Ivan the Terrible Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Just played Deus Ex for the first time. Great game, really great; I predict I'll be playing it again soon. Remarking on the ending(s), though they were somewhat disappointing, I really liked how there was no clear 'right' and 'wrong' choice. You had three options; all three had their good sides and their down sides, and in the end which one you chose had less to do with whether you were 'good' or 'evil' as simply what values you hold dearest; freedom, stability, or power wielded for the good of all? I think the chances of this being the case for KOTOR II are pretty low; the Star Wars universe isn't exactly a place of moral ambiguity. Nevertheless, with several strong statements from the folks at Obsidian implying the game will be 'darker', I can't help but hope that when we reach the end, our options will consist of something more developed than 'save the Galaxy' or 'conquer the Galaxy.' They can still do that, but have the victory in either case be a little less clear cut. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
EnderAndrew Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 In general, the endings of KOTOR were lacking. I'm not sure we'll see an ending of moral ambiguity despite the possiblity of playing a "grey" within the rule mechanics. This is Star Wars after-all.
Ivan the Terrible Posted June 2, 2004 Author Posted June 2, 2004 In general, the endings of KOTOR were lacking. I'm not sure we'll see an ending of moral ambiguity despite the possiblity of playing a "grey" within the rule mechanics. This is Star Wars after-all. Yes, but there are 'good' endings in the sense of sugary-sweet, the-entire-cast-and-crew-waving-to-cheering-crowds stuff and 'good' endings in the sense of.....say, the originally proposed redemption of the female Revan by Carth. If you haven't read about that, if you went Dark Side as a female and were involved in a romance with Carth, he would confront you on the Star Forge and you had the option of being redeemed by him and destroying the Star Forge with you and him on it to save the Galaxy. Bittersweet stuff. Unfortunately, it never made it in game.....but that's an example of a 'good' ending that doesn't make me want to gag. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Dr. Lobotomy Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 If they can't go for a grey-area ending, the next best thing would be a Fallout-style clipshow revealing the good and/or bad fate of certain cities/areas and also specific individuals. You might have been a saint as you travelled the wasteland tog et that waterchip, but if you were too slow the Hub, Necropolis and the Followers of the Apocalypse would get obliterated. Or learning that Myron took his dirtnap in the Den and that Broken Hills is screwed no matter what were nice touches reminding you that it wasn't a perfect world. KotoR could have used that, I wanted to know how Manaan fared after I totally screwed up their Kolto, If Griff's Tarisian ale scheme worked, If that stowaway girl I returned to Dantooine got blasted by the Sith or what happens to each party members, especially those involved in the romances.
EnderAndrew Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 If that stowaway girl I returned to Dantooine got blasted by the Sith or what happens to each party members, especially those involved in the romances. I never thought about that until just now. Wow. I was likely responsible for her death while playing a LS character. Sadly, this made me chuckle.
Ivan the Terrible Posted June 2, 2004 Author Posted June 2, 2004 If Griff's Tarisian ale scheme worked It doesn't. Visit Tatooine sometime after you give him the Tach gland. Otherwise, though, I agree wholeheartedly. The slideshow depiction of what happened to the places you visited was a stroke of genius on Fallout's part. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Lord Tingeling Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 If you haven't read about that, if you went Dark Side as a female and were involved in a romance with Carth, he would confront you on the Star Forge and you had the option of being redeemed by him and destroying the Star Forge with you and him on it to save the Galaxy. Bittersweet stuff. Unfortunately, it never made it in game.....but that's an example of a 'good' ending that doesn't make me want to gag. It's all about the RP'ing, dude. While it's too bad that didn't make it into the game, I experienced something similar on my third (or was it fourth?) playthrough. My female jedi had been sinking more and more towards the Dark Side as time progressed. When she found out that she was Revan, it got even worse. One thing led to another, and not before long, she, Bastila and Jolee (Our dear Cath was already ten feet under) were standing on top of the temple summit. Well, it got all rowdy-dowdy with Bastila wanting Revan to join her, and my char agreed. But she couldn't strike down Jolee. She just couldn't, considering the many talks they had shared, etc etc etc. So eventually she rejected the Dark Side. The ending kinda spoiled things, but it still felt better than the usual, flat "goody shoes" character people are so fond of playing- it felt like I RP'ed something with more depth that time, so to speak. Gray endings roolz. More of them, I say. "McDonald's taste damn good. I'd rtahe reat their wonderful food then the poisonous junk you server in your house that's for sure. What's funny is I'm not fat. In fact, I'm skinny. Though I am as healthy as cna be. Outside of being very ugly, and the common cold once in the blue moon I simply don't get sick." - Volourn, Slayer of Yrkoon! "I want a Lightsaber named Mr. Zappy" -- Darque "I'm going to call mine Darque. Then I can turn Darque on anytime I want." -- GhostofAnakin
Child of Flame Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 If you haven't read about that, if you went Dark Side as a female and were involved in a romance with Carth, he would confront you on the Star Forge and you had the option of being redeemed by him and destroying the Star Forge with you and him on it to save the Galaxy. Bittersweet stuff. Unfortunately, it never made it in game.....but that's an example of a 'good' ending that doesn't make me want to gag. It's all about the RP'ing, dude. While it's too bad that didn't make it into the game, I experienced something similar on my third (or was it fourth?) playthrough. My female jedi had been sinking more and more towards the Dark Side as time progressed. When she found out that she was Revan, it got even worse. One thing led to another, and not before long, she, Bastila and Jolee (Our dear Cath was already ten feet under) were standing on top of the temple summit. Well, it got all rowdy-dowdy with Bastila wanting Revan to join her, and my char agreed. But she couldn't strike down Jolee. She just couldn't, considering the many talks they had shared, etc etc etc. So eventually she rejected the Dark Side. The ending kinda spoiled things, but it still felt better than the usual, flat "goody shoes" character people are so fond of playing- it felt like I RP'ed something with more depth that time, so to speak. Gray endings roolz. More of them, I say. lol, I'm glad I'm not the only person who did that. My first game, I started out lightside, when I found out the Jedi council had lied to me midway through though, I went uber-Dark as I was pissed off at how they played me....but then when I got to the temple summit, I just couldn't strike Jolee and Juhani down, so I ended up with a rather greyish light ending.
Seth Tansill Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Deus Ex is a pure example of what RPGs should be like, and never at one point did I feel it was ridiculous either. I think that the endings in it were a bit lacking cos they were short, but it left much for the imagination and a thinking point with which to dwell on. On the other hand, there were times in KotOR which did feel a bit, well, uncomprehensible. Saving the galaxy on the whole seemed so cliched it was difficult at points to relate to the character and what the game was for. And ugh ugh ugh horrible endings for KotOR, just, quite unfulfilling. I think KotORII is going in the right direction with the darker tone. I want the PC to have an involvement that is perhaps less subtle in saving the galaxy once again, such that you aren't overwhelmed by the whiff of cliches. Please! Make the endings longer, more fulfilling, I don't want hoardes of plastic cut outs cheering me. I want to see the effects of my actions. Anyway, now I'm rambling.
Darth Jebus Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 If you haven't read about that, if you went Dark Side as a female and were involved in a romance with Carth, he would confront you on the Star Forge and you had the option of being redeemed by him and destroying the Star Forge with you and him on it to save the Galaxy. Bittersweet stuff. Unfortunately, it never made it in game.....but that's an example of a 'good' ending that doesn't make me want to gag. I agree with you, man. I've been harping on this since I registered here. The best example of this morally grey area in the Star Wars univers that I can think of is the story of Ulic Qel-Droma. I thought it was well written and developed. But like I side in another thread that you had started a while back....I think because of it's label, I don't know how dark or grey it's going to be allowed to get.
OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 NO! Unless of course, you can disembowal him... :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:
Meshugger Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Just played Deus Ex for the first time. Great game, really great; I predict I'll be playing it again soon. Remarking on the ending(s), though they were somewhat disappointing, I really liked how there was no clear 'right' and 'wrong' choice. You had three options; all three had their good sides and their down sides, and in the end which one you chose had less to do with whether you were 'good' or 'evil' as simply what values you hold dearest; freedom, stability, or power wielded for the good of all? I think the chances of this being the case for KOTOR II are pretty low; the Star Wars universe isn't exactly a place of moral ambiguity. Nevertheless, with several strong statements from the folks at Obsidian implying the game will be 'darker', I can't help but hope that when we reach the end, our options will consist of something more developed than 'save the Galaxy' or 'conquer the Galaxy.' They can still do that, but have the victory in either case be a little less clear cut. The three diffirent endings that were presented by the of Deus Ex were wonderful. No matter what you do, there was always a catch. But Deus Ex suffered from the same as KotOR did, and that was the lack of a 'complete' ending, you never saw the consequenses of your actions when the game was finished. When reading the interview at valhalla games, one can be certain that the LS ending won't be a happy ending as in Star Wars happy ending, i'll bet it will be bittersweet at best. There was a suggestion in another thread about the ending being like it was in 'Return of the Jedi', which should suit KotOR II's dark nature perfectly. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Ivan the Terrible Posted June 2, 2004 Author Posted June 2, 2004 There was a suggestion in another thread about the ending being like it was in 'Return of the Jedi', which should suit KotOR II's dark nature perfectly. Minus the Ewoks singing 'yub yub', I hope. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Don't remind me...but I think a bittersweet ending might fit KotOR well, IMO...
Meshugger Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 There was a suggestion in another thread about the ending being like it was in 'Return of the Jedi', which should suit KotOR II's dark nature perfectly. Minus the Ewoks singing 'yub yub', I hope. Yes, minus the 'yub-yub' chanting in the background. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
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