Druid vs Wizard

[Lampros]

Who is better for a turn-based PoTD run with mega-bosses in mind?

[Haplok]

I don't have much experience with Druids. Mainly played a bit with Fassina Sorcerer. They are not bad, but particularly when multiclassed I think they lack the direct oomph a bit. They seem to focus more on Damage Over Time effects and debuffs.

[Elric Galad]

It depends on your party and the needed role.
Druids are healer, arguably the best ones.
It also depends if you want to play them multiclass or not, and with which combination.

Blood Mages are especially good vs Megabosses though.

But only Priest (who can completely cheese 2 megabosses) and to a lesser extant Cipher (for easy Brilliant) are really important. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

If you are looking at Megaboss fights specifically and want to compare isolated Druid to isolated Wizard then the Wizard wins - just because there is the Bloodmage subclass. Megaboss fights last a loooong time compared to most other encounters and all classes with fixed resources will have spend all their stuff long before the fight is over. Bloodmages can refill their spell uses with Blood Sacrifice. That's the advantage they have over other Druids (and the other Wizards). If you have some form of healing (be it from a fellow party member, items, food etc.) you can basically cast forever (with pauses maybe but still). In combination with Wall of Draining you can do a lot of weird stuff that a Druid can't. Especially with buffs from items. 

As soon as you have a party, a source of Brilliant (see Cipher for example) and Salvation of Time it's not that clear anymore. A druid can't have Wall of Draining of course, but with a Priest + Cipher in tow he can profit form Salvation of Time endlessly. A brilliant Druid with some stacks of Salvation of Time with then quasi-infinite healing/buffing and raw DoTs and CC spells can have a significant impact on a Megaboss fight. But you have to get there...

It doesn't matter much if you cast a Missile Salvo or Great Maelstrom so on the offensive side I don't see huge advantages for either one.

I think I personally would pick the Bloodmage because he's more impactful on the way to the late game contend - as long as the rest the druid can do and which the wiz can't (healing, party buffs) are covered by the rest of the party. 

[Haplok]

11 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It doesn't matter much if you cast a Missile Salvo or Great Maelstrom so on the offensive side I don't see huge advantages for either one.

Only Single Class characters get those, though. And before (if) they are available, I think a wizard has a significantly more instant direct damage potential. As well as more varied tools in his belt (most notably and frequently mentioned Wall of Draining, but also the like of Citzal's Lance, the bread & butter Combusting Wounds - although probably not very good in TB, Chilling Fog and others).

Edited October 21, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Don't know if there's actually that much of a difference given that druid has raw DoTs and sometimes enormous AoE sizes and that a Fury can gain higher PEN than a Wizard. I mean if you wanted to only take damage into account and leave the rest of a class aside (which is not a very useful analysis in my book but anyway).

Druids can be healers, buffers, CC/debuffers and damage dealers with the same char - while the Wizard can only do CC/debuff and deal damage. I personally think the special CC/debuff effects of Wizards are the best (see Pull oE, Miasma, Arcane Dampener and such). Thus the difference in damage dealing (compared to other casters) isn't that important to me. 

For me, in the end it depends on what your party needs. Since the druid can do a lot of stuff at the same time I guess it's often easer to find a slot for him than for the more specialized Wizard. Subclasses like Fury aside which are specialized on a certain role in the first place. 

But at the same time a Bloodmage has a big impact right from the start because of his simple spell-recharging mechanic that I would be inclined to use him if I didn't have before. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

It depends on your party and the needed role.
Druids are healer, arguably the best ones.
It also depends if you want to play them multiclass or not, and with which combination.

Blood Mages are especially good vs Megabosses though.

But only Priest (who can completely cheese 2 megabosses) and to a lesser extant Cipher (for easy Brilliant) are really important. 

I want to multi-class. Who is preferable in that case? And with what class combinations? I was planning to combine this character (Gandalf) with Paladin.

And can you tell me which mega-bosses that Priests can cheese?

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

If you are looking at Megaboss fights specifically and want to compare isolated Druid to isolated Wizard then the Wizard wins - just because there is the Bloodmage subclass. Megaboss fights last a loooong time compared to most other encounters and all classes with fixed resources will have spend all their stuff long before the fight is over. Bloodmages can refill their spell uses with Blood Sacrifice. That's the advantage they have over other Druids (and the other Wizards). If you have some form of healing (be it from a fellow party member, items, food etc.) you can basically cast forever (with pauses maybe but still). In combination with Wall of Draining you can do a lot of weird stuff that a Druid can't. Especially with buffs from items. 

As soon as you have a party, a source of Brilliant (see Cipher for example) and Salvation of Time it's not that clear anymore. A druid can't have Wall of Draining of course, but with a Priest + Cipher in tow he can profit form Salvation of Time endlessly. A brilliant Druid with some stacks of Salvation of Time with then quasi-infinite healing/buffing and raw DoTs and CC spells can have a significant impact on a Megaboss fight. But you have to get there...

It doesn't matter much if you cast a Missile Salvo or Great Maelstrom so on the offensive side I don't see huge advantages for either one.

I think I personally would pick the Bloodmage because he's more impactful on the way to the late game contend - as long as the rest the druid can do and which the wiz can't (healing, party buffs) are covered by the rest of the party. 

I will have a Cipher and a Priest.

So I guess it's up to me then. I am sort of inclined to try Druid in that case, as I've never played one even in PoE 1, and I want to try.

But can one Cipher in fact replenish everyone's resources?

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

Only Single Class characters get those, though. And before (if) they are available, I think a wizard has a significantly more instant direct damage potential. As well as more varied tools in his belt (most notably and frequently mentioned Wall of Draining, but also the like of Citzal's Lance, the bread & butter Combusting Wounds - although probably not very good in TB, Chilling Fog and others).

I will play turn-based. What would I rely on for both casters in turn-based?

 

47 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Don't know if there's actually that much of a difference given that druid has raw DoTs and sometimes enormous AoE sizes and that a Fury can gain higher PEN than a Wizard. I mean if you wanted to only take damage into account and leave the rest of a class aside (which is not a very useful analysis in my book but anyway).

Druids can be healers, buffers, CC/debuffers and damage dealers with the same char - while the Wizard can only do CC/debuff and deal damage. I personally think the special CC/debuff effects of Wizards are the best (see Pull oE, Miasma, Arcane Dampener and such). Thus the difference in damage dealing (compared to other casters) isn't that important to me. 

For me, in the end it depends on what your party needs. Since the druid can do a lot of stuff at the same time I guess it's often easer to find a slot for him than for the more specialized Wizard. Subclasses like Fury aside which are specialized on a certain role in the first place. 

But at the same time a Bloodmage has a big impact right from the start because of his simple spell-recharging mechanic that I would be inclined to use him if I didn't have before. 

Hmm, now you are making me waver again! So who combines better with a Paladin multi-class in a mid-line melee/support/nuker role?

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

I want to multi-class. Who is preferable in that case? And with what class combinations? I was planning to combine this character (Gandalf) with Paladin.

Wizard/Paladin and Druid/Paladin are both excellent. Wizard fits Gandalf bestthough.

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

And can you tell me which mega-bosses that Priests can cheese?

Dorudugan and Belranga. The others have some dispells.

1 hour ago, Lampros said:

Hmm, now you are making me waver again! So who combines better with a Paladin multi-class in a mid-line melee/support/nuker role?

Paladin is not mid-line. Paladin/Wizard is among the strongest tanks and even Paladin/Druid is tanky.  

[Boeroer]

Paladin goes very well with Wizard imo. Wizard has lots of direct dmg spells that profit from Eternal Devotion and also Wizard's self buffs stack nicely with Paladin's passive buffs, making an Arcane Knight a potentially quite tanky guy.

Paladin also works well with a Fury if you want the Fury's damaging capabilities with the rel. high spell penetration but still want to have some source of healing (via Lay on Hands). 

I personally would prefer Arcane Knight. Especially with Bloodmage since Lay on Hands and Exalted Endurance with Blood Sacrifice is a very useful synergy. My favorite is Steel Garrote/Bloodmage because of the draining that helps Blood Sacrifice even further - also in "mid range" with a reach weapon like Parasitic Staff (draining stacks with steel Garrote's) - but I know it's hard to pull off for a lot of players because of the cruel disposition for Steel Garrotes. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Wizard/Paladin and Druid/Paladin are both excellent. Wizard fits Gandalf bestthough.

Dorudugan and Belranga. The others have some dispells.

Paladin is not mid-line. Paladin/Wizard is among the strongest tanks and even Paladin/Druid is tanky.  

 

14 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Paladin goes very well with Wizard imo. Wizard has lots of direct dmg spells that profit from Eternal Devotion and also Wizard's self buffs stack nicely with Paladin's passive buffs, making an Arcane Knight a potentially quite tanky guy.

Paladin also works well with a Fury if you want the Fury's damaging capabilities with the rel. high spell penetration but still want to have some source of healing (via Lay on Hands). 

I personally would prefer Arcane Knight. Especially with Bloodmage since Lay on Hands and Exalted Endurance with Blood Sacrifice is a very useful synergy. My favorite is Steel Garrote/Bloodmage because of the draining that helps Blood Sacrifice even further - also in "mid range" with a reach weapon like Parasitic Staff (draining stacks with steel Garrote's) - but I know it's hard to pull off for a lot of players because of the cruel disposition for Steel Garrotes. 

Oops. I already started the game; I was theory-crafting for so long that I couldn't wait any longer! I ultimately ended up with Gandalf as Priest/Paladin and Arwen as Druid/Chanter. So I picked Druid over Wizard as the party's main nuker. The decisive consideration was that Druid offers a bit more utility, as Boerer outlined.

As for Paladin being better as a front-liner: I realize that. But I already have 2 front-liners, and 3 front-liners can get really crowded with 1 character basically doing nothing.

[Edit: I also seem to have asked the wrong question: I meant to ask "whether a Druid or a Wizard multi-classes better with a Chanter" - not "whether a Druid or a Wizard multi-classes better with a Paladin"! ]

[dgray62]

It seems you made some  great choices, Lampros. Priest/paladin is great for a fire nuker/buffer/healer, and theurge is a classic combo that works very well. Hope you enjoy your run!

[Lampros]

On 10/21/2020 at 5:30 PM, dgray62 said:

It seems you made some  great choices, Lampros. Priest/paladin is great for a fire nuker/buffer/healer, and theurge is a classic combo that works very well. Hope you enjoy your run!

Just a question about Druid spells: Are there any early Druid nukes worth getting before Returning Storm? In my last aborted Fellowship of the Ring group, I had real trouble mustering enough DPS for the first 8 levels - which is partly why I am re-starting. Overall, turn-based is surprisingly hard(er). Among other things, I need either massive AoE or massive CC, given that I no longer dominate the action economy.

[Boeroer]

Touch of Rot is a good dmg spell in RTwP.

Insect Plague + Infestation of Maggots, too. Don't know how they behave in TB mode though.

[Lampros]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Touch of Rot is a good dmg spell in RTwP.

Insect Plague + Infestation of Maggots, too. Don't know how they behave in TB mode though.

Thanks. I will slot a few of them. I will also slot Torment's Reach early and not wait till later on my Fighter/Monk. I just need as much AoE as possible. Of course, this may be moot if I reform my party and bring in a 2nd Chanter multi-class, as 2 Chanters will perma stun many enemy groups.

[Haplok]

You'd really have a much easier early game with a Bloodmage... 

[Lampros]

8 minutes ago, Haplok said:

You'd really have a much easier early game with a Bloodmage... 

I am considering...

[mjo2138]

What do you guys think about Wizard vs. Druid early and mid game (POTD upscaled all)? It feels like Aloth does not dish out too much damage with only his 1-5 powerlevels spells; I cast a few fireballs and that is the only stat I can attack from enemy mobs. Teheku, on the other hand, is very versatile, especially if you bump him with +shock PL using the Deltro's cage and Lord Darroy's 2her.  I just love wizards, but I wonder if it is worth having him throughout hte game. 

[Boeroer]

Wizards have the best CC and debuff spells and later also great damaging spells. 

Chillfog and Slicken alone can make a big difference. Miasma is just great. And my beloved Pull of Eora: there's nothing like it. 

Fireball is for... beginners.

 

[Lampros]

1 hour ago, mjo2138 said:

What do you guys think about Wizard vs. Druid early and mid game (POTD upscaled all)? It feels like Aloth does not dish out too much damage with only his 1-5 powerlevels spells; I cast a few fireballs and that is the only stat I can attack from enemy mobs. Teheku, on the other hand, is very versatile, especially if you bump him with +shock PL using the Deltro's cage and Lord Darroy's 2her.  I just love wizards, but I wonder if it is worth having him throughout hte game. 

Not precisely on topic but sort of related:

I am struggling in terms of whether I give my Druid/Chanter the full Relentless Storm gear (the Cage and the sounbound poleaxe you mention) or have her use a nice shield and the Sasha's scimitar. I guess this decision was forced by the decision to combine Druid and Chanter (which I am not regretting); and I did not think about end-game gear. So what do you guys think? Does the 5 PL from the full Relentless Storm set-up justify giving up the Sasha's scimitar and the benefits to Chanter the latter provides? Or vice versa?

Edit: I am also wondering whether the Cage will be worth the extreme loss of casting speed - or does the 2 PL justify it?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Lampros

[Elric Galad]

Tekehu is a special case though. He has access to Chillfog... which is indeed a wizard spell.

Druid Moon's light and Nature's Balm (which is great as the first spell to cast if one positions a druid at the center of the party) are incredibly useful early on.

That's the real reason why they are hard to compare : they simply don't play the same role.

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Lampros said:

Not precisely on topic but sort of related:

I am struggling in terms of whether I give my Druid/Chanter the full Relentless Storm gear (the Cage and the sounbound poleaxe you mention) or have her use a nice shield and the Sasha's scimitar. I guess this decision was forced by the decision to combine Druid and Chanter (which I am not regretting); and I did not think about end-game gear. So what do you guys think? Does the 5 PL from the full Relentless Storm set-up justify giving up the Sasha's scimitar and the benefits to Chanter the latter provides? Or vice versa?

Edit: I am also wondering whether the Cage will be worth the extreme loss of casting speed - or does the 2 PL justify it?

Why choosing ? You have 2 sets !

Use the voulge during most fights and keep Sasha's (+shield ) when you want to Empower an Invocation or just tank a little better.

[Boeroer]

Note that the shocking lash from the scimitar works with spells - so the choice not that easy.

[Lampros]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Why choosing ? You have 2 sets !

Use the voulge during most fights and keep Sasha's (+shield ) when you want to Empower an Invocation or just tank a little better.

Good point - why didn't I think of that before?!

What about the Cage? Doesn't it slow down the casting too much?

42 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Note that the shocking lash from the scimitar works with spells - so the choice not that easy.

What do you prefer yourself?

[Boeroer]

That would depend on what character idea I had in mind. Despite all the theorycrafting and minmaxing stuff I prefer that my characters have some sort of story, coherent theme or such stuff which helps me to connect to them so that they don't feel like some faceless mashup.

In case of Chanter/Druid I would lean to the scimitar though. Also because then there would be one hand left which could hold stuff like the Weyc's Wand or Griffin's Blade and such.

[Lampros]

1 minute ago, Boeroer said:

That would depend on what character idea I had in mind. Despite all the theorycrafting and minmaxing stuff I prefer that my characters have some sort of story, coherent theme or such stuff which helps me to connect to them so that they don't feel like some faceless mashup.

In case of Chanter/Druid I would lean to the scimitar though. Also because then there would be one hand left which could hold stuff like the Weyc's Wand or Griffin's Blade and such.

Got it. I was thinking of doing that, too - but let me see how things look with the poleaxe approach. I am only level 10, so I don't have Relentless Storm and won't form a while.