Resting bonuses stack with active abilities?

[Eddizel]

I was under the impression that food and resting bonuses don't stack with active abilities, but I noticed that if I rest in Konstanten's room that the 3 DEX stacks with my monk using swift strikes and getting the 5 DEX from quick.  Also resting meditating and praying at the shrine near poko kahara gets me Natures resolve (10 accuracy, 2 RES) which stacks with devotions of the faithful (10 accuracy) from my priest, or borrowed instinct (20 accuracy) from my cipher.  So resting bonuses stack now?  Is this new?  Does all food or inn resting stack with active abilities?  My rest bonus strategies just changed drastically if they do.

[thelee]

there's a bug, where resting/food/drink bonuses become passive (and therefore stack) after some sort of save/load cycle (i don't know the specifics). it happened to me in my ultimate run so i ended up w/ higher stats than expected (a plus!).

pretty sure it's not intentional so it's up to your own standards on what's "fair" or "not fair" in terms of whether or not to take advantage of it or not for your own game. on the spectrum of possible cheese in this game, it's probably not that bad.

Edited March 22, 2021 by thelee

[Eddizel]

But I only play on trial of iron...I'm not doing any saving/loading, besides when I start and end my playing sessions of course.  Never made sense that your food or inn choice didn't stack to me anyways really, made most options pointless.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Eddizel

[Kaylon]

Food/resting bonuses were always considered passives and always stacked with the active abilities. There's also a thread somewhere where you can see which bonuses can be obtained and how to keep them as long as possible.

[Eddizel]

11 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Food/resting bonuses were always considered passives and always stacked with the active abilities. There's also a thread somewhere where you can see which bonuses can be obtained and how to keep them as long as possible.

That isn't what I remember.  Active buffs should overwrite food/rest bonuses.  For example, resting in Konstanten's room gives you 3 DEX and 30% spell resist.  If you buff yourself with quick in a fight, the 5 DEX will overwrite the 3 DEX.  The 30% spell resist will never be overwritten though, because of how % chance stuff works.

[thelee]

20 hours ago, Eddizel said:

But I only play on trial of iron...I'm not doing any saving/loading, besides when I start and end my playing sessions of course.  Never made sense that your food or inn choice didn't stack to me anyways really, made most options pointless.

the save/loading when you leave and enter would count. just perhaps any kind of saving and loading. also see below.

 

13 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Food/resting bonuses were always considered passives and always stacked with the active abilities.

not true. i would in fact bet serious money against this version of history.

this thread shows a lot of the regulars here on this expressing the expectation that rest bonuses don't stack (including maxquest, who dug in and found the that food/rest bonuses were marked as active, making the developer intent pretty obvious) 

 

 

what might be true is that this bug of the food/rest bonuses losing their "active" indicator somehow has been around since forever. a lot of the early ultimate discussion thread operated around the assumption that resting bonuses didn't stack or that triggering the bug that causes them to stack was inconsistent to rely on. which is why i express confusion upthread on how exactly to trigger the bug; in the investigation below i found only some zone transitions was needed for me in one case, while ocelotter had trouble getting his bonuses to ever not be suppressed by active effects

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by thelee

[Kaylon]

2 hours ago, Eddizel said:

That isn't what I remember.  Active buffs should overwrite food/rest bonuses.  For example, resting in Konstanten's room gives you 3 DEX and 30% spell resist.  If you buff yourself with quick in a fight, the 5 DEX will overwrite the 3 DEX.  The 30% spell resist will never be overwritten though, because of how % chance stuff works.

Really it's the first time I hear something like this. I played without resting since the beginning of the game and they always stacked. There was indeed one of the latest patches which introduced some bugs - Adra potions +skills bonus not always stacking with the one from Hylea's boon and +penetration from weapons modals not stacking reliably with food. Stacking resting bonuses is such an old thing and for me it's just common knowledge. I don't care if it was intended or not, or if some people consider it a bug - the fact is it always worked like that... 

[thelee]

it's not just a new patch thing, dude. and it's not just limited to those. since like forever i've had to be careful about various potions, buffs, and rum, because of the overlap in action speed and resulting suppression (since way back when i first wrote up my umezawa build which was back in the 1.x days).

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Really it's the first time I hear something like this. [...]

I don't care if it was intended or not, or if some people consider it a bug - the fact is it always worked like that... 

==

 

[Kaylon]

3 hours ago, thelee said:

it's not just a new patch thing, dude. and it's not just limited to those. since like forever i've had to be careful about various potions, buffs, and rum, because of the overlap in action speed and resulting suppression (since way back when i first wrote up my umezawa build which was back in the 1.x days).

Dude, please give other examples (if you can...) instead of quoting yourself and arguing for nothing. As for your build it's completely irrelevant - the only resting bonus mentioned in it is some drink (and I doubt you were even aware about stacking resting bonuses at that time).   

Here's the thread for people who care more about facts and less about semantics...

 

[Jayd]

Man, this is tripping me out. First of all, I was not only fully convinced that food bonuses were considered active and did not stack with other active bonuses, but I distinctly remember checking myself (with Mohora Wraps).

I loaded up my game to check and found that the DEX bonus from Konstanten's room, and the MIG bonus from Shark Soup were stacking with actives. I then decided that I needed to check Mohora Wraps, and here's the thing - the Mohora Wrap MIG bonus does NOT stack.

In the exact same fight I used Xoti to cast a MIG inspiration on the whole party. Watcher had Shark Soup and Serafen had Mohora Wraps. The inspiration suppressed the bonus from Mohora Wraps but stacked with Shark Soup.

What the @$%&?

Is it that some rest bonuses always stack and other don't? Is it just Mohora? I have to start my work day now so can't investigate (nor am I excited to - it will be tedious). Can anyone at least replicate what I'm seeing here?

Edit: I also distinctly remember Captain's Banquet's action speed bonus not stacking with Frenzy's. Haven't checked that again yet.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Jayd

[Raven Darkholme]

I have to agree with @Kaylon here.

I also always played with resting bonuses and at some point in time (after all dlc and megabosses came out but WAY before the ultimate) I also made a char which abused the bug of stacking different resting bonuses on top of each other.

Not only did resting bonuses always stack with actives, but also as mentioned you could have several (in fact all of them but who has time for that) stack with each other.

One thing that is very important to note here is that certain stats in the game behave different towards stacking than others.

Attributes will quite easily stack as long as you're not trying to stack 2 might inspirations or smth silly like that.

Health bonuses on the other hand will under almost no circumstances stack, even from food the highest will always suppress the rest.

I'm pretty sure that when @thelee tested it (and anyone else who did) they happened to try it with one of the stats who always get suppressed.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Raven Darkholme

[Jayd]

3 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

I'm pretty sure that when @thelee tested it (and anyone else who did) they happened to try it with one of the stats who always get suppressed.

I just explained that rest bonuses to the same stat, Might, stacked with an inspiration in the case of Shark Soup but not Mohora Wraps.

I'm pretty sure none of us understand this.

[Boeroer]

Would be cool if people wouldn't claim to present "facts" as long as there's several different anecdotal reports flying around that suggest otherwise.

Would also be neat if one wouldn't imply that others are not interested in facts just because they report about different experiences.

Since there's several reports that are somewhat contradictory: Maybe now is the best time that somebody* sits down and tries that stuff again with the actual game? It doesn't really matter what worked how in the past with which patch - I guess we can agree that it matters most how it works now.

 

)* not me though because I'm on the road preparing to haul 100 bags of garden soil into my transporter - and also because I don't really care if resting/food bonuses stack: don't use them on purpose anyway.

[Raven Darkholme]

  

1 hour ago, Jayd said:

I just explained that rest bonuses to the same stat, Might, stacked with an inspiration in the case of Shark Soup but not Mohora Wraps.

I'm pretty sure none of us understand this.

There is nothing to understand about it, it's just chaotic game design, you either know which specific bonuses stack or don't.

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Would be cool if people wouldn't claim to present "facts" as long as there's several different anecdotal reports flying around that suggest otherwise.

Would also be neat if one wouldn't imply that others are not interested in facts just because they report about different experiences.

Since there's several reports that are somewhat contradictory: Maybe now is the best time that somebody* sits down and tries that stuff again with the actual game? It doesn't really matter what worked how in the past with which patch - I guess we can agree that it matters most how it works now.

 

)* not me though because I'm on the road preparing to haul 100 bags of garden soil into my transporter - and also because I don't really care if resting/food bonuses stack: don't use them on purpose anyway.

As I already stated I tested it ages ago, and I can still load up my save even tho it was from before Ultimate patch the bonuses still stack the same way on current patch

(Only thing that might have gotten patched is the process of stacking several food bonuses, but thats not really the point of the discussion anyway, if food bonuses stack with each other they will stack with other actives, except for those few exceptions you have to know about... Obsidian things)

Heres some screenshots:

[Eddizel]

Well, I don't mind resting bonuses stacking with actives, in fact I think they should, only makes sense.  But that screenshot of stacking all kinds of food buffs together, that is just some extreme cheese lol, I hope that doesn't exist anymore.  Also I was going off thelee's gamefaq, which I thought was the bible pretty much for this game.  I have read the permabuff no rest guide thread before.  Just to be clear, we are not talking about stacking up all kinds of resting bonuses together (like alchemist pool, and inn/food, and luminous bath etc etc), we are talking about those buffs stacking with active inspiration/modal buffs in combat.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Eddizel

[Raven Darkholme]

45 minutes ago, Eddizel said:

Well, I don't mind resting bonuses stacking with actives, in fact I think they should, only makes sense.  But that screenshot of stacking all kinds of food buffs together, that is just some extreme cheese lol, I hope that doesn't exist anymore.  Also I was going off thelee's gamefaq, which I thought was the bible pretty much for this game.  I have read the permabuff no rest guide thread before.  Just to be clear, we are not talking about stacking up all kinds of resting bonuses together (like alchemist pool, and inn/food, and luminous bath etc etc), we are talking about those buffs stacking with active inspiration/modal buffs in combat.

 

Maybe I was too unclear on this:

If by definition a food buff is an active (which is the only way to make it not stack with other actives) then there is no way for it to stack with other food buffs.

As for actual gameplay besides the theory, the problem is, while yes most food buffs will stack with inspirations and all kinds of other bonuses you might get from actives/food, there is also those weird exceptions where specific types of bonuses just won't stack or even specific foods as @Jaydpointed out for Mohora Wraps as example.

Sadly this is one of the many areas of the game where you can't set a specific rule on what works and doesn't and have to trial and error it.

[Elric Galad]

12 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Maybe I was too unclear on this:

If by definition a food buff is an active (which is the only way to make it not stack with other actives) then there is no way for it to stack with other food buffs.

As for actual gameplay besides the theory, the problem is, while yes most food buffs will stack with inspirations and all kinds of other bonuses you might get from actives/food, there is also those weird exceptions where specific types of bonuses just won't stack or even specific foods as @Jaydpointed out for Mohora Wraps as example.

Sadly this is one of the many areas of the game where you can't set a specific rule on what works and doesn't and have to trial and error it.

Checking the Gamedata is often the key. It is faster than testing in-game an enable to spot if there are discrepency between 2 supposed similar bonuses.

What I mean is : there's always a cause. It can mix up weird gamedata, Load/save cycles impacting, etc... Which leads different people to have different experience because they think they describe similar cases when a hidden parameter cause different results.
And sometimes there are even several causes...

So checking systematically the code is a good place to start.

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Dude, please give other examples (if you can...) instead of quoting yourself and arguing for nothing. As for your build it's completely irrelevant - the only resting bonus mentioned in it is some drink (and I doubt you were even aware about stacking resting bonuses at that time).   

I didn't write in my guide, but when I was creating the character and playing through it I thoroughly evaluated and non-stacking rest bonuses were the norm - hence rum on top of the streetfighter bonuses. A no-rest guide that relies on a whole other bug/exploit (arbitrarily stacking rest bonuses via timed pauses) makes no sense as a basis for judging the apaprent mechanisms of stacking rest bonus.

 

Both @Kaylonand @Raven Darkholme pretending to say that it's either a) definitively trivially true that rest bonuses always stack or b) think it's just an artifact of odd categories of stacking should actually go through either my ultimate thread link or the bug report link.

In the ultimate thread link you see a quick discussion in which under different circumstances with the exact same rest bonuses and potion bonuses considered you can either get them to stack or not stack, and cannot even be reproduced in two different games on different cpus despite seemingly identical inputs. In the bug thread MaxQuest literally dives into the gamedata and shows rest bonuses are tagged as active. In this very thread you have a couple others other than me with their own eyes seeing that rest bonuses don't stack.

 

In pure logic, both Kaylon and Raven's basic assertions have been trivially falsified. It's OK to be wrong, but for goodness sake don't stubbornly peddle wrong information. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

what's extra frustrating is that going through the ultimate thread to see other people talking about seeing suppressed food bonuses versus not stacking, @Raven Darkholme is there themselves talking about the buggy mechanism by which you can get food/rest bonuses to stack with other bonuses (which later I and a couple people test out to try to clarify, and that's when I was able to get somethign to stack simply with zone transitions (no save/load), and both me and ocelettor failed to understand the exact mechanism by which a save/load can get a stack consistently)

 

The viewpoints being expressed here is just historical revisionism compared to that. *headshake*

The idea that I'm testing a category that doesn't stack is some maddening re-imagining of the past. Throughout all the various bits of testing I've done, among other things, I was testing something that you literally claimed as able to be stacked via a bug (and in situations I was able to get it stacked! and others, not. similar with others, including Decadence who themselves didn't rely on the mechanism for their own early ultimate run because their own tests couldn't produce a stack)

Edited March 24, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

Here's Hylea's Bounty in particular from the gamedata: https://pastebin.com/kk7864Qc
 

note the two major lines:

Quote

1. "IsPassive":"false",
2. "StackingRuleOverride":"Default",

 

I'm happy for anyone to determine the cases in which resting bonuses can be made to trivially stack, consistently, outside of exploits.

Edited March 24, 2021 by thelee

[Raven Darkholme]

I never claimed it wasn't a bug, every single post of mine in THIS THREAD has a reference to how this is unreliable and doesn't work with each food and buff.

1 hour ago, thelee said:

 

 

In pure logic, both Kaylon and Raven's basic assertions have been trivially falsified. It's OK to be wrong, but for goodness sake don't stubbornly peddle wrong information. 

Maybe you should chill out before you post stuff like that and actually read what the other person wrote.

  

1 minute ago, thelee said:

Here's Hylea's Bounty in particular from the gamedata: https://pastebin.com/kk7864Qc
 

note the two major lines:

 

I'm happy for anyone to determine the cases in which resting bonuses can be made to trivially stack, consistently, outside of exploits.

While this is a bug it's not even an exploit in the classical sense.

If you use Adra potion on top of Hyleas you WILL get them to stack eventually once you save and reload, unless you plan to run the Ultimate in a single session.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Raven Darkholme

[thelee]

I did read what you wrote - you're arguing that it comes down to the specific buff types (not true) and said I happened to test the ones that don't stack (if somehow the first was true, this is not true).

 

it comes off as sheer gaslighting. In that Ultimate thread you seemed to be operating under the assumption that it wasn't the specific buff, but some interaction with save/loads that causes it to stack (which is exactly what I've been saying in this thread! and now in this thread somehow it's always been some completely other effect) and in fact I tested the precise buff you said worked (as did others, ocelloter, decadence, and i believe waski as well). And sometimes it did work! Sometimes it didn't. Speaking for myself, I could not figure out the mechanism that made it work, so I didn't rely on it - so when it did end up stacking later on in my run, it was just a fun bonus that made the run a bit easier.

Edited March 24, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

i'm requoting this:

 

23 minutes ago, thelee said:

I'm happy for anyone to determine the cases in which resting bonuses can be made to trivially stack, consistently, outside of exploits.

I and several other ppl actually tried this and could not come up with a consistent rule. It might even be non-deterministic! Or maybe in a long-running game with no or low rests (which would otherwise reset food/rest bonuses) stack-ability becomes inevitable because of some deep underlying bug. Sometimes when I could get it to stack, it persisted that way the entire session (easily redo-able), sometimes it did not (again, I have no idea why just zoning through some areas happened to work in one case).

But please, barreling in with some categorical declarations of how something "always" worked which flies in the face of both tests and anecdotal experiences is not helpful.

Edited March 24, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

29 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

While this is a bug it's not even an exploit in the classical sense.

I mean outside of the "pause-before-you-rest" exploit to get an arbitrarily large number of rest bonuses