Shifter - multiclass or not?

[Exanos]

2 hours ago, Desmodeus said:

What about priest? Salvation of time to prolong spiritshift + minor avatar. Accuracy and deflection will get some hit though...

I suspect wizard will be better to prolong spiritshift with wall of draining, ( no need to be a priest to benefit from salvation of time) while having better instant buff. If you go priest, action economy will hurt you (cast time+recovery), and you will miss lot of goodie from martial class. 

If you go shifter, casting while shifted is a big no no so you wont be able to salvation time yourself too.

Druid/priest shine on buff/heal, not on main melee dps which i suppose is the main reason to go shifter.

[thelee]

yeah, minor avatar is pretty good, but it comes so late for a multiclass, that i'm not sure it's quite worth building around.

[dgray62]

3 hours ago, Exanos said:

I suspect wizard will be better to prolong spiritshift with wall of draining, ( no need to be a priest to benefit from salvation of time) while having better instant buff. If you go priest, action economy will hurt you (cast time+recovery), and you will miss lot of goodie from martial class. 

I agree. You could buff, cast WoD (for the tougher fights), then shift and wreak havoc.

[NotDumbEnough]

Another problem with Minor Avatar is that it takes a long time to cast. That's 4 seconds of you just standing there instead of getting into position. In addition it doesn't last super long and in harder fights you may need to empower and cast again.

[Jayd]

On 2/10/2021 at 5:29 PM, thelee said:

also, to OP's thread, I'm rolling a shifter/stalker beastmaster right now. it's still early days, but generous boar form DoT plus high ranger accuracy (will also help w/ spellcasting against megabosses where shift form is less useful due to finite duration), plus +1 AR and +5 Deflection from being near pet is promising. A bear form will have stupidly high AR by end-game (better than mythic plate, with no recovery penalty), stag form will have good defenses [especially if I pick up Beast's Claw later on], and of course boar form will just eat up everything else with stupid high accuracy.

plus there's some misc synergy - shifter gets a lot of DoT spells for free, which goes well with predator's sense in the ranger tree. ranger has good utility effects that you can use while shifted (like evasive roll).

it might not be as stupidly high DPS as a helwalker/shifter or streetfighter/shifter, but it seems like it has good promise.

I've enjoyed Beastmaster Shifter for a couple of playthroughs! A nice tech is Scordeo's Trophy with Strategic Blitz. With Gunner+Driving Flight you can get 4+ stacks of Strategic Blitz in a heartbeat and then shift without needing to wait for reload. Massive attack speed increase. This works on any Shifter build, but Beastmaster makes the most of it.

I'm currently running a Shifter/Berserker (a more min-maxed version of the last Tempest build I posted here a while back) and so far I think it's stronger than the Beastmaster (though can't say definitively yet). I've also played a Helwalker/Shifter and that was pretty crazy, but most of the damage ended up coming from spells so it'd have been better as an Ancient. I tried a Trickster up to maybe level 11 but it wasn't as exciting as I was hoping...maybe when it gets deathblows it'd knock my socks off? 

@theleereading about your disruptor theurge build in your guide, I want to see if the current Tempest can get in on some of those shenanigans late-game with Slayer's Claw giving it Energized. Those pulsing Druid spells interrupting on crits sounds like a great time!

[Jayd]

Been thinking about and testing my previous thought that the Tempest is better than the Beastmaster and have re-evaluated. I think that the Tempest is convincingly better than the Beastmaster in easy or average/run-of-the-mill fights. But the Beastmaster comes out ahead when it comes to taking out especially tough enemies: because of its accuracy and (this shouldn't be understated) Concussive Tranquilizer. CT utterly trivialises fights with enemies who use buffs for survivability, including many bosses but also enemies such as fighters spamming Unbending/Vigorous Defense who the Tempest could struggle to deal damage to.  The Tempest is who you want when there are a bunch of trash mobs to smash, but the Beastmaster is who you need when there’s a problem.

I’m also struck by just how squishy Berserkers are. Partly because you want your Druid to have high Might, so the self damage is pretty bad, but also because you can’t see their health while they are off smashing. More than once in not-too-much playing, my Tempest has died while the other characters were pretty healthy because I didn’t even know he needed attention. 

At this point I don’t think I’d declare one better than the other overall. Both are good builds which adopt the respective strengths of Barbarians and Rangers – Barbarians are good when they can get a lot of killing blows and Rangers are good at taking down especially tough enemies. You can argue that this makes Barbarians worse on balance because on-kill effects are essentially win-more while the Ranger's strengths have the opposite dynamic (they help you when you're struggling, not when you're already winning). But sometimes what you need is someone who can cut through a crowd with prejudice.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

[Boeroer]

42 minutes ago, Jayd said:

I’m also struck by just how squishy Berserkers are.                                                                                                                                                                                             

It doesn't help that a Fury (if you are playing a Berserker/Fury to begin with) can't have Rejuvenation spells so you're stuck with Stalwart Defiance (which is still good). That's why I seldomly play Berserker/Fury although thematically it's like a must imo and the +3 or even +4 PEN on elemental spells is so good.   But I just discovered that "Garden of Life" is only tagged with Plant and not Rejuvenation - but I didn't have the time to check if it's blocked for Furies anyway.

42 minutes ago, Jayd said:

More than once in not-too-much playing, my Tempest has died while the other characters were pretty healthy because I didn’t even know he needed attention.          

Because of that I use Blooded and often Death Godlikes for Berserker builds. Blooded will pop up under benefical effects as soon as the Berserker reaches the Bloodied status (50% health) and Pallid Fate will show up once you reach Near Death (25% health). Those are good indicators and make the obscured health a lot less annoying imo. You could also choose another race and pick up an item that triggers near death (Maker's Own Power for example) but most of them only work 1/rest and that's annoying and unreliable, too. Pallid Fate always works. The Magnificent Escape Cape is a great alternative though. It not only shows you that your Berserker is near death (because the Escape ability turns from grey to blue which is pretty obvious) but also it gives you the ability to escape and get +50 deflection right away - and it's 1/encounter and not 1/rest. Yay.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Boeroer

[Jayd]

16 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It doesn't help that a Fury can't have Rejuvenation spells so you're stuck with Stalwart Defiance (which is still good). But I just discovered that "Garden of Life" is only tagged with Plant and not Rejuvenation - but I didn't have the time to check if it's blocked for Furies anyway.

Sir, this is a Shifter thread, please carry that mess elsewhere  But seriously, according to thelee's guide, Furies don't get Garden of Life either.

A Shifter can slap on The Moon's Light to offset the self-damage before running around, but that's another finicky action economy penalty for just being a Berserker.

16 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Because of that I use Blooded and often Death Godlikes for Berserker builds. Blooded will pop up under benefical effects as soon as the Berserker reaches the Bloodied status (50% health) and Pallid Fate will show up once you reach Near Death (25% health). Those are good indicators and make the obscured health a lot less annoying imo. You could also choose another race and pick up an item that triggers near death (Maker's Own Power for example) but most of them only work 1/rest and that's annoying and unreliable, too. Pallid Fate always works. 

Yeah, I was using Blooded like this but it's not like it's a very noticeable indicator, especially when you have a bunch of effects going. You have to be actively looking for it periodically if you think you might be taking damage (which may not occur to you sometimes). It's a good tip but more finickiness for picking Berserker.

[Boeroer]

Sure. Furyshaper is a lot less of a hassle and the Fear Ward is bonkers if your character can engage (Thick Skinned). Although it takes some time to set up the ward - but still great imo.

You'll not get the +2 PEN and 30% crit conversion from Frenzy but you will get a lot of "free" high-PEN and high-ACC attacks in exchange (and less enemies who attack you). 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Boeroer

[Desmodeus]

16 hours ago, Boeroer said:

But I just discovered that "Garden of Life" is only tagged with Plant and not Rejuvenation - but I didn't have the time to check if it's blocked for Furies anyway.

It isn't blocked. Also some of summon spells are not marked as summoned creatures(oozes) so lifegiver casn use them

[thelee]

10 hours ago, Desmodeus said:

It isn't blocked. Also some of summon spells are not marked as summoned creatures(oozes) so lifegiver casn use them

it is blocked. i was planning out a fury and those healing-style spells (cleansing wind, garden of life, nature's bounty) cannot be selected by a fury, despite lacking the appropriate keyword.

[Desmodeus]

Just now, thelee said:

it is blocked. i was planning out a fury and those healing-style spells (cleansing wind, garden of life, nature's bounty) cannot be selected by a fury, despite lacking the appropriate keyword.

How long ago was that? I just recently checked and I was able to select them on fury sidekick... Strange.

[thelee]

1 minute ago, Desmodeus said:

How long ago was that? I just recently checked and I was able to select them on fury sidekick... Strange.

a few weeks ago, first for some preliminary research to plan out my fury via a level 19 adventurer that i hired--this is when i first discovered it and i crossed out those spells from my character plan in my notebook--and then again playing the character for real as a mainchar.

i can double-check again, but i doubt anything has changed.

 

do you have any mods? i don't use any mods. but i think one of the big bug fixes/tweaks of either the community patch or something similar floating around here in the forums is keyword-fixing, and fury + those spells would definitely be impacted by it.

[Desmodeus]

13 minutes ago, thelee said:

do you have any mods? i don't use any mods. but i think one of the big bug fixes/tweaks of either the community patch or something similar floating around here in the forums is keyword-fixing, and fury + those spells would definitely be impacted by it.

I have community patch yeah. Hmm, maybe its it.

[thelee]

i didn't see anything in the community patch notes about it, so just for good measure i quickly loaded up my fury save and added some xp (hope work doesn't mind  )

here are the reciepts:

 

[Jayd]

Thought it would be appropriate to say here that, after looking through Elric Galad's Balance Polishing Mod, I think his Druid changes are excellent and could make a single class Shifter a real option. The simple (and, I think, obviously and desperately needed) change to Wildstrike Frenzy to make it on-Crit turns those from really bad (on-Kill is win-more; spell kills don't even work) to some of the strongest martial passives in the game - what you would expect for having to surrender the potential of an entire martial subclass! Even though Shifters can't cast in animal form, the introduced +PL from Wildstrike can help their persistent spells having lost passive bonuses from weapons and armour.

I think I will try a SC Shifter with that mod sometime in the near future. @Elric Galad, you mentioned in this thread that you have a bug logged for Wildstrike Frenzy? Is it a bad one? I could wait if you're actively working on it.

[Elric Galad]

24 minutes ago, Jayd said:

Thought it would be appropriate to say here that, after looking through Elric Galad's Balance Polishing Mod, I think his Druid changes are excellent and could make a single class Shifter a real option. The simple (and, I think, obviously and desperately needed) change to Wildstrike Frenzy to make it on-Crit turns those from really bad (on-Kill is win-more; spell kills don't even work) to some of the strongest martial passives in the game - what you would expect for having to surrender the potential of an entire martial subclass! Even though Shifters can't cast in animal form, the introduced +PL from Wildstrike can help their persistent spells having lost passive bonuses from weapons and armour.

I think I will try a SC Shifter with that mod sometime in the near future. @Elric Galad, you mentioned in this thread that you have a bug logged for Wildstrike Frenzy? Is it a bad one? I could wait if you're actively working on it.

It is only for Fury to my knowledge, and I haven't directly checked it in-game.

Wildstrike Frenzy was tested and works.

Widstrike Frenzy scaling through also contributes a lot (it scales as a PL2 ability since it's technically a Widstrike upgrade).

The weakest animal forms were tweaked up, so Shifter gets the most benefits from them.

I do consider Shifter to be an Overpowered subclass in vanilla game though. The fact that you can cancel Spiritshift makes its drawback almost irrelevant. That's why the PL bonus were added as an indirect penalty for them, altough as you pointed it can still have marginal uses.

One last word : Entropy

Edited February 23, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Jayd]

3 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

The weakest animal forms were tweaked up, so Shifter gets the most benefits from them.

Right, I forgot to mention this. Thanks for making Wolf and Stag worth picking (especially Stag - the coolest looking)

4 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I do consider Shifter to be an Overpowered subclass though. The fact that you can cancel Spiritshift makes it drawback almost irrelevant. That's why the PL bonus were added as an indirect penalty for them, altough as you pointed it can still have marginal uses.

I'll take it. Most of the things I tend to be drawn to in games like this are bad . I think it's fine since Spiritshift isn't actually that intrinsically strong, especially since you lose access to weapon and armour perks when transformed. Having more serious downsides to the subclass would hurt a lot.

Glad to hear Frenzy works. Looking forward to combo-ing it with Entropy as you suggest. Thanks for the mod!

[Elric Galad]

"Overpowered" might have been a strong word. Strictly better than Animist is more accurate. Even if it relies on forms that aren't very strong, it is as very least an additional access to self-healing  

[Jayd]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

"Overpowered" might have been a strong word. Strictly better than Animist is more accurate. Even if it relies on forms that aren't very strong, it is as very least an additional access to self-healing  

I take your point, but this only applies if you use shifting for melee combat (or don't use it at all except to heal). The benefit of it for some Druids is the free AR or other benefits while casting. I use it that way often for Tekehu when he's getting focused. Or consider a tank build (maybe Liberator or Warden) that starts combat with Bear/Stag/Cat form (for AR/Defenses/Speed buff) while casting. Shifter couldn't do that and Animist would actually be the best choice (Ancient is squishy, Lifegiver gets penalty after shift, Fury can't heal).

[Elric Galad]

40 minutes ago, Jayd said:

I take your point, but this only applies if you use shifting for melee combat (or don't use it at all except to heal). The benefit of it for some Druids is the free AR or other benefits while casting. I use it that way often for Tekehu when he's getting focused. Or consider a tank build (maybe Liberator or Warden) that starts combat with Bear/Stag/Cat form (for AR/Defenses/Speed buff) while casting. Shifter couldn't do that and Animist would actually be the best choice (Ancient is squishy, Lifegiver gets penalty after shift, Fury can't heal).

Spiritshift armor >> other armors indeed.
But it comes with a "natural" dual wield. So you don't have the possibility to use a shield.

Is Spiritshift armor better than Armor + shield as a defense while casting ? Overall I'm not that sure. In certain cases, certainly, because AR can make you feel invicible against average PEN attacks.

While you're attacking and not casting, Spiritshift is a super solid defense buff. While casting, it's harder to say sincehaving a small shield has zero drawback.

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

It is only for Fury to my knowledge, and I haven't directly checked it in-game.

The bug with Wildtrike Frenzy on Fury has been observed in my game too.
The duration is increased but the attack is not launched.

Honnestly, I'm not sure it is my fault.
Question : does anyone has ever observed a Wildstrike Frenzy AoE attack proc with a Fury ?

 

Found my answer on the Fury thread

[CLASS GUIDE] Comprehensive Guide to the Fury Druid - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community

Jayd, you can go wild(strike) with your shifter, it's only about Fury.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

29 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

The duration is increased but the attack is not launched.

the effect is centered on the fury, like the other wildstrike frenzies - is it possible that you're out of range? (imo it's that fact that makes it useless for furies)

 

29 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Question : does anyone has ever observed a Wildstrike Frenzy AoE attack proc with a Fury ?

for my fury research and as part of a guide update i tested the fury out a bit, and it indeed procs, just in a small area around the fury, which isn't terribly useful.

[Phenomenum]

It's only 1,5 m. radius and originates from center of character. Due to large model size, even the closest enemies might be out of range.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Phenomenum

[Elric Galad]

11 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

It's only 1,5 m. radius and originates from center of character. Due to large model size, even the closest enemies might be out of range.

Even if it is On Kill, it would make more sense to be centered on the target, especially for Fury.