A Fifth of Coronavirus

[rjshae]

12 hours ago, Gorth said:

I chose the exact opposite, following my native country's health advice (Denmark has completely banned AZ and J&J for human use). That from a country that currently has its own DNA based vaccine in trial testing, as an alternative to the mRNA vaccines).

Bear in mind, BioNTech (the company that developed the vaccine commonly just called 'Pfizer') is not new to the technology, it wasn't something that sprung up overnight. The two brothers (Turkish immigrants who moved to Germany in some distant past) that runs the company has been doing a decades worth of research in mRNA technology searching for treatments of cancers. Somehow they just got the bright idea it might also work if put to triggering the immune system against Covid virus (not at least thanks to some hefty support by the German government). Pfizer was necessary, as a small company has nowhere near the manufacturing capacity nor the overseas distribution network that a giant like Pfizer has.

Note that I'm not saying it's bad; I had the moderna vaccine myself. It's just that some people are very risk adverse and prefer older technological solutions until the new-fangled toys have proved themselves.

[majestic]

  

5 hours ago, rjshae said:

Note that I'm not saying it's bad; I had the moderna vaccine myself. It's just that some people are very risk adverse and prefer older technological solutions until the new-fangled toys have proved themselves.

If that were the case, wouldn't you rather go for CoronaVac than Astra Zeneca then? Inactivated or attenuated virus vaccinations are the tried and true approach. Viral vector vaccinations have been around for a bit longer than mRNA ones, yes, but... not by that much, and were never used on a scale like this before either, at least when it comes to human use. *shrug*

[BruceVC]

On 6/19/2021 at 3:45 AM, rjshae said:

Thanks. Yes it's funny what will trigger some people. I just thought it was an interesting curiosity.

I read most of your link and it is about a very complex and nuanced question that I assumed most Americans would want to understand, and that question is basically " how did the worlds most well resourced country failed to address its second wave "  and unfortunately   allowed the rest of us observing to see what doctors warned were   the worst responses a country could follow and that these  outcomes with  a pandemic of this nature would led to the virus spreading exponentially and all the carnage that meant follow. I followed this story and events and then did additional research and the entire story of the " mask denialists and mask hesitancy" is absolutely linked to different reasons in the USA and to be honest some of these reasons are unique to the USA.....that is very unusual but it cannot be ignored. You are the first American forum member who has expressed an interest is this question and I am glad because I can now comment and get your opinion

I would have to assume the reasons why most  Americans members have not seemed to want to  understand how the US could fail in such a predictable way is maybe  because the constant political theater of the  Trump presidency and constant political chaos  created fatigue and the  virus spread or failures became more about bipartisan support than actual reality  of the stopping the pandemic

Anyway so the question of mask denialism was about several factors and some were definitely psychological, we  wouldnt need this detailed study to realize that but for me I cant understand the real psychological foundation  of some of the reasons and that was the first I have seen any citizens of a first world country allow conspiracy theories and real misinformation to  decide their actions in RL over something as simple as wearing a mask to stop molecules

These were the general reasons 

•  your standard lack of acceptance of a mask as meaningful way of stopping the way the virus does spread, this would be people who think the virus spreads by other ways by getting the flu
• people claiming it against their rights as citizens....always that use to frustrate because surly the constitution allows clauses to save life's by mandating masks or similar things
• people with no training or understanding of the human body or medicine claiming the masks can actually kill people with trapping of oxygen. They  were not embarrassed to openly thinking it was a "deep state " plan
• People saying things like " if Trump  doesnt wear a mask, neither will  I " 
• And then of course truly pointless justifications like " masks are parts of a political ploy to push a liberal agenda " 

And Rjshae here is something  else that confuses me, have you ever seen in the world of conspiracy theories and those that believe them so many people that  studiously make a decision like " you mustnt wear a  mask because the Deep State will be controlling you " ....people dont normally act on the deep stare, its like the illuminati 

And to make things more interesting , someone might assume these were all decisions made by Republican or Trump supporters and not Democratic states so its  not a problem the left needs to understand. But during  the heart of the 2 wave every single BLM protest has large numbers of protestors, both white and black, not wearing masks and arms around each other...and the marches had thousands of young people. And not is also unacceptable 

So I would  like to understand one day the psychological reasons for this because it will be good to know how to avoid it and its not something that should dismiss as Americans because it doesnt make sense compared to some of the normal hyperbole you see within the  USA ? 

[BruceVC]

20 hours ago, 213374U said:

I see your "triggering" and raise you some "projecting". I simply pointed out selectiveness and seemingly arbitrary thresholds for accepting something as "science". Your reactions and obsessive editing betray way more "triggering" than anything I've said.

Yes its an okay apology, I notice you didnt apologize about calling  my post about liberal overreach " garbage cancel culture " and I hate it when  people think I would make a post because of such meaningless topic that I dont believe in. I hate being called a Troll because that is the ultimate insult because that would mean all this time I have spent on a forum its not what I believe and I want to upset people...that is the definition of troll, you  not to be taken seriously 

And I dont believe in cancel culture because its a reaction to something and  not a real reason. I will stop supporting any franchise if their is  valid reason but I cant think of one real example now? So my posts may be incorrect or I may be misunderstanding  context but I dont make posts because of  reason like cancel culture

But I still like your comments when you comment without the unnecessary invective because you have good insights. I may not always agree but you do your research and its good to understand views that allow you to confirm or change your point 

 

 

[213374U]

I didn't call your thread garbage. I called the greater issue of culture wars garbage, and asked why you believed that that particular story merited its own thread outside of the politics thread -- for which no adequate answer was given. Regardless I did not take any action as the thread did not break any rules per se. As I recall, you admitted that you had fundamentally misunderstood your own story and admitted it could have been posted in the politics thread in the first place.

And that's as far as I'm willing to take take this tangent about moderation in public. Any further questions, please take them to PM.

[rjshae]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

...

So I would  like to understand one day the psychological reasons for this because it will be good to know how to avoid it and its not something that should dismiss as Americans because it doesnt make sense compared to some of the normal hyperbole you see within the  USA ? 

I suspect a significant factor in the US is the influence of the internet. This can be used to amplify the voice of small, anonymous groups and to create echo chambers that become self-reinforcing. Prior to the internet, when a typical person espoused a crackpot conspiracy theory, their buddies could be on hand to keep them well-grounded. That is often no longer the case, since people will head to the internet to anonymously spout rubbish. It doesn't help that foreign adversaries can help promote this behavior, to an unknown extent. We're more likely to be targeted by these malicious agents due to our foreign relations.

I'm not sure yet what we can do about this.

Another factor has been the isolation brought on by lockdowns, social distancing, and mask wearing. While necessary because of the lack of a vaccine, these measures are harmful to the human psyche. We need social contact. If a person is close to the edge psychologically (including the 1% who display psychopathic personality traits ), this can completely knock them over into self-delusion and potential violence. Some of this may have been reflected in the rabid, illogical anti-masking posts I frequently see. Maybe. I'm hoping this effect will gradually fade as we open back up again.

I completely understand the desire to rid ourselves of these quarantine measures, but I also agreed with their temporary necessity to prevent mass deaths.

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, 213374U said:

I didn't call your thread garbage. I called the greater issue of culture wars garbage, and asked why you believed that that particular story merited its own thread outside of the politics thread -- for which no adequate answer was given. Regardless I did not take any action as the thread did not break any rules per se. As I recall, you admitted that you had fundamentally misunderstood your own story and admitted it could have been posted in the politics thread in the first place.

And that's as far as I'm willing to take take this tangent about moderation in public. Any further questions, please take them to PM.

This is not  about you being a moderator and its not  about you breaking any rules, sorry if I created that impression. I dont think I have ever been concerned with anyone who has been possibly dismissive  because they broke the rules because I believe you dont need to enforce rules  to discuss how we can engage...and to be honest I feel their isnt a need to really enforce rules because people can discuss what the issue. 

It seems like I misunderstood  your point and it wasnt  a big issue because you also made a point about the reason he was jailed and that was  because he broke the court ruling so he was jailed for a valid  reason and not what I assumed  But now my concern was no longer valid and the entire post was unnecessary

And I dislike spending time on any SJ story that is not accurate or the  truth because then you are not only wasting RL time but you got fooled into thinking the story mattered 

So can you see why your post was incongruous, I thought you were dismissing it but you had actually read  the link better than I had and you provided the actual reason he was jailed

Oh I dont  think it can be considered a cancel  culture story but seemed to be about laws being enforced which punished a father  unreasonably....but that was wrong 

So thanks for pointing out  what it was really about 

 

 

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, rjshae said:

I suspect a significant factor in the US is the influence of the internet. This can be used to amplify the voice of small, anonymous groups and to create echo chambers that become self-reinforcing. Prior to the internet, when a typical person espoused a crackpot conspiracy theory, their buddies could be on hand to keep them well-grounded. That is often no longer the case, since people will head to the internet to anonymously spout rubbish. It doesn't help that foreign adversaries can help promote this behavior, to an unknown extent. We're more likely to be targeted by these malicious agents due to our foreign relations.

I'm not sure yet what we can do about this.

Another factor has been the isolation brought on by lockdowns, social distancing, and mask wearing. While necessary because of the lack of a vaccine, these measures are harmful to the human psyche. We need social contact. If a person is close to the edge psychologically (including the 1% who display psychopathic personality traits ), this can completely knock them over into self-delusion and potential violence. Some of this may have been reflected in the rabid, illogical anti-masking posts I frequently see. Maybe. I'm hoping this effect will gradually fade as we open back up again.

I completely understand the desire to rid ourselves of these quarantine measures, but I also agreed with their temporary necessity to prevent mass deaths.

You could be right and I hope you right because its something that you dont  often see and  I wouldnt want to see that in SA 

Something else  I remember, in Florida the major of Miami  finally decided to make mask wearing mandatory. This should  have  been done 1-2 months ago and it always seemed so tragic because their already were thousands of dead and sick 

The major arranged a town hall meeting to let people know and to get questions. 

[Skarpen]

LOL:

 "At the time, it was scarier to be associated with Trump and to become a tool for racists, so people didn't want to publicly call for an investigation into lab origins," she said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/lab-leak-theory-science-scientists-rcna1191?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma

[BruceVC]

21 hours ago, rjshae said:

I suspect a significant factor in the US is the influence of the internet. This can be used to amplify the voice of small, anonymous groups and to create echo chambers that become self-reinforcing. Prior to the internet, when a typical person espoused a crackpot conspiracy theory, their buddies could be on hand to keep them well-grounded. That is often no longer the case, since people will head to the internet to anonymously spout rubbish. It doesn't help that foreign adversaries can help promote this behavior, to an unknown extent. We're more likely to be targeted by these malicious agents due to our foreign relations.

I'm not sure yet what we can do about this.

Another factor has been the isolation brought on by lockdowns, social distancing, and mask wearing. While necessary because of the lack of a vaccine, these measures are harmful to the human psyche. We need social contact. If a person is close to the edge psychologically (including the 1% who display psychopathic personality traits ), this can completely knock them over into self-delusion and potential violence. Some of this may have been reflected in the rabid, illogical anti-masking posts I frequently see. Maybe. I'm hoping this effect will gradually fade as we open back up again.

I completely understand the desire to rid ourselves of these quarantine measures, but I also agreed with their temporary necessity to prevent mass deaths.

What do you do for  a living if you dont mind me asking, good insights 

I am glad you also see its something that is not normal but I cant find a single form of psychoses ....I am always interested in these types of studies because  I wonder how they  can manifest in other countries and with the right conditions its possible. Americans are humans and its just the environment and conditions that are different? 

I believe its a combination of factors but its going to difficult to align correctly influence but I want to study it more ....do you think its important to accept the Trump presidency as one of the factors. You and I could be onto something huge so its important to include things that are similar but in fact are our views and emotions 

But I think the Trump presidency is  a part of it ...maybe not one the causes ?

 

[rjshae]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

I believe its a combination of factors but its going to difficult to align correctly influence but I want to study it more ....do you think its important to accept the Trump presidency as one of the factors. You and I could be onto something huge so its important to include things that are similar but in fact are our views and emotions 

But I think the Trump presidency is  a part of it ...maybe not one the causes ?

I do think that Trump prioritized his own election chances, and many of those on the right worked toward that goal. Declining economies frequently lead to a change of leadership on election day. He saw that the economy was going to take a significant hit from a lockdown, so he tended to encourage behaviors that would minimize that outcome. That included downplaying the medical threat, trying to sell questionable treatments, and discouraging the mass adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. This was never going to work, of course; the faster the pandemic spread, the greater the risk of a collapse of the health system. You can see what happened in Brazil and India.

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, rjshae said:

I do think that Trump prioritized his own election chances, and many of those on the right worked toward that goal. Declining economies frequently lead to a change of leadership on election day. He saw that the economy was going to take a significant hit from a lockdown, so he tended to encourage behaviors that would minimize that outcome. That included downplaying the medical threat, trying to sell questionable treatments, and discouraging the mass adoption of mask wearing and social distancing. This was never going to work, of course; the faster the pandemic spread, the greater the risk of a collapse of the health system. You can see what happened in Brazil and India.

Good points but I meant to add to the phycological reasons we witnessed  the overall attitude of people towards the virus and you cannot ignore the automatic "worship " of Trump and it was something I have never  really seen before. Not so quickly, for example Trump wins the election and you can see his base loves him which I thought was nice as it was unusual for me to see such emotion in white people ....we were raised to not openly express yourself like that and for this I agree. Its not about being emotionally devoid but you need to maintain decorum and somethings you never do in front of people like openly saying " I only now believe what Trump says, he knows everything " and they can justify anything Trump did so suddenly Trump  became a true Christian and for some " God appointed him ( I promise a women in SA phoned in on the local and said this )

And this occurred in the 4 years of his presidency and I really didnt enjoy seeing people abandon their ability to be objective and not just echo one view. And I particularly found it unpalatable when I saw Christians ignoring their sense of what defines a Christian value system and saying Trump is some kind of spiritual figure

Of course people can like and love Trump but to start suggesting his presidency is divine will is egregious and I will never accept that. Its hard to think of any single person who demonstrated more un-Christian values than Trump and yet people ignored these so its another interesting development

And then I am very interested in the reasons groups of his base followed him because he represented a world where "white people werent blamed for everything and it was okay to be white " .....strange they needed Trump to tell them that? Sometimes I would notice some of Trumps connections to " white people " and I supported it but it was based on views I already had so Trump just articulated it. So I do understand some of his appeal 

And again in SA  I heard on 3 occasions white men phoning in a talk shows and repeating the false narrative of " Trump won the election " . So unfortunately you can see  what this tells us about Trumps influence in some better world .....its cannot ever be a better world if you  cannot accept a legitimate election and we cannot justify this 

Somethings are sacrosanct and he could have just walked away with huge adulation and much praise but no he decided to undermine his entire legacy 

 

 

 

 

[rjshae]

The well-tolerated drug niclosamide, used for treating tape worm parasites, has shown good promise at inhibiting the COVID-19 virus replication within a host cell.

A tapeworm drug against SARS-CoV-2? (Science Daily, June 21, 2021)

Of course, this is just testing with cultured cells. It is undergoing a trial on COVID-19-infected people at Charité in Germany.

[BruceVC]

I was thinking about the reality  of the virus and its spread and how different governments are trying to address the spread. In  SA we are debating where we make vaccines mandatory because of the nature of virus mutations and variants

So  the question that your normal human rights lawyers like to ask cannot be " do you have  a human right or Constitution right to not take the virus " that was the old question before the reality of how virus variants can still make people that take vaccines sick and even die 

The only question that matters and human rights lawyers should learn to argue  is " do you have a human right or Constitutional right to spread the virus " 

@GromnirI am expecting  people like Gromnir to agree that you dont have the right to spread the virus  

[Gromnir]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

 

The only question that matters and human rights lawyers should learn to argue  is " do you have a human right or Constitutional right to spread the virus " 

@GromnirI am expecting  people like Gromnir to agree that you dont have the right to spread the virus  

am suspecting the question you ask is not the one you want to  have confirmed.

in the US, if you are infected with a potential dangerous and communicable disease, you may be compelled to quarantine.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

am suspecting the question you ask is not the one you want to  have confirmed.

in the US, if you are infected with a potential dangerous and communicable disease, you may be compelled to quarantine.

HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir that is completely unhelpful to the reality all our societies face that have been ravaged by the virus and are busy hubs for both international and local travel and flights . So this includes countries like the UK, USA , EU and SA

" Do you think people have a right to spread the virus " has to be only Constitutional or legal question that matters. Quarantine measures are a stopgap, a temporary measure. This has got nothing to do with people and children returning to work and school  and the company or school  expecting you to vaccinated. This is about  the reality of  virus spread and new variants. Quarantining people is just one of the strategy's until you get vaccinated  

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

 

" Do you think people have a right to spread the virus " has to be only Constitutional or legal question that matters. 

you already asked that question and didn't like the answer. people who are known to have a communicable disease may be quarantined even against their will.

am not gonna help you on this. direct ask the question you genuine wish to ask. 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

21 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

you already asked that question and didn't like the answer. people who are known to have a communicable disease may be quarantined even against their will.

am not gonna help you on this. direct ask the question you genuine wish to ask. 

HA! Good Fun!

Yes, okay I see what you asking. Do you support mandatory  vaccine passports  that people have to show when working in private or public sector and then in institutions like schools and university's? 

[Gfted1]

I wonder how that would work here in the US. Tbh, the Covid-19 vaccination card from the CDC that my wife and I received could have been printed at home from my PC, and is filled out by hand. Its easily fakeable, but I guess you have to hope too many jacktards dont cheat the system.

[BruceVC]

36 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

I wonder how that would work here in the US. Tbh, the Covid-19 vaccination card from the CDC that my wife and I received could have been printed at home from my PC, and is filled out by hand. Its easily fakeable, but I guess you have to hope too many jacktards dont cheat the system.

It is a valid concern and I hope all the types of vaccine passports arent easily forged 

But we will need ways to ensure people have been vaccinated....we dont have a choice with variants and how they can prolong the virus in all our countries  

[rjshae]

24 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

It is a valid concern and I hope all the types of vaccine passports arent easily forged 

But we will need ways to ensure people have been vaccinated....we dont have a choice with variants and how they can prolong the virus in all our countries  

Optimistically, I'm hoping this period of needing vaccination cards will pass quickly. If not, they need to do something like add secure bar codes that can be compared against your ID card.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

It is a valid concern and I hope all the types of vaccine passports arent easily forged 

But we will need ways to ensure people have been vaccinated....we dont have a choice with variants and how they can prolong the virus in all our countries  

us state governments figured out how to craft driver's licenses. am pretty sure the fed could come up with a kinda vaccine id if such a thing were deemed necessary.

the problem is you got 'tween 20% and 30% o' the country believing mandatory vaccination is unconstitutional and even ungodly. make illegal to work or shop for groceries or buy their guns at walmart w/o proof of vaccine only further convinces such people they is being persecuted. january 6 shows what happens when enough people, many o' whom howled 'bout the lawlessness o' blm and antifa during the summer, nevertheless feel complete justified in their own overt lawless behavior. joining a mob bent on stopping the electoral college process, and storming the Capitol to achieve such an end? many (most) o' the january 6 insurrectionists believed they were being patriotic as they forced their way into the Capitol, bent on overturning the election results.  compel people to get proof o' vaccination will lead to further radicalization o' the lunatic fringe, and if you think am exaggerating, you weren't paying attention to a few o' the more vocal far right supporters who disappeared from these boards after the november 2020 elections, and you ain't listening to a few o' the diehard "i know my rights" persons who continue to post. 

the ultimate goal is to get more people vaccinated, yes?  tell Americans they is required to do something and some significant percentage o' the population is gonna do the opposite just to prove they cannot be forced into doing anything against their will, even if by doing so they is hurting themselves and others. 

bears repeating, but mandatory vaccinations is, 'ccording to existing Court decisions, the law o' the land. the thing is, you can't actual force persons to be vaccinated, as contradictory as that sounds. can require vaccinations if you wanna go to school or be in military or even if you wanna work for state or fed or any number o' other circumstances, but you can't force persons to get injected. not wanna be injected as a private non essential military personage? can't force it. could require you to quarantine and potential could put you in prison, though that would be self defeating as you would then have a whole lotta unvaccinated people forced into crowded conditions ideal for spread o' disease. 

us ain't china. particular given how right wing media has turned vaccinations into a political and liberty issue for many, compulsory vaccinations would no doubt get a few more people vaccinated, but it would also guarantee that a significant number o' americans would oppose getting vaccinated under any circumstances, and you would no doubt help radicalize a considerable number o people, and not just those folks living in florida.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Skarpen]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

" Do you think people have a right to spread the virus "

Let me rephrase the question. Do you think people have a right to live? 

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Do you support mandatory  vaccine passports  that people have to show when working in private or public sector and then in institutions like schools and university's? 

No. People should not be segregated on any criteria including medical procedures. I thought you should know that being South African.

[Gfted1]

3 hours ago, rjshae said:

If not, they need to do something like add secure bar codes that can be compared against your ID card.

Imo, in IL, they already did that in a (not so) inconspicuous way. I was required to enter my drivers license number into the document when I got to the pharmacy, so Im pretty sure they already know exactly who has received the vaccination and what dose they are on.

[Guard Dog]

Royal Caribbean to allow unvaccinated passengers with restrictions

separate cabins. Separate dining facilities and times. Some activities they will not be allowed on. They won’t be allowed to use the pool. I guess if you wanted to know what it was like to be a black man in America in the 1960s book a trip on Royal Caribbean without getting vaccinated.