Permanently borrowed spells fix?

[Boeroer]

Ah now that I read this - If you could place Caedebald's Blackbow at PL7 in a single grimoire to replace an imprint spell... that would be pretty awesome for any Wizard who wants to multiclass into a ranged character (mainly Geomancer I guess, but also Spellblade and so on). 

I always found it sad that this spell will not get used much because it is reserved for SC Wizards who are quite hard to build into effective weapon users (no active attacks, no martial passives) 

 

[Noqn]

11 hours ago, thelee said:

careful, the imprint spells are enchantment spells and in most of the cases you've replaced them with an excluded school. i think we should try to find something that's still something that enchanters could use. spells are a little tight at the higher tiers, but i would mostly suggest caedebald's, with minoletta's where wilting wind won't work.

Good point, I didn't consider that!

A closer look:

• Wilting Wind should be ok for Zanhdethus.
• Jernaugh's Equalizing Burst is a Transmutation spell, so imo we shouldn't have to accomodate their grimoire for Enchanters anyways.
• Bekerna's grimoires (though containing four spells unavailable for enchanters) are the most Enchanting-heavy grimoires in the game, at 10 enchanting spells each. I still think WoMC is the PL8 spell that is least out of character for Bekarna, but I absolutely see the case for Caedebald.
• It's almost chilling how well Freezing Rake fits Ninagauth's ice theme. His grimoire doesn't contain a single Enchanting spell apart from Major Grimoire Imprint, so here I would argue that thematic consistency should take precedence.

[dgray62]

Does anyone know if a sorceror can use the grimoire imprint trick to steal spells that you are normally prohibited from casting depending on your druid subclass? For example, could a Fury sorcerer use minor grimoire imprint to steal rejuvenation spells like The Moon's Light and Nature's Balm which you otherwise could not learn or cast? I presume that the answer is yes, but I haven't tried it so I'm not sure if this will work or not.

[Not So Clever Hound]

8 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Does anyone know if a sorceror can use the grimoire imprint trick to steal spells that you are normally prohibited from casting depending on your druid subclass? For example, could a Fury sorcerer use minor grimoire imprint to steal rejuvenation spells like The Moon's Light and Nature's Balm which you otherwise could not learn or cast? I presume that the answer is yes, but I haven't tried it so I'm not sure if this will work or not.

Good question. I haven’t tried this exact combo but I know that:

1) a specialist mage can steal opposite school spells but can’t use them. So probably keyword limitation would apply for Druid « schools » as well. 
2) A SC Wizard can steal any special Druid spell e.g. the awesome Sporeling summon and use it without issues. 

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1) a specialist mage can steal opposite school spells but can’t use them. So probably keyword limitation would apply for Druid « schools » as well. 

the weird thing is that fury isn't really a keyword limitation - a lot of spells seem to be explicitly blocked from selection in the ability tree despite not having the correct keyword. i don't know if this has any ramifications with grimoire imprint though.

[dgray62]

Thanks! I'm currently trying @Not So Clever Hound's Thundercat 2.0 build again, this time with the mod that raises the level cap to 33. This is particularly nice for solo builds IMO. I'm using the Lifegiver class, so I'll see if I can steal and use any druid summon spells. I'll report back when I reach lvl 10 can can start stealing spells.

[Noqn]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

the weird thing is that fury isn't really a keyword limitation - a lot of spells seem to be explicitly blocked from selection in the ability tree despite not having the correct keyword. i don't know if this has any ramifications with grimoire imprint though.

You were right! The Fury (and the other Druid subclasses) don't have the DisableKeywordAbilities effect that the Wizard subclasses have, so a Fury Sorcerer should be able to use a stolen Moonwell!

[Not So Clever Hound]

22 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Thanks! I'm currently trying @Not So Clever Hound's Thundercat 2.0 build again, this time with the mod that raises the level cap to 33. This is particularly nice for solo builds IMO. I'm using the Lifegiver class, so I'll see if I can steal and use any druid summon spells. I'll report back when I reach lvl 10 can can start stealing spells.

Now I have this vision of a frantic man-cat casting meteor swarms and greater maelstroms at the speed of light, with every foe bathing in chillfogs and wicked briars etc. and afflicted by combusting wounds and infestation of maggots.

Destroyer of Worlds. 

[dgray62]

Yes! Too bad Fury druid can't use the cat form, but that would be overkill, for sure!

[yorname]

I don't know why, but I just had 2 mages both get the unique Ninagauth's Death Ray from Ikorno (bounty), who obviously shouldn't and doesn't have that spell. I think I also stole some spell that wasn't in the grimoire from low level enemies, notably that guy who attacks you after you trade with Dunnage's tavern owner. Can somebody explain it technically?

 

also if a mage steals a spell he knows/has in grimoire, after save/load the spell will be hidden, only the normal version can be cast. A workaround is to assign a hotkey to the stolen spell before any s/l, while it's still next to other unlimited ones, then after s/l the unlimited version will be in the hotkeys row. Useful to allow Aloth to cast minor missles,since it's not bad but Aloth has it at lv1.

Edited July 5, 2022 by yorname

[dgray62]

It could be that Ikorno knew the spell. When you steal spells from a companion like Aloth or a hireling, you can steal either spells that they know inherently (from leveling up) or spells in the grimoire they have equipped. If you steal spells from the weather mages on slaver ships, for example, you can get several spells from them that aren't in their grimoires. As soon as I hit lvl 7 or 10 when playing a mage, I head toward Crookspur to battle slaver ships to steal spells from the mages on them. Thanks for the hotkey tip; I didn't know that. 

[Waski]

11 hours ago, yorname said:

I don't know why, but I just had 2 mages both get the unique Ninagauth's Death Ray from Ikorno (bounty), who obviously shouldn't and doesn't have that spell. I think I also stole some spell that wasn't in the grimoire from low level enemies, notably that guy who attacks you after you trade with Dunnage's tavern owner. Can somebody explain it technically?

looks like some wizards have spells they shouldn't have to spice thing up, Katrenn is another example (Concelhaut's Crushing Doom)

[yorname]

Ah Concelhaut's Crushing Doom is a good example, I didn't realize enemies having unique spells was not that unusual, maybe I got tunnel vision since I only had access to minor imprint

[Elric Galad]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:06 PM, Waski said:

looks like some wizards have spells they shouldn't have to spice thing up, Katrenn is another example (Concelhaut's Crushing Doom)

She rarely lives long enough to cast much though. Inconvenience of being the only DPS in a squad of tanks under surprise attack...

[NotDumbEnough]

I think you see it more often with upscaling turned on, since at their base level they can't cast a lot of these spells. One of the more fun scenarios I had was where I had even more upscaling than usual modded in (up to 10 levels upscaling), then visited Poko Kahara at a high level. In the mass skeleton fight all of the skeleton archers started spamming Ranger's Binding Roots on me. I was not expecting my entire party being immobilized.

[thelee]

On 7/9/2022 at 7:50 AM, NotDumbEnough said:

I think you see it more often with upscaling turned on, since at their base level they can't cast a lot of these spells. One of the more fun scenarios I had was where I had even more upscaling than usual modded in (up to 10 levels upscaling), then visited Poko Kahara at a high level. In the mass skeleton fight all of the skeleton archers started spamming Ranger's Binding Roots on me. I was not expecting my entire party being immobilized.

that's interesting, i don't think i've paid much attention to enemy abilities from up/downscaling, i thought it was purely up/down-math of acc/def/PEN/AR/PL. are you sure your mod doesn't do any additional trickeries (sub in more powerful enemies?)

[NotDumbEnough]

Upscaling literally changes enemy levels and they seem to auto-pick abilities just like newly added companions (or for casters, get most if not all of the spells at that tier). For example, if you turn upscaling high enough enemy monks in shipboard battles will use Whispers of the Wind and Inner Death against you (assuming they scale up to level 19). Inner Death is particularly scary as it kills most builds instantly on crit (I don't think the ability was balanced around the enemy having it). Barbarians with Barbaric Retaliation can also be scary if you're not expecting it.

[Noqn]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:06 PM, Waski said:

looks like some wizards have spells they shouldn't have to spice thing up, Katrenn is another example (Concelhaut's Crushing Doom)

Hmmm...

The CharacterStats object of Katrenn (BOUNTY_NPC_Katrenn) is using the Character Progression Table PT_NPC_Wizard_SpellswordMelee.

This table doesn't contain Concelhaut's Crushing Doom, but it has three DefaultDecisionTrees IDs which seem to point to trees in this file:

...\exported\design\ai\aidecisiontrees\aidecisiontrees.aidecisiontreebundle

One of the trees (a83e67f9-7536-43f5-8db1-88ba2b3ec165) contains a node with the ID for Concelhaut's Crushing Doom (01e682b1-dd28-4c84-a63b-27cbd950be49).

This is a wild wild guess, but it may be that the AI can cast any ability from its decision tree regardless of whether it's actually available

Edited July 11, 2022 by Noqn

[thelee]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Upscaling literally changes enemy levels and they seem to auto-pick abilities just like newly added companions (or for casters, get most if not all of the spells at that tier). For example, if you turn upscaling high enough enemy monks in shipboard battles will use Whispers of the Wind and Inner Death against you (assuming they scale up to level 19). Inner Death is particularly scary as it kills most builds instantly on crit (I don't think the ability was balanced around the enemy having it). Barbarians with Barbaric Retaliation can also be scary if you're not expecting it.

wow, so it seems like kith enemies benefit (or are hurt the most) from up/down scaling (especially if made more generous)? i don't think beast/wilder/etc types would get the kind of power curve that unlocking new class abilities would get.

[Noqn]

uuuh actually scratch that, the progression table does in fact contain Crushing Doom

Same with Ikorno and Ninagauth's Death Ray, he gets it naturally from his table.

[NotDumbEnough]

50 minutes ago, thelee said:

wow, so it seems like kith enemies benefit (or are hurt the most) from up/down scaling (especially if made more generous)? i don't think beast/wilder/etc types would get the kind of power curve that unlocking new class abilities would get.

Vessels too including fampyrs, darguls and skeletons. I remember leaving the crypt in Sacred Stairs too late (I modded in upscaling up to ten levels) and the dargul barbarian in there wiped my party with Heart of Fury and Barbaric Retaliation. But it's mostly noticeable in shipboard battles that are by default of much lower level. I was shocked to see Dawnstar Incarnates while boarding the ship to save Bearn.

 

Some other examples of nasty upscaling (even if you don't mod in larger upscaling limits) are the burning soldiers in The Bridge Ablaze. Specifically the archers have Vanishing Strikes which is very nasty.

Edited July 11, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[thelee]

47 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Some other examples of nasty upscaling (even if you don't mod in larger upscaling limits) are the burning soldiers in The Bridge Ablaze. Specifically the archers have Vanishing Strikes which is very nasty.

lol wow i thought it was bad enough that they had confounding blind