How to use Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming with ranged weapons

[Boeroer]

Hi,

since Swift Flurry always procs attack rolls that are done with the main hand even if the offhand triggered it  (see Sun & Moon in offhand and Battle Axe with Bleeding Cuts in main hand: lots of Bleeding Cuts from Swift Flurry without the recovery malus) I thought I'd give it a shot* and try if that also works with a ranged weapon in the main hand (and a melee weapon in the offhand obviously).

And it does!


Forget the times when you thought you couldn't use Fire in the Hole with Swift Flurry - you can! It even seems that Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming procs from the ranged weapon can proc additional procs. It's pretty crazy, I can tell you.

Other good ranged weapons for this: 

• Current's Rush (High Tide is powerful once it procs)
• Hand Mortar (with Blinding Smoke + Avenging Storm: ridiculous)
• Blunderbusses (every pellet seems to be able to trigger another shot)

Tried it with SC Monk with Whispers of the Wind (awesome) and also with Monk/Ranger using Driving Flight (higher chance to get proc-chains with Stunning Surge: also great. Especially nice is that you can combine it with Hunter's Claw which also works ranged weapons in the main hand- Using a blunderbuss or mortar lets you get those stacks pretty quickly.

Enjoy!

*

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Tested a bit further and it seems that even special procs from the melee weapon get triggered by Fire in the Hole's AoE if it gets used by Swift Flurry. At least I see a LOT of Extinction Events from Sungrazer going off whe I use it as my melee weapon in the offhand. 

Phew...

Edited October 26, 2020 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Noice!

[Powerotti]

Forbidden fist ability can do something similar, when community patch is installed, but with 2h weapons (tested with watershaper focus). CP tags FF as melee weapon attack, and that's why it can trigger SF/HBD even without melee weapon equiped. But as far, as I remember it can't proc multiple times

[Boeroer]

Maybe it doesn't proc further and it's just that with Whispers of the Wind and Sun&Moon + Fire in the Hole there's so many procs that it's hard to tell what triggered which.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

Hi folks,

I know this is an old post but I'm testing a solo Hand Mortar + Sun & Moon SC Helwalker right now. @Boeroer I just wanted to point out that the synergy in your awesome finding is even stronger because:

• Hand Mortar targets Reflex and the flail modal debuffs reflex by -25 (total crit fest)
• With Hylea's Talons equipped, the S&M strikes supplies you with wounds on top (which wouldn't work with a dual mortar monk)

So it seems that this setup is really the ultimate neverstopping Mortar Monk. To the point that I genuinely fear trying Avenging Storm - which is not needed anyway because Resonant Touch insanity - and have my GPU literally implode.

And as you pointed out in another thread, with the Belt of Magran's Chosen it goes even better... why on Eora is SC Monk so broken!  @Elric Galad just curious: have you considered the BPM nerf bat on WotW and ranged weapons?

[dgray62]

48 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

 @Elric Galad just curious: have you considered the BPM nerf bat on WotW and ranged weapons?

While I would never invoke the nerf bat, this is a very curious case.....how do you reload so many times so quickly while invisibly transiting from foe to foe?

[Not So Clever Hound]

54 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

While I would never invoke the nerf bat, this is a very curious case.....how do you reload so many times so quickly while invisibly transiting from foe to foe?

Well I guess this happens when:

 

 

That is the Deadfire implementation of SC Monk in a nutshell.   

 

As for the nerf bat... I agree with you but it makes zero sense that WotW works with ranged weaponry to begin with. Just like SoF shouldn't prolong buffs forever, etc.

If BDD + Ancestor's Memory + SoT  is a hearty Neufchâtel cheese, Ranged weaponry + WotW (+ Resonant Touch...) is a 40 year old Gorgonzola drenched in Grappa. If one gets a big nerf bat on the face, I think it's only fair that the other does too..? The other high level OP martial ability that remains and that I can think of is Vanishing Strike, but it's not as abusable as WotW (without SoF). Oh well, there's Gouging Strike and to a lower extent Brand Enemy too... but they're low level and they hardly will auto-win fights where you can't hide and wait things out.

 

Happy to hear if you have a different perspective, it's just a personal pet peeve of mine that Monks get such a late game stratospheric power curve compared to other martial classes.  

Edited December 28, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Not So Clever Hound]

We probably don't need another Mortar Monk Video  but just in case anyone is wondering what this is about: I just recorded the build above vs the Ikorno bounty on PotD Upscaled with full BPM & CP. Not a crazy fight by any means, but he has some Fighters with good defenses and AR that can pop Unbending, with lots of hard CC resistance. Should be a match for a SC martial. Well, kind-of . I'm also using the double Alt key-hitting trick.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Kaylon]

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Hi folks,

I know this is an old post but I'm testing a solo Hand Mortar + Sun & Moon SC Helwalker right now. @Boeroer I just wanted to point out that the synergy in your awesome finding is even stronger because:

• Hand Mortar targets Reflex and the flail modal debuffs reflex by -25 (total crit fest)
• With Hylea's Talons equipped, the S&M strikes supplies you with wounds on top (which wouldn't work with a dual mortar monk)

So it seems that this setup is really the ultimate neverstopping Mortar Monk. To the point that I genuinely fear trying Avenging Storm - which is not needed anyway because Resonant Touch insanity - and have my GPU literally implode.

And as you pointed out in another thread, with the Belt of Magran's Chosen it goes even better... why on Eora is SC Monk so broken!  @Elric Galad just curious: have you considered the BPM nerf bat on WotW and ranged weapons?

It's not the ultimate combo because the dot doesn't generate wounds fast enough and also because you damage yourself. The ultimate combo uses the synergy between Keeper of the Flame, Saint's War armor and Imagined Pain (with whatever weapon in the main hand). Personally I think Magran's Favor with Bleeding Cuts is still the best option overall even if the mortars look flashier.

Mortars have low dmg and acc, can't trigger Swift Flurry and are under performing if the enemies are not close. In other words I don't consider them OP compared to the melee version, thus no need for nerfs.

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

The ultimate combo uses the synergy between Keeper of the Flame, Saint's War armor and Imagined Pain (with whatever weapon in the main hand). Personally I think Magran's Favor with Bleeding Cuts is still the best option overall even if the mortars look flashier.

I agree, the Keeper of the Flame build has absolutely incredible synergy. I didn't write the ultimate SC Monk - just the ultimate Mortar Monk (ie.. to have heavy interaction with Avenging Storm and Resonant Touch for very demonstrative gameplay).

I personally think Grave Calling (Grave Bound) + Sun & Moon is the most consistent overall because you build quickly the paralyze effect that helps completely control the battlefield on top of the Stun from Ajamuut. Anyway, it's hard to find anything built around WotW that is not very good.

I disagree with you on Mortar WotW being balanced, but I also wasn't clear in my wording: I think that being able to use this ability with range weapons is not intended and is more of an oversight/bug. That you can achieve equal or better results with specific melee weapons combos doesn't matter.

[Elric Galad]

I would agree with Kaylon, I don't think there is a specific issue with Mortars.

Besides, I can onl make WotW requires a melee weapons, cause it is implemented as Whirling Strikes. As seen below, Melee + Ranged is about as good.

Reload is implemented as a Recovery. It might be unrealistic, but I don't want to change that.

[Boeroer]

33 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

Mortars have low dmg and acc, can't trigger Swift Flurry and are under performing if the enemies are not close. In other words I don't consider them OP compared to the melee version, thus no need for nerfs.

They work with Lighting Strikes though. Hand Mortar's Blinding Smoke generates Resonant Touch instances (lots of them) against multiple enemies. If you use a flail + modal and Hand Mortar then the lower ACC doesn't matter much because the -25 Reflex debuff helps the AoE hit rolls which target reflex (and proc Blinding Smoke cones which also target Reflex). 

There are already two mortar nerfs in the Community Patch: one removes Avenging Storm from Blinding Smoke and the other one limits the maximum stack of Resonant Touches (which you would easily breach with just one WotW if more than 2 enemies are present and rel. near each other). Because that was OP - at least in the vast majority of the ecounters.

I also don't call for further nerfs though. It's PL 9 so the majority of the game lies behind that charcter already - and it's a lot of fun imo.

Keeper of the Flame + Saint's War Armor + Imagined Pain is indeed very good.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

They work with Lighting Strikes though. Hand Mortar's Blinding Smoke generates Resonant Touch instances (lots of them) against multiple enemies.

Also the +INT from Turning Wheel increases the Mortar AoE thus increases overall damage output, and you can group at least the melee enemies together by starting the fight from stealth and having the enemy engage your Duplicates as I did in the video. And you can use Acina's Tricorn and the Ring of the Marksman and also the Harley pet.

Anyway I get the message, no one is remotely in favor of nerfing WotW + Ranged. Fair enough .

[dgray62]

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

If BDD + Ancestor's Memory + SoT  is a hearty Neufchâtel cheese, Ranged weaponry + WotW (+ Resonant Touch...) is a 40 year old Gorgonzola drenched in Grappa.

Very funny! I agree, monks do have an amazing late game evolution that few other classes can match. Yes, instant, multiple reloading of ranged weapons while invisible is a 40 year old Gorgonzola drenched in Grappa!

[Elric Galad]

Multiple reloading happens all the time in this game. That's not the main issue here IMHO.

However, I think it is right to think about a WotW nerf as a whole.

The first question to ask is : do we find Whirling Strikes and Heart of Fury OP ?

I think these abilities are powerful, but IMHO not broken. They require some setup to work perfectly and costs a lot of ressources. They aren't more broken than, let's say missile salvo. So nothing too wrong for a Nuking SC endgame IMHO.

 

Then what are the differences between WotW and these abilities ?

1) It can repeat targets (you can have 7 strikes - diablo 3, get out of here !  - without too much difficulty, with prestige and a random non stackable +1)

2) It even bounces from far (10m). I know that's not the case we are speaking about, but it contributes making WotW a bit too easy to use in all cases.

3) It cost a renewable ressource.

But the list can be expended

 

1) repeat target can be removed. The number of max targets can be reduced (keep in mind it should have +1 bounce per 2 bonus PL... Empower matters there.)

2) bounce range can be reduced if needed

3) Wound cost should stay BUT the cost can be upped. I think It costs 5 wounds because Shattered Pillar has 5 max wounds. But CP puts the limit to 10. So a monk ability could cost up to 9 wounds now (not 10 because Xoti  ). I would even think about some other Monk ability that could cost a little more than they do (the clones, resonant touch). 

All this won't kill the fun.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

I think WotW would be slightly less OP if all your attacks didn't gain extra penetration and accuracy as if it was a spell. Riposte, Mob Stance and Retaliation all do something similar but they are much more passive in nature and you can't force them to trigger.

Or remove the invisibility so that you can't use it with the cape that lets you stun on hit. I wonder if it would also mean that you could get hit while you use WotW.

Edited December 28, 2021 by NotDumbEnough

[Elric Galad]

2 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think WotW would be slightly less OP if all your attacks didn't gain extra penetration and accuracy as if it was a spell. Riposte, Mob Stance and Retaliation all do something similar but they are much more passive in nature and you can't force them to trigger.

Didn't know that. It sounds like it require some cleaning. Honnestly for all of them, it doesn't make senses.

Do you know by chance if HoF and Whirling Strikes get similar bonus ? Clear Out and its upgrades ?

2 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Or remove the invisibility so that you can't use it with the cape that lets you stun on hit. I wonder if it would also mean that you could get hit while you use WotW.

It deserves testing. If possible, yes, I agree. It could be the contrary, it could cause failed attacks because you move too fast.

[NotDumbEnough]

No it just seems to be triggered attacks that you don't directly command. Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming also have bonus accuracy and penetration due to their base level. I should also mention that they benefit from power level too, including accuracy and power level and penetration. Basically they're attacks in the form of spells.

[dgray62]

Don't all abilities, both spells and martial abilities, scale with PL, gaining bonus accuracy damage and PEN? There's nothing special about WotW here I think. But it does get extra jumps, like a spell or a cipher power like mind blades.

[NotDumbEnough]

No they don't. Try using Power Strike or something. You get exactly the penetration/accuracy/damage bonus that the tooltip states, whereas these give you additional bonuses just for being a certain level ability, just like Fireball and other spells. Also most martial abilities only get additional damage from power level, whereas Riposte, Mob Stance etc. get additional accuracy and penetration just as spells do. That makes sense for spells, since you can't upgrade them like weapons so you need to scale them one way or another. With these triggered attacks though you scale them twice, thus double dipping, since they take into account both power level scaling and weapon tier scaling.

For monks this is particularly important. Additional PL makes their fists stronger, AND makes their triggered attacks stronger too. With community patch, try using Forbidden Fist while near death on a Death Godlike as a single class monk that picks Prestige and has an Acute inspiration. You will do simply stupid amounts of damage because your weapon (your fists) and the Forbidden Fist ability are both scaling at the same time. With the community patch the Forbidden Fist ability is also treated like a spell, by the way.

[Not So Clever Hound]

So to recap, the things that make it OP:

• Renewable resource
• Weirdly scales like a spell
• Very generous targeting (Bounces + Repeat + Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming)
• Interaction with Ajamuut Cloak (and Avenging Storm like all multi-hit weapon abilities)
• Interaction with very strong weapon combos

 

A couple of leads - I'm certainly not suggesting all of them but maybe 1 or 2.

1. It could become a fist-only ability like FF (doesn't use equipped weapons but your fists)
2. It could cost e.g. 7 wounds (or minimum of 7 plus you lose all remaining wounds in the process because it's such a taxing/purging ability)
3. Or it could cost 5 Wounds and a Mortification
4. It could drop the weird scaling
5. It could drop Invisibility
6. It could have more limits on bounces and repeating on same target
7. It could not benefit from Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming (you move so fast)

 

There's probably more to think about but personally I think that implementing #1 + #4 or #1 + #2 + #4 could keep the ability super strong, maintain its spirit/uniqueness while making it less broken? I think #5, #6 and #7 are a bit sad, I don't like them personally. #3... I don't know.

What do you guys think?

BTW Elric I've started using the full complement of BPM (summons+buffs+nerfs). Love it!  

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

So to recap, the things that make it OP:

• Renewable resource
• Weirdly scales like a spell
• Very generous targeting (Bounces + Repeat + Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming)
• Interaction with Ajamuut Cloak (and Avenging Storm like all multi-hit weapon abilities)
• Interaction with very strong weapon combos

 

A couple of leads - I'm certainly not suggesting all of them but maybe 1 or 2.

1. It could become a fist-only ability like FF (doesn't use equipped weapons but your fists)

Don't know, I like the potential weapon combo. And fist only may be difficult.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1. It could cost e.g. 7 wounds (or minimum of 7 plus you lose all remaining wounds in the process because it's such a taxing/purging ability)

Easy to do, I'm leaning to that for now. Or even 9 wounds to be honest. 3 wounds ~ 1 martial ressource seems to be a good rule of thumb to evaluate wound cost.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1. Or it could cost 5 Wounds and a Mortification

Might be tricky to implement, and I rather keep the wound only cost.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1. It could drop the weird scaling

Sure, weapon+non-weapon scaling should be addressed as a whole.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1. It could drop Invisibility

Might be sad indeed. And not the heart of the pb if cost is addressed.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1. It could have more limits on bounces and repeating on same target

Easy to do, and a good solution. Repeat target is usually nice, but might be too much in this case.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

1. It could not benefit from Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming (you move so fast)

I don't like exceptions. And fixing the acc scaling could make it unecessary.

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

There's probably more to think about but personally I think that implementing #1 + #4 or #1 + #2 + #4 could keep the ability super strong, maintain its spirit/uniqueness while making it less broken? I think #5, #6 and #7 are a bit sad, I don't like them personally. #3... I don't know.

The Quote function didn't keep the number

51 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

What do you guys think?

BTW Elric I've started using the full complement of BPM (summons+buffs+nerfs). Love it!  

 

Great !

[Constentin Lévine]

23 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Weirdly scales like a spell

The PL scaling is not only for spells but abilities, the really weird thing is the non-scaling ones. 

It is right for abilities using weapon, they benefit also from the weapon's quality bonus , but every abilities are not concerned, like FF in vanilla game, or the Trickster's spells wich are abilities. 

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Also most martial abilities only get additional damage from power level, whereas Riposte, Mob Stance etc. get additional accuracy and penetration just as spells do.

Swift flurry also do that, and if you empower Confounding Blind, you can see a 2.5 pen and 10 acc bonus in combat log.

I'm the defender of PL scaling because, like for AR instead of DR, I think this is a major improvement in Pillars of Eternity. 

[Kaylon]

I never observed it until now, but in my game both mortars are bugged and trigger Powder Burns twice per attack. It happens just with the mortars, not with the regular blunderbusses. Can anyone confirm it?