Iraq and Syria was different. The US  invaded Iraq and spent years trying to ensure it could become a functional state, not once did they rely on their air force to destroy any Iraq city. Like the battles of Fallujah. The US could easily have done what Russia did in Syria and just bombed Fallujah to the ground in order to defeat the various militant groups but civilian casualties do matter to them. Of course I am not denying that their were several cases of individual soldiers and military subcontractors being involved in war crimes or killing civilians but that wasnt the official US and its allies policy

In Syria the Russians went in and just bombed all and any target they wanted, irrespective of civilian deaths. And the war crimes committed by Assad, the Russian ally, are even worse with cluster bombs and the usage of chemical weapons 

So the two conflicts were never conducted in the same way, the Russian intervention was much worse and callous. But yes both conflicts were bad but not the same in the overall strategy 

[Zoraptor]

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence Bruce. If you think that the Russians killed lots of civilians it's up to you to prove it, and anecdote != data.

The US did 'bomb Fallujah to the ground'. OK, they mostly used artillery to do it rather than aircraft, but so what. That was the whole point of telling civilians to leave and declaring it a closed military zone. Hardly matters whether you use precision weapons targeted solely at militants if the net effect is killing as many civilians as an indiscriminate attack. About 1% of Fallujah's civilian population was killed in roughly 3 months. About 1% of Aleppo's civilian population died too, over 5 years. To put it in perspective, when the decidedly imprecise Iraqi army retook Fallujah from ISIS in 2016 the estimate of civilian deaths is... ~0.05% of its population, or one twentieth the number the US caused. And that army was meant to be a rabble of whacky shia dervishes looking for some sunni babies to turf out of incubators and impale on their helmets while flagellating themselves and chanting Ya Ali.

Same thing for Aleppo, the total number of civilian casualties after the Russian intervention is way way lower than you'd suspect from the coverage, about half the 5 year average for the full battle. Conversely, the casualties in Mosul and Raqqa (proportionately, since it's also way smaller than the other two) are way way higher than you'd think from the reporting. The total number of civilian deaths for 2016 in Aleppo- including the nearly 1000 killed by the rebels using decidedly non high tech/ aerial mortars, snipers and rockets- is 'only' ~3000. The number killed in Mosul by coalition airstrikes alone is just under 6000 per Amnesty International, and as with Fallujah (and Aleppo for that matter) an awful lot more were killed by bog standard artillery than airstrikes. The independently assessed upper limit estimate of civilian casualties caused by Russia in 4+ years is ~6000, per Airwars.

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence Bruce. If you think that the Russians killed lots of civilians it's up to you to prove it, and anecdote != data.

The US did 'bomb Fallujah to the ground'. OK, they mostly used artillery to do it rather than aircraft, but so what. That was the whole point of telling civilians to leave and declaring it a closed military zone. Hardly matters whether you use precision weapons targeted solely at militants if the net effect is killing as many civilians as an indiscriminate attack. About 1% of Fallujah's civilian population was killed in roughly 3 months. About 1% of Aleppo's civilian population died too, over 5 years. To put it in perspective, when the decidedly imprecise Iraqi army retook Fallujah from ISIS in 2016 the estimate of civilian deaths is... ~0.05% of its population, or one twentieth the number the US caused. And that army was meant to be a rabble of whacky shia dervishes looking for some sunni babies to turf out of incubators and impale on their helmets while flagellating themselves and chanting Ya Ali.

Same thing for Aleppo, the total number of civilian casualties after the Russian intervention is way way lower than you'd suspect from the coverage, about half the 5 year average for the full battle. Conversely, the casualties in Mosul and Raqqa (proportionately, since it's also way smaller than the other two) are way way higher than you'd think from the reporting. The total number of civilian deaths for 2016 in Aleppo- including the nearly 1000 killed by the rebels using decidedly non high tech/ aerial mortars, snipers and rockets- is 'only' ~3000. The number killed in Mosul by coalition airstrikes alone is just under 6000 per Amnesty International, and as with Fallujah (and Aleppo for that matter) an awful lot more were killed by bog standard artillery than airstrikes. The independently assessed upper limit estimate of civilian casualties caused by Russia in 4+ years is ~6000, per Airwars.

Im not going to continue with this debate, its not something I think either of us really want to

We living in a world where people are dying everyday from the virus and I realized yesterday " why am I debating with someone on the Internet the number of dead civilians in any war " 

It doesnt seem right or have any purpose but thanks for responding anyway 

 

[ComradeYellow]

What's funny is South Africa is now part of BRICS, has an independent foreign policy, is no longer part of the Angloshpere (U.S., Australia, U.K., Canada), and its worlds largest trading partner is....China.  Yet Bruce comes off sounding like some Englishman from the mid-20th century xD.  Ye long for white colonialism of yore, God Save the Queen!  *rollseyes*

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, ComradeYellow said:

What's funny is South Africa is now part of BRICS, has an independent foreign policy, is no longer part of the Angloshpere (U.S., Australia, U.K., Canada), and its worlds largest trading partner is....China.  Yet Bruce comes off sounding like some Englishman from the mid-20th century xD.  Ye long for white colonialism of yore, God Save the Queen!  *rollseyes*

Its not inconsistent at all if you realize that BRICS is just talk shop and not a real ideological union with any trade benefits or any economic agreed on trade deals 

SA is also part of the Commonwealth, like most African countries, so that disputes your view that SA is not part the Anglosphere. And you realize the UK queen is the symbolic head of the Commonwealth 

Sorry Comrade, better luck next time 

Edited September 22, 2021 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/14/facebook-documents-show-how-toxic-instagram-is-for-teens-wsj.html

I just saw this on CNN and Im not convinced blaming FB for Instagram " being toxic to young girls " is helpful

Sometimes this well meaning liberal overreach boggles my mind, maybe we should ban young girls  from using the Internet, reading any beauty magazines  and watching all movies because that will definitely help reduce " toxicity " ?

 

[Gorth]

When legislation completely fails and how profit always comes before safety. It's an hour long, but worth watching some of the dirty laundry of Boeing and the FAA being aired.

 

[Gorth]

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58652249

Consumers should throw away their Chinese phones and avoid buying new ones, Lithuania’s Defence Ministry has warned.

A report by its National Cyber Security Centre tested 5G mobiles from Chinese manufacturers.

It claimed that one Xiaomi phone had built-in censorship tools while another Huawei model had security flaws.

Huawei said no user data is sent externally and Xiaomi said it does not censor communications.

 

Sounds like something from an old Soviet movie... except it's 2021.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58652249

Consumers should throw away their Chinese phones and avoid buying new ones, Lithuania’s Defence Ministry has warned.

A report by its National Cyber Security Centre tested 5G mobiles from Chinese manufacturers.

It claimed that one Xiaomi phone had built-in censorship tools while another Huawei model had security flaws.

Huawei said no user data is sent externally and Xiaomi said it does not censor communications.

 

Sounds like something from an old Soviet movie... except it's 2021.

Yes the "backdoor " access in several Huawei products like routers and switches was identified by the US several years ago and is real. Thats why many countries aren't  prepared to invest in Huawei 5G technology like the UK 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/huawei-to-be-removed-from-uk-5g-networks-by-2027

When I was working  in JHB we had a Huawei  business unit and I spoke to the program manager about the overall performance of Huawei compared to the established players in this  field like Cisco, Juniper, Fortinet  and others. So I was interested in the real technical reality of Huawei and how their routing and switching technology work and he would know as he sells their equipment and he use to sell the other technologies so I consider him well informed and objective 

Anyway he said its works fine and delivers what it is suppose to do and he highlighted how hard working and competitive the Huawei engineers and their sales consultants are. He said it lacks some security features that Cisco would have but typically you would only need this with a high security environment like a bank or government institution. So I dont believe this " backdoor " security risk was what the owners of Huawei originally  wanted to create, I think this was forced on them by the CCP with their irrational paranoia and cyber-espionage  objectives

But the outcome is sadly the same for Huawei, you cant trust their equipment in any environment where you require guaranteed data security

So it doesnt surprise me that their phones have similar security problems and its a pity because I do think they a good company who created a range of worthwhile products 

 

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Yes the "backdoor " access in several Huawei products like routers and switches was identified by the US several years ago and is real. Thats why many countries aren't  prepared to invest in Huawei 5G technology like the UK 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/huawei-to-be-removed-from-uk-5g-networks-by-2027

Do you ever bother reading the stuff you link Bruce?

Quote

Technical experts at the NCSC reviewed the consequences of the sanctions and concluded the company will need to do a major reconfiguration of its supply chain as it will no longer have access to the technology on which it currently relies and there are no alternatives which we have sufficient confidence in. They found the new restrictions make it impossible to continue to guarantee the security of Huawei equipment in the future.

ie the reason for the lack of security guarantees is... US sanctions on Huawei.

Perfect circular argument, we have to ban Huawei because we're banning selling them the equipment that would allow us to buy from them.

FTR, no security backdoors in Huawei have ever actually been identified, it's entirely assertion that they exist. Cisco... not so much. Indeed, as per above the reason for Huawei being banned is the lack of NSA backdoors being present, not the proven presence of Chinese ones.

(Are there Chinese backdoors? Maybe, maybe even probably- but there definitely are backdoors in the alternatives)

Edited September 23, 2021 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

20 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Do you ever bother reading the stuff you link Bruce?

ie the reason for the lack of security guarantees is... US sanctions on Huawei.

Perfect circular argument, we have to ban Huawei because we're banning selling them the equipment that would allow us to buy from them.

FTR, no security backdoors in Huawei have ever actually been identified, it's entirely assertion that they exist. Cisco... not so much. Indeed, as per above the reason for Huawei being banned is the lack of NSA backdoors being present, not the proven presence of Chinese ones.

(Are there Chinese backdoors? Maybe, maybe even probably- but there definitely are backdoors in the alternatives)

Its not maybe, its definitely. And please post the links where Cisco and other products have been found to have intentional " back doors " ....it shoudnt be hard if its true ?

https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/us-finds-huawei-has-backdoor-access-to-mobile-networks-globally-report-says/

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/30/18523701/huawei-vodafone-italy-security-backdoors-vulnerabilities-routers-core-network-wide-area-local

 

[BruceVC]

48 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Do you ever bother reading the stuff you link Bruce?

ie the reason for the lack of security guarantees is... US sanctions on Huawei.

Perfect circular argument, we have to ban Huawei because we're banning selling them the equipment that would allow us to buy from them.

FTR, no security backdoors in Huawei have ever actually been identified, it's entirely assertion that they exist. Cisco... not so much. Indeed, as per above the reason for Huawei being banned is the lack of NSA backdoors being present, not the proven presence of Chinese ones.

(Are there Chinese backdoors? Maybe, maybe even probably- but there definitely are backdoors in the alternatives)

I realized something which I must admit, I do acknowledge the US has some  " backdoors " due to Prism and I support this because of the purpose of Prism and how the NSA utilizes it to ensure national security

But its not the same as the " backdoors " that the CCP use for cyber-espionage. I am hoping you can see the difference but it would be remiss of me to deny this as they do exist to provide some access through how the OSI protocol model works 

So you not wrong but the question should be " who do you trust more with your data, the US or China " ?

Most people would say the US 

[majestic]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

And please post the links where Cisco and other products have been found to have intentional " back doors " ....it shoudnt be hard if its true ?

Nice way to weasle out of it. Intentional, lol. Yeah, so CISCO doesn't actively implant backdoors into their products, they just send them over to the NSA to do that for them before they're shipped out...

Oh, wait, sorry, the NSA "intercepts" CISCO shipments and does that. So it's not intentional.

Either way, if you're not from the US, you can buy real US backdoors or alleged Chinese back doors that most likely exist anyway. Where you you want your data to go today?

  

39 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But its not the same as the " backdoors " that the CCP use for cyber-espionage. I am hoping you can see the difference but it would be remiss of me to deny this as they do exist to provide some access through how the OSI protocol model works 

edit: Never mind, you're really serious, aren't you?

Edited September 23, 2021 by majestic

[BruceVC]

29 minutes ago, majestic said:

Nice way to weasle out of it. Intentional, lol. Yeah, so CISCO doesn't actively implant backdoors into their products, they just send them over to the NSA to do that for them before they're shipped out...

Oh, wait, sorry, the NSA "intercepts" CISCO shipments and does that. So it's not intentional.

Either way, if you're not from the US, you can buy real US backdoors or alleged Chinese back doors that most likely exist anyway. Where you you want your data to go today?

  

Are you really this naive or is this just your forum shtick? Of course it's the same, and you're silly if you think for one bit that any NSA backdoor doesn't also get used for industrial espionage on foreing companies.

No the purpose of the " backdoor " is different, one is for national security and the other is for cyber-espionage

You do realize China has been accused of theft of IP and this has been confirmed by many countries including the EU

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/06/china-is-stealing-our-technology-and-intellectual-property-congress-must-stop-it/

If you disagree post the links of the US and the legitimate accusations of theft of IP and I will read them but  the usage of Prism is not the same unless you can share the links of all the " theft of IP by the US and the EU ". Its clear you dont care about the theft of IP from the EU by China  but here is another link specific to the EU 

http://www.aalep.eu/combating-chinese-theft-intellectual-property