Priests and the Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod

[bell88]

Hey! First and foremost I just wanted to say thanks to Eric Galad for this awesome mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/438?tab=images) that builds on the community patch. Those two mods are basically essential (along with the UI mod) in my opinion.

I just wanted to start this thread to ask for some clarifications on priests (with this mod + community patch) and make a feature request

1) I noticed Xoti doesn't have the Tier 9 'Summon Incarnate' spell. I checked without mods and this remains true. Maybe I'm misremembering - but I could have sworn this was not always the case. I noticed that C Lee's Game FAQs (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/priest) mentions that the Gaun incarnate is the same as the Eothas incarnate suggesting I remembered correctly - so was this changed at some point and removed from her skill tree in a previous official patch?

As a feature request - can I suggest either way giving the 'Eothas Incarnate' to Xoti at Tier 9. I think it makes sense - not least because one of the Dawnbringers that's summoned seems to wield a sickle (and so is clearly representing the Gaun aspect of Eothas anyway).

2) I realise this is perhaps beyond the scope of your mod, but equally it could be added as an additional package (just like summon rebalance) but would you consider changing the automatic spells that the priest subclasses get from vanilla? There used to be several mods on the Nexus that attempted this - but they all seem to be discontinued. I remember in particular Stardusk's Dynamic Priests mod - but it looks abandoned (the file is set to hidden on the Nexus as of 20/09/20) and was unfortunately quite overpowered and unbalanced the last time I played it (despite overall being an impressive achievement). It was also a radical change from vanilla which is not what I'm suggesting here.

I'm thinking just slight tweaks to the automatic spells that Berath, Eothas, Magran and Gaun get. (I think Wael, Skaen and Rymrgand are good as is and don't require any changes). If you'd be up for doing this - perhaps we could use this thread to discuss possible suggestions for what those could be. Woedica is complicated - I think their automatic spells are fine as is - what's more difficult there is they don't get 'Symbol' or 'Incarnate' spells. It would be great to add their own versions of those - but I expect that would be almost impossible to do.

3) Finally I remember about a year ago reading that there was a plan to add trinkets for priests (and also druids) with bonus spells. Was this ever added as a mod on the Nexus? I can't seem to find it anywhere

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, bell88 said:

3) Finally I remember about a year ago reading that there was a plan to add trinkets for priests (and also druids) with bonus spells. Was this ever added as a mod on the Nexus? I can't seem to find it anywhere

There were plans and I pitched some ideas for trinkets (covering the basic premise that Priests and Druids need more flexibility when it comes to ability choice - like Wizards have with their grimoires) in order to discuss and find a good consensus. Unfortunately not everybody in the "mod group" (so to speak) was sharing my opinions on how those trinkets should work. I mean I wasn't expecting that everybody would be like "wow cool ok let's do that" - I just wanted to say that sorting those things out takes a bit of time (and a lot of posts  ). Before we could make a real job of it @MaxQuest and @Phenomenum who did the actual implementations pretty much vanished from these forums and thus the trinkets mod couldn't get finished, sorry.  

[Elric Galad]

First of all, thank you for your support to the mod !

One thing to consider is that... my second child is half her way to this earth, so I've only a couple of months left before my free time get super crunched for a handful of years (yup, I sleep more than 5 hours a night). That is to explain I won't have too ambitious goals about the mod. 
I'm currently working again (well since yesterday) on version 1.3 about a couple of changes (passive abilities scaling - especially their PEN because it's currently a pain , making godlike race fully satisfying and a couple of bugfixes). I would also like to... well... play a little.


1) To be exact, it's 2 priests with sickles. The priest with staff does not work properly in the game, so I had to replace her bya second priest with sickle

I guess it would make sense to give this option to Xoti, but Xoti gets lashing vine as a replacement. It's not ideal, but I think it's enough. At least the Vine is controllable, does not penalize Power Level and has beautiful 14 PEN attacks. The reason why I don't think it's too much necessary for her is that priests have good tier IX options anyway (at least since I've tweaked most of them).

2) Yup, slightly beyond what I defined as the mod's scope.
Also take into account that I basically balanced the strength of Incarnates around the quality of Free spells. (Wael ~ Skaen > Berath ~ Magran > Eoatas, reversed for Incarnates)
So changing the auto-spells would also require me to rethink about Incarnates, which were possibly the most complicated ability to balance of them all.

But there's mods around that probably do this, and if they only change Progression Tables, they should be fully compatible with my mod. I avoid touching Progression Tables.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Noqn]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

One thing to consider is that... my second child is half her way to this earth

Huge congratulations!

On 9/20/2020 at 4:11 PM, Boeroer said:

There were plans and I pitched some ideas for trinkets (covering the basic premise that Priests and Druids need more flexibility when it comes to ability choice - like Wizards have with their grimoires) in order to discuss and find a good consensus.

Whoa, tell me more about this.

[Noqn]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:15 PM, bell88 said:

I realise this is perhaps beyond the scope of your mod, but equally it could be added as an additional package (just like summon rebalance) but would you consider changing the automatic spells that the priest subclasses get from vanilla?

I'd love to talk about this.

On 9/20/2020 at 1:15 PM, bell88 said:

I'm thinking just slight tweaks to the automatic spells that Berath, Eothas, Magran and Gaun get. (I think Wael, Skaen and Rymrgand are good as is and don't require any changes). Woedica is complicated - I think their automatic spells are fine as is - what's more difficult there is they don't get 'Symbol' or 'Incarnate' spells. It would be great to add their own versions of those - but I expect that would be almost impossible to do.

Woedica is tricky indeed. I've been looking at spawnable creatures that could act as a substitute for the Strangler, but there are none that fits the bill. I vaguely remember someone throwing around the idea of giving Woedica access to Skaen's incarnate instead, and renaming it to "Slave Incarnate". What;s your opinion on that?

Users have pointed out that a "Symbol of Woedica" might be redundant with the "Writ" line of spells and I've come to agree with that argument. But she definitely deserves some unique Lv8 Spell.

 

Anyhow I'll post this table for overview

Druid

Rogue

Wizard

Unique

	Berath	Eothas	Gaun	Magran	Rymrgand	Skaen	Wael	Woedica
Lv1	Touch of Rot	Sunbeam	Blessed Harvest	Fan of Flames	Touch of Rot	Barbs of Condemnation	Arcame Veil	Writ of Engagement
Lv2	Holy Meditation	Withdraw	Withdraw	Spiritual Weapon	Blizzard	Escape	Ionic Projection	Spiritual Weapon
Lv3	Spreading Plague	Watchful Presence	Vile Thorns	Ray of Fire	Spreading Plague	Divine Mark	Mirrored Image	Writ of Consumption
Lv4	Divine Terror	Circle of Protection	Circle of Protection	Shining Beacon	Noxious burst	Finishing blow	Llengrath’s Displaced Image	Divine Terror
Lv5	Rot skulls	Revive the Fallen	Wicked Briars	Flame Shield	Blast of Frost	Shadowing Beyond	Confusion	Writ of War
Lv6	Salvation of Time	Minor Intercession	Minor Intercession	Pillar of Holy Fire	Ninagauth’s Freezing Pillar	Spiritual Ally	Arkemyr’s Wondrous Torment	Pillars of Holy Fire
Lv7	Rusted Armor	Resurrection	Wall of Thorns	Torrent of Flame	Death Ring	Minor Avatar	Gaze of the Adragan	Writ of Sorcery
Lv8	Symbol of Berath	Symbol of Eothas	Symbol of Eothas	Symbol of Magran	Symbol of Rymrgand	Symbol of Skaen	Synbol of Wael	Hand of Weal and Woe
Lv9	Hand of Berath	Light of Eothas	Lashing Vine	Magran’s Might	Call of Rymrgand	Revenge of Skaen	Blessing of Wael	Writ of Mending

Edited September 22, 2020 by Noqn

[Noqn]

I do remember thinking that the Dynamic Priest mod had some good ideas, shame it has been hidden.

On the top of my head, Spells that might fit the priests thematically regardless of balance issues:

Berath:

• Necrotic Lance
• Dimensional Shift, doors?
• Touch of Death, as optional Lv9 spell?
• Boil Their Flesh From Skin to Bone
• Death Ring

Eothas:

• Two Fingers of Daylight
• Sunlance
• The Light of Dawn
• Light of Pure Zeal
• Glorious Beacon

Magran:

• Combusting Wounds
• Wall of Fire
• Fun Fire Spells idk?

Rymrgand

Skaen

• Shatter their Shackles

Wael

• Possibly a fitting lv2 Spell for a full set?

Woedica

• Garrote
• Fealty
• Thrice Was She Wronged and Thrice Justly Avenged / Her Revenge Swept Across the Land
• With Furious Vengeance
• Memory Related Abilities
  • Recall Agony
  • Fractured Volition
  • Mind Plague
  • Haunting Chains
  • Valorous Echoes
  • Ancestor's Memory
  • Driving Echoes

[Boeroer]

I made some trinkets themed around death (so Berath actually), light (Eothas) and so on. They should be here in the forum somewhere but I also still might have the original textfile.

Stuff for the Berathian trinket included Touch of Death (Druid) and Cloak of Death (Wizard) iirc. But I would not use the original name and icon since these "borrowed" abilites from other classes are hard copies in most cases anyway so you can just use the mechanic and FX but give it a more unique flair by providing a unique name, icon (maybe just tinted or otherwise slightly edited in order to make it simple) and description. 

The ethasian trinket included a lot of chanter and paladin stuff - everything with light basically. 

We also discussed that there are spells that usually never get picked because they are too situational or limited and you wouldn't want to "waste" a precious ability point on them (for example Liturgies etc.). So I made some trinkets that provided those spells like a grimoire would. That way you can bring them whenever you like and also switch trinkets from the quick slots for other situations.

 

[Boeroer]

found it:

Trinkets

Priest

Name: Dyrwoodan Prayerbook

Description: This small book contains some simple and catchy prayers and litanies that are known and used in most churches throughout the Dyrwood. One of the former owners has left several helpful annotations about proper intonation and cadence.

Contained spells:
    1. -
    2. Prayer for the Body
    3. Prayer for the Spirit
    4. Litany for the Body
    5. Litany for the Spirit
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Additional effects:
    • +1 PL with Inspiration spells

Name: Sermon of Punishment and Redemption

Description: Saint Rumbalt was among the first of the Eothasian pilgrims to take up the Emperor's offer of resettlement in the distant territory of Readceras. A dedicated priest of the Shining God, Rumbalt was regarded as a leader in his community, known both for his unwavering dedication to his congregation and his stern vigilance against lapses in doctrine. What survives of his sermons reflects this duality, for he emphasized the redemptive power of the faith even as he warned against the dire punishments awaiting those who rejected Eothas' beneficence.

Contained spells:
    1. Barbs of Condemnation
    2. Pillar of Faith
    3. Divine Mark
    4. Shining Beacon
    5. Searing Seal
    6. Pillar of Holy Fire
    7. Storm of Holy Fire
    8. Symbol of Eothas
    9. Light of Eothas

Effects:
    • +1 PL to all Punishment spells

 

Name: Building on Solid Foundations 

Description: This essay refers to the well known book „Daily Affirmations of Focus and Efficiency“  that is very popular among followers of Abydon. It describes certain excercises techniques that allow a priest to improve and refine some of their basic abilites.  

Contained spells/effects:
    1. Interdiction
    2. Inspiring Radiance (+10 ACC AoE buff)
    3. Empowered Interdiction (+10 ACC)
    4. Aggrandizing Radiance (+2 to stats)
    5. Painful Interdiction (weaken)
    6. Brilliant Radiance (burn damage)
    7. Intimidating Interdiction (frighten)
    8. Reviving Radiance (revive like Revive the Fallen, but AoE)
    9. Anathema (disoriented)

Effects:
    • none

 

Name: Amber Star

Description: The six-pointed star is carved from amber. Numerous small pieces of violet crystal are entrapped within it.

Contained spells/effects:
    1. Restore
    2. Light of the Dawnstars (The Moon‘s Light, Restoration)
    3. Consecrated Ground
    4. Aurora (Moonwell, Restoration, Protection)
    5. Rays of the Morning Sun (...And Evil turned away from the Sun, Restoration, Protection)
    6. Sunlance (Punishment)
    7. Storm of Holy Fire
    8. Hand of Weal and Woe
    9. Light of the Midday Sun (Light of Pure Zeal, Punishment, Restoration) 

Effects:
    • Favor of the Dawnstars: +10% healing done 

 

Name: Sentry Figurine

Description: This small figurine of an armor clad sentry is made of soapstone. A miniscule engraving on its back says „The guardian of our faith will let no heathen pass“.  

Contained spells/effects:
    1. Halt
    2. Repulsing Seal
    3. Warding Seal
    4. Wall of Flame
    5. Searing Seal
    6. Spiritual Ally
    7. Shields for the Faithful
    8. Sigil of Ardent Faith (Minoletta‘s Piercing Sigil, Punishment, Condemnation)
    9. Incarnate

Effects:
    • +1 Engagement

 

Name: Feathered Monstrance

Description: This monstrance is made from colorful feathers and displays a central, opalescent tail feather of an unknown bird. Every time you look at it you feel uplifted.  

Contained spells/effects:
    10. Holy Power
    11. Holy Meditation
    12. Holy **** Dire Blessing
    13. Devotions for the Faithful
    14. Champion‘s Boon
    15. Salvation of Time
    16. Shields for the Faithful
    17. Crowns for the Faithful
    18. Soaring of Hylea (Light of Eoaths, but Swift for 30 secs instead of +50 health, Inspiration)

Effects:
    • +1 to Inspiration Power Level

Name: Finger of Death

Appearance: a skeletal finger
Description: A remnant of Lord Raedric VI, the thayn of Gilded Vale and devoted follower of Berath. During your rule in Caed Nua, a peasant brought you this piece of finger bone and insisted that it's the finger of Raedric who turned into a Deathguard after his death and was finally slewn. 
Contained spells:
    1. Death‘s Cold Grasp (PL1, Kalakoth‘s Sunless Grasp, keywords: Freeze, Punishment, Condemnation)
    2. -
    3. Necrotic Lance (PL 3, keywords: Acid, Punishment) 
    4. -
    5. Death Ring (PL 5, keywords: Acid, Punishment)
    6. -
    7. Touch of Death (PL 7, keywords: Punishment)
    8. -
    9. Cloak of Death (PL9, keywords: Punishment, Condemnation)
Effects:
    • Apparent Deathguard:- 5 CON, +5 RES
    • Champion of Berath: gives the wearer the passive ability "Come Sweet Winds of Death" (aura, 2.5 m radius, no phrase counting, no scaling)


Cogwheel

Appearance: a small cogwheel that fits in the palm of you hand
Description: Maybe this small cogwheel was once part of a marvelous machine, maybe it just was used as a pendant. It seems to be made from hardened steel and has seen some use: its surface is scrachted and a bit oily as well.  
Contained spells:
    1. Holy Power
    2. Spiritual Weapon Hammer (two handed war hammer, model: ogre_pirate_hammer, downscaled, crushing lash, scales up with stoic and honest, scales down with deceptive and clever)
        ◦ or one handed war hammer, model: war_hammer_u_resounding_call
    3. Desponent Blows
    4. Ballista (Mind Lance, keywords: punishment)
    5. Champion‘s Boon
    6. Burst of Sparks (Firebug, keywords: fire, punishment)
    7. Abydon‘s Forge (like Concelhaut‘s Crushing Doom, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
    8. Spark the Souls of the Righteous
    9. Call the Iron Arm (summon Steelclad Construct - cre_construct_steelclad)
Effects:
    • none

 

Conch Pendant

Appearance: a small-sized conch attached to a silver necklace.
Description: This conch was polished to a glossy finish. Althoug it‘s quite small you can hear mighty waves roaring inside of it – if you hold it really close to your ear. 
Contained spells:
    1. Suppress Affliction
    2. The Moon‘s Light (keywords: restoration)
    3. Watchful Presence
    4. High Tide (Overwhelming Wave, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
    5. Low Tide (Call to Slumber, keywords: condemnation)
    6. Minor Intercession
    7. Moonwell (PL 7, keywords: restoration, protection)
    8. Ngati‘s Vortex (PL 8, Pull of Eora, but 15-25 crush dmg per 3 sec, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
    9. Drowning (PL 9, like Temporal Cocoon, but 3 raw dmg per 1 sec, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
Effects:
    • none

 

Chew Bone

Appearance: a medium sized chew bons for a dog
Description: This chew bone looks like it has been used recently. There‘s saliva all over it and it smells like a rained upon dog. 
Contained spells:
    1. Holy Power
    2. Taste of the Hunt
    3. Merciless Pursuit (PL 3, like Merciless Gaze)
    4. Divine Terror
    5. Champion‘s Boon
    6. Call the Changeling (like Spiritual Ally, but summon model cre_spiritshift_wolf)
    7. Minor Avatar
    8. Lord of the Hunt (PL 8, like Citzal‘s Martial Power, but upgrades MIG, CON and DEX inspiration by one level, keywords: inspiration)
    9. Aspect of Galawain (like druid spell, keywords: protection)
Effects:
    • none
PoE remembrance:

 

Name: Cadegund‘s Powder Horn

Description: Not much is known about Cadegund, a battlefield Priestess of Magran. Her name is engraved on the side of this battle-worn powder horn which she used to reload her trusted arquebus with. Sometimes you hear a faint crackling sound from inside it. 

Contained spells:

    1. Inspired Flame (Lesser Burst of Summer Flame, less base dmg: 14-22, keywords: Fire, Punishment)
    2. Spiritual Weapon Arquebus (burning lash scales up with Aggressive/Clever and down with Passionate/Diplomatic dispositions; model: Arquebus_Superb)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Additional effects:
    • Magran‘s Drill: -20% reload speed with firearms

 

Sabhan‘s Rat Skull

Description: This skull of a rat is white and polished and has eyes made from blackstone. You have the impression that it squeaks in your backpack from time to time. Better to put it near you, that poor thing.

Contained spells:
    1. Insinuation of Rebellion (PL1, Whipers of Treason, Keywords: Condemnation)
    2. Spiritual Daggers (dual, corrosive lash scales up with Cruel/Deceptive and down with Aggressive/Benevolent; model: Dagger_CRE_Animat )
        ◦ OR Spiritual Shackles (weapon prof. flails, dual, same otherwise; model: Fail_U_Ball_and_Chain – if possible with removed ball)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects: 
    • Prey on the Weak (Lesser Sneak Attack: +10% dmg, scales up with Cruel/Deceptive and down with Aggressive/Benevolent)

 

The Golden Bulla

Description: A gilded and sealed bulla. There are ornamental suns all over its surface and no visible weatherin marks. No matter how hard you try you can‘t open it. Yet when you touch it, you feel encouraged.

Contained spells:
    1. Soothing Warmth (PL1, like Lesser Lay on item Hands_Healing_Hands but with PL scaling)
    2. Spiritual Morning Star (burning lash, scales up with Benevolent/Honest and down with Cruel/Deceptive; model: Morning_Star_Superb)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Hope Eternal: Resistance against Resolve afflictions 

 

Ivory Key

Description: A key made from the tusk of an unknown mammal. The head is carved into the form of a human skull. Once you hold it all those distracting emotions get damped down a bit.

Contains spells:
    1. The Pallid Hand (PL1, lesser Concelhaut‘s Corrosive Siphon, 5 base dmg instead of 8, keywords Acid, Punishment, Restoration)
    2. Spiritual Mace (corrosive lash, scales up with Stoic/Rational and down with Cruel/Passionate, only main hand; model: Mace_Exceptional)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Undying Gatekeeper: melee hits drain 10% of the damage dealt as health

 

Dried Ear of Grain

Description: Despite its fragile apprearance, this ear is surprisingly hard and resilient. It emits a soft warmth when you hold it in your hands.

Contains spells:
    1. Burning the Stubbles (PL1, lesser Torrent of Flame, foe-only!, 15-25 Burn damage, keywords: Fire, Punishment) 
    2. Spiritual War Scythe (weapon proficiency Pollaxe, burning lash, scales up with Benevolent/Honest and down with Cruel/Deceptive; model: Lord Darryn‘s Voulge)
        ◦ OR Spiritual Hayfork (weapon proficiency Pike, same otherwise; model: Lance of the Midwood Stag)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Bounteous Harvest: +1 spell use of spell level 1 per kill

 

Ice Shard

Description: An ice shard from the White March which radiates cold. It is said that it was taken from the Russetwood crater. Oddly enough, it doesn‘t melt - even under the hot sun of the Deadfire Archipelago. It‘s really convenient to put it near your food supplies…

Contained spells:
    1. Glacial Gust (Druid PL1, Winter Wind, keywords: Freeze, Punishment)
    2. Spiritual Battle Axe (two handed, freezing lash, scales up with Honest/Rational and down with Benevolent/Diplomatic; model: Amra or Oathbreaker‘s End)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -
Effects:
    • Enigmatic Cold: while afflicted, Freeze damage heals for 10% instead of dealing damage

The Executioner‘s Hood

Description: This torn and burned hood can‘t be worn anymore. But every time you touch it you feel a surge of righteousness. It helps you to make all those hard but just decisions.

Contained spells:
    1. Guillotine (PL1 like Blessed Harvest)
    2. Spiritual Executioner‘s Sword (Geat Sword, raw lash like Woedica‘s Spiritual Fists, scales same; modal: Great_Sword_CRE_Naga)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Coup de Grace: +20 health on kill

Glass Eye

Description: This doesn‘t look like the usual glass eye. Actually it looks like a real eye floating in a glass sphere together with some glitter. And you could swear it winks every time you look away.

Contained spells:
    1. Sparkling Glitter (PL1, Arkemyr‘s Dazzling Lights, keywords: Condemnation)
    2. Spiritual Quarterstaff (like Wael‘s Spiritual Rod, model: Quarterstaff_Superb_Fampyr)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Incomprehensible Revelation: gain the Smart inspiration for 10 secs every time you confuse an enemy 

  
 

And so on. Some of those were remembrances to PoE items, characters or abilities and bring back stuff from there (e.g. Skaens Baby Sneak Attack)

Edited September 22, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Small comment on Noqn table : Tier IX God spells are not unique spell for their deity, contrary to Symbols. Every priest can get them.

[Virtual_Swayy]

7 hours ago, Noqn said:

Memory Related Abilities

• Recall Agony

 

Definitely! I like your other ideas as well, but tRecall agony really fits into my notion of a "better" Priest. I'm like 100% positive that what I'm saying below is currently "beyond the scope of the mod" (LOL to say the least).  Sure would be nice though.....

 

-------TLDR; THREE MAIN POINTS/OVERALL THESIS OF THIS POST----------------

1) Make Priest more competitive by buffing their "second role" (i.e. NOT the healing/buffing role). Druids/Heralds excel at their non-healing role(s). I suggest several options for "damage adds" as a way to give Priests more competitive "second role" effectiveness.

2) Make Priest able to focus more on the "second role", as Druid/Herald are able to do, by giving them an Aura (like herald) and a long duration AoE "fire and forget" heal-buff "combo" (like druid).

3) Finally, buff Priest heals (specific spells/changes discussed below) by increasing base amount and/or radius, or increasing resto PL, or lowering spell AL, or adding secondary effects so when they do perform the healing roll they aren't just face-rolled by lifegiver druids.

If the specifics of any of that sounds interesting to you... read on! If not, that's what TLDR's are for LOL  

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------- PRIEST THOUGHTS/REACTIONS FROM A NEW DEADFIRE PLAYER THAT LOVED THE CLASS IN POE 1 (now? not so much) ------

Almost always ran one in POE 1 parties; mained one a couple of times, but now Priest seems kind of... Meh, to me (so far - I'd love to be wrong). I really like the idea of buffing up Priests in Deadfire. I am currently, and will be playing with a full party for at least a few more playthroughs, so it makes baby Jesus cry that Priest can't even get one of my five party slots (not even multi-classed). 

As far as what I think would change my mind on Priest (for my next playthrough; PotD w/ party.),  I particularly like the above ideas about 1) damage adds, but also wouldn't mind 2) better healing. Here are some thoughts on those two things.... Please take 'em with a grain of salt, most of my deep experience is with POE1 & I'm unfamiliar with modding, which is the basis of this thread. Most of my suggestions seem feasible, but I lack the knowledge to know with certainty if they are all possible to implement via modding (also, I'm guessing a lot of my reactions/thoughts on healing have been voiced before, by people who've played Deadfire way longer).

I really wish I'd played before 5.0 to say some of this then.. but i guess it's not too late thanks to you all that make mods, so props to you! Anyway, on the off-chance my ideas may be helpful, here is my 2 cents as a POE1 player new to Deadfire who is evaluating post 5.0 Priest (vs other classes) and what I think might resolve their shortcomings (at least for my playstyle)...

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------------ DAMAGE ADD THOUGHTS ----- TLDR; All deities get damage adds; 1 (Decent) AOE  & 1 (Uber/OP) Single Target  ---------------

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Healing/Buffing isn't the end all be all, so a character needs a "second role" (aka damage) to justify a spot in my party. Even if priest healing was equal to druid (it's not), damage is an area where druid really outstrips priest for me.  Priest damage add debuffs could balance out the "second role" druids excel at, without making priest just another nuker.

I could be drawn more to priests if, on top of their current kit, they received (all deities the same) a couple of good damage adds. I'd hope for at least: 1 Single Target... preferably a stackable(!), massive damage add (akin to Recall Agony/Entropy), with medium duration (could be un-resistable?) and... 1 AoE... preferably a stackable(!), moderate damage add, (akin to Inspired beacon), with long duration (preferably area targetable at range, not point blank self-radius), and obviously Foe only. {not sure how to link spells like you did @Noqn, so I typed out the effects of spells not linked above}

     - [Recall Agony]? Yes! I don't think it should be limited to Woedica. An AoE version of [Recall Agony] would be ideal, if non-existing spells can be used (created) via modding?

      - A {targetable} [Inspired Beacon] (Paladin 40% damage add; 1.5 radius from self; duration = 8 secs) seems similar mechanically to an {AoE} [Recall Agony] . If limited to existing spells maybe just give Priests the actual [Inspired Beacon]?

      - [Entropy] (Druid 100% hit to crit on enemy target; duration = fixed # hits) might be another possibility for a priest damage add using an existing spell

       - A {super-OP } utility debuff might work as well, or even better (than a damage add; or give 'em both lol). For example, something similar to [Entropy], but incoming hits get interrupt chance instead of crit conversion. For a made-up example, it could be {Entropic Interruption} (Hits on enemy target have X% chance to interrupt). I'm not sure if a spell like that currently exists, but essentially it would the barbarian passive "Interrupting Blows" in reverse (instead of buffing self with interrupt chance on outgoing hits, it would debuff enemy with interrupt chance on incoming hits) Some versions of this could be extremely OP (maybe too OP? ). But for kicks, consider two examples...

               1) Very OP: Make {Entropic Interruption} AoE, which could combo with any area damage over time ticks to completely shut down casting to an area for the duration, or...

               2) Retardedly OP: Make {Entropic Interruption} single target, but add [effect: strip interrupt immunity from target], if that effect is even possible for mods, I can only venture to guess as a Deadfire nublet, but wouldn't that elevate Priest to God-tier in mega boss fights? The OPness could be limited via short duration and or low interrupt chance.

       - [Combusting Wounds.] Question (for Magram Priest): How would that stack (or not) with a wiz in the party casting it? FIre spells seem cool, story-wise, but I think if it doesn't stack then Magram should get something else (in addition), even if not fire-based...

7 hours ago, Noqn said:

Fun Fire Spells idk?

[Soul Ignition]? (Cipher spell: 15 burn / 3 sec for 16 sec; 3/3 cast/recover; AL3) seems like it could be an option?

 

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------- HEALING THOUGHTS ----- TLDR; Facerolled by lifegiver druid; Increase Priest heal amounts/adjust PL&AL/add secondary buffs to heals------

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--------- EVALUATING PRIEST HEALS:--------------------

     - Consecrated Ground... Garbage.... I remember it being a really nice spell in PoE1. It seems insanely gimpy in Deadfire. Am I just romanticizing the past, or did they nerf it, because to me it seems like utter crap; like Moonwell had a baby with multiple severe birth defects.

     - Restore... Garbage... 30 base/1.5 radius. No thanks!

     - Eothas Line... Better, but should be lower Ability Level (So the base effects mod higher for single class priests & it's more multi-class priest friendly)

-----> FIX #1: Remedy imbalance in base heals: 1)straight-up buff healing base amounts, 2) increase radius on restore, 3) lower AL on Eothas line.

 

-----------THE DRUID COMPARISON (failed):--------------

I did actually TRY Priest as my first healer... NOT impressed... kicked out & replaced with a Lifegiver Druid that absolutely rocks the Casbah! It's not even close; my druid dominates my priest in healing (which really makes baby Jesus cry, hard), Better heals, PLUS crazy AoE damage, most Foe only, most ticks over time (super face-melty bc they all trigger combusting wounds), and storms stunning everything in sight... Seems hard to give all that up for better buffs/debuffs, when other classes give "good enough" buffs/debuffs.

     - Moonwell Comparison: Flat out better healing, nice radius, nice duration, PLUS a decent defense buff (in one cast!). Priest gets less casting twice; a slightly better defense buff, and a WAY worse heal (in a smaller area). Priest need a "fire and forget" spell like this they can lay down and then move into their secondary role.

     - Power level boost comparison: Lifegiver shapeshifting + (rejuvenation) items seem to blow out priest. Granted this might be fixed by (restoration) items I haven't found yet, but so far it seems like no contest.

------> FIX #2: Remedy imbalance in Resto/Rejuv PL: 1) lowering the priest heal ALs (in fix #1)  would functionally solve a portion of this without increasing PL directly, because the spells will benefit more from existing power level bonuses., but not enough to equal lifegiver so 2) Give a modal similar to shapeshifting (to healing spec deity only, comparable to speccing lifegiver) that boost resto PL for a short duration.

------> FIX #3(a): Remedy imbalance in Druid "fire and forget" (single-cast Moonwell): 1) give Priest at least one area "combo" heal spell [defensive buff(s) + HoT with ong duration] (so priest have a "fire and forget") For example, add something defensive to consecrated ground (which has buffed base heal amount from fix #1 above)  such as {+10 all defense} or {+2 armor}, or whatever (but not armor if choosing the armor option for fix 3(b) below, so they stack)

 

THE HERALD COMPARISON (failed):

This probably isn't as straight a comparison as the lifegiver, but ike druid, Herald has a "fire and forget", defensive "combo" option, but Herald doesn't even have to fire, It's just "forget" about it because the sh*t is automatic (and even longer duration than druid bc it lasts forever)! If automatic heals/buffs aren't enough, you have a super fast-cast direct heal (Greater Lay Hands: base over 3 secs 25% higher than Priest Restore; doubles Restore by 3rd tick) with a HoT/defensive "combo" on the back-end (Robust: 5 con/2 armor/10 health/3sec).

Also like Druid, Herald as a healer excels at its "second role" (and third role...and fourth role... such much so that healing is actually a tertiary role), which makes them super competitive for a healer spot in the party even if the heals aren't AS good. Herald heals are actually pretty good though... surprisingly good. The regen over time from exalted endurance/ancient memory is substantial. If so desired, you can spec into it even more with +healing items and/or the +healing passive. Also, it's a defensive "combo", because it gives + armor, which you can also spec further into via items (e.g., Shining Bulwark; adds another +1 armor).

------> FIX #3(b Remedy imbalance in Herald "fire and forget" (which is really automatic): 1) give Priest an always-on Aura which either: 2) gives a defensive "combo" of 3 sec regen ticks plus a defensive buff ([exalted endurance] would be ideal, especially if you added +10 defense to consecrated ground so the "fire and forget" spell's defense stacks with the aura's armor), OR... 3) Pulses a much larger heal, less often, without defensive buff.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Virtual_Swayy

[bell88]

Wow congratulations Eric Galad that's fantastic news! Hope all goes great! Cheers for your thoughts as well - I still reckon there are good reasons to give Xoti that Incarnate (will try justify below)

Thanks to everyone for the responses on this thread. I have to say - those trinkets look absolutely amazing @Boeroer - some really creative stuff in there! What would it take to make these? I'd be keen to get involved - I think it would be such a cool addition! Were you thinking of having one shared set of trinkets for druids/priests - that either class could equip? I think it could potentially be very nice to let druids use priest trinkets and vice versa. I've found the party size reduction from 6 -> 5 in Deadfire really quite rough in terms of 'party freedom' - and I think being able to give priests some druid abilities at will (and vice versa) could be quite a creative way of helping with that. 

As for modifying priest subclasses - these would be my suggestions. This is very much a first pass - I expect lots will need changing - but I'd love to get people's thoughts. I'd also love to know how hard it is for a new modder to do this seeing as it's likely Eric won't have time

BERATH (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Touch of Rot
• Necrotic Lance
• Infestation of Maggots
• Plague of Insects
• Death Ring
• Rot Skulls
• Disintegration
• Symbol of Berath
• Hand of Berath

MAGRAN (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Fan of Flames
• Combusting Wounds
• Fireball
• Wall of Fire
• Torrent of Flame
• Pillar of Holy Fire
• Storm of Holy Fire
• Symbol of Magran
• Magran's Might

RYMRGAND (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Touch of Rot
• Blizzard
• Spreading Plague
• Noxious Burst
• Blast of Frost
• Ninagauth's Frozen Pillar
• Entropy
• Symbol of Rymrgand
• Call of Rymrgand

SKAEN (3 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Barbs of Condemnation
• Escape
• Divine Mark
• Finishing Blow
• Shadowing Beyond
• Smoke Veil
• Minor Avatar
• Symbol of Skaen
• Skaen's Revenge

WAEL (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Arcane Veil
• Mirror Image
• Llengrath's Displaced Image
• Confusion
• Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment
• Gaze of the Adragon
• Arkemyr's Capricious Hex
• Symbol of Wael
• Blessing of Wael

EOTHAS (3 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Sunbeam
• Rejoice Comrades! Two Fingers of Daylight
• Glorious Beacon
• Shining Beacon
• Revive the Fallen
• Minor Intercession
• Sunlance
• Symbol of Eothas
• Light of Eothas

GAUN (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Blessed Harvest
• Withdraw
• Watchful Presence
• Wall of Thorns
• Garden of Life
• Venombloom
• Lashing Vine
• Symbol of Eothas
• Pollen Patch

WOEDICA (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Writ of Engagement
• Recall Agony
• Writ of Consumption
• Dominate Mind
• Writ of War
• Mind Plague
• Writ of Sorcery
• Symbol of Woedica (use Skaen as a placeholder) - not sure why this would be redundant with the writs as someone said? The writs don't do periodic foe-only damage
• Writ of Mending

(Note this is why I think Xoti should get an Incarnate - I'd put Lashing Vine down at PL7, giving her space to still get an Incarnate Summon at PL9)

Be interesting to see people's thoughts - and see what we converge to  I also think that we should consider only allowing priests access to the PL9 ability for their respective God. It would feel super weird seeing e.g. Magran priests suddenly casting Call of Rymrgand. So this means priests get two PL9 abilities - their Incarnate + their unique PL9 ability for their God. (Boeroer's trinkets would add more variety here).

Edited September 22, 2020 by bell88

[Boeroer]

Thank you.

I wouldn't allow other classes to use specific trinkets. Priest trinkets would be for Priests only etc. Those trinkets should work like grimoires basically - which successfully try to allow a broader spell portfolio for wizards. I don't want to blur the lines between classes further (like multiclasses and a bunch of Priest spells that are borrowed from Wizard/Druid without even changing the name already do). It's a class-based system after all. Blur the lines too much and one could as well play a classless system (what I would prefer anyway but this game it not made for that I guess). That's why I would really like to give those "borrowed" spells/abilities unique names and even icons if possible. Even change their mechanics a bit. Just so that the average player wouldn't even notice that it's "recycled" material.

 

[Elric Galad]

If one goes the route of increasing the number of non-priest spells among the free spells, I would tend to think that all subclasses should have 0 priest free spells (except possibly on Tier IX).

Woedica could be given Bigby Concelhaut crushing doom on Tier VIII (with a rename ?).

I don't know what to think about removing the deity Tier IX for other priests since priests wouldn't get many abilities on this tier. Barring "rival gods" spells could be a compromise.

[bell88]

@Boeroer Yeah I totally get what you mean about not wanting to blur class lines too much in a class-based system. I guess my view though is that it's fine to break that rule in the one case of Druids vs Priests. 

Worth noting that some of your trinkets definitely blur the line and I think this is great. For instance giving Priests access to the Moons Light and Moonwell suddenly gives them the opportunity to be very strong healers - something normally exclusively restricted to Druids in Deadfire. I definitely don't think we should make the classes totally redundant with each other - but I think there should be a lot of overlap. Take these subclasses that are not in the game as another example - its not clear to me there really is a difference between a 'Watershaper' and a 'Priest of Ondra'. Similarly, we'd expect some sort of 'Priest of Hylea' to have wind and storm spells. What about an 'Animist' and a 'Priest of Galawain'?

I'd love to get both your thoughts on this - and also what both of your suggestions for subclass spells could be. 

How do we move forwards with making some trinkets? I'd love to learn/help

Maybe we could just start with a small number (three or four) usable by either?

These two examples looked really compelling to me:

Amber Star

Description: The six-pointed star is carved from amber. Numerous small pieces of violet crystal are entrapped within it.

Contained spells/effects:

    1. Restore
    2. Light of the Dawnstars (The Moon‘s Light, Restoration)
    3. Consecrated Ground
    4. Aurora (Moonwell, Restoration, Protection)
    5. Rays of the Morning Sun (...And Evil turned away from the Sun, Restoration, Protection)
    6. Sunlance (Punishment)
    7. Storm of Holy Fire
    8. Hand of Weal and Woe
    9. Light of the Midday Sun (Light of Pure Zeal, Punishment, Restoration) 

Chew Bone

Description:  A medium sized chew bons for a dog. This chew bone looks like it has been used recently. There‘s saliva all over it and it smells like a rained upon dog. 

Contained spells/effects:

    1. Holy Power
    2. Taste of the Hunt
    3. Merciless Pursuit (PL 3, like Merciless Gaze)
    4. Divine Terror
    5. Champion‘s Boon
    6. Call the Changeling (like Spiritual Ally, but summon model cre_spiritshift_wolf)
    7. Minor Avatar
    8. Lord of the Hunt (PL 8, like Citzal‘s Martial Power, but upgrades MIG, CON and DEX inspiration by one level, keywords: inspiration)
    9. Aspect of Galawain (like druid spell, keywords: protection)

Edited September 26, 2020 by bell88

[Noqn]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:39 AM, Boeroer said:

found it:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Trinkets

Priest

Name: Dyrwoodan Prayerbook

Description: This small book contains some simple and catchy prayers and litanies that are known and used in most churches throughout the Dyrwood. One of the former owners has left several helpful annotations about proper intonation and cadence.

Contained spells:
    1. -
    2. Prayer for the Body
    3. Prayer for the Spirit
    4. Litany for the Body
    5. Litany for the Spirit
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Additional effects:
    • +1 PL with Inspiration spells

Name: Sermon of Punishment and Redemption

Description: Saint Rumbalt was among the first of the Eothasian pilgrims to take up the Emperor's offer of resettlement in the distant territory of Readceras. A dedicated priest of the Shining God, Rumbalt was regarded as a leader in his community, known both for his unwavering dedication to his congregation and his stern vigilance against lapses in doctrine. What survives of his sermons reflects this duality, for he emphasized the redemptive power of the faith even as he warned against the dire punishments awaiting those who rejected Eothas' beneficence.

Contained spells:
    1. Barbs of Condemnation
    2. Pillar of Faith
    3. Divine Mark
    4. Shining Beacon
    5. Searing Seal
    6. Pillar of Holy Fire
    7. Storm of Holy Fire
    8. Symbol of Eothas
    9. Light of Eothas

Effects:
    • +1 PL to all Punishment spells

 

Name: Building on Solid Foundations 

Description: This essay refers to the well known book „Daily Affirmations of Focus and Efficiency“  that is very popular among followers of Abydon. It describes certain excercises techniques that allow a priest to improve and refine some of their basic abilites.  

Contained spells/effects:
    1. Interdiction
    2. Inspiring Radiance (+10 ACC AoE buff)
    3. Empowered Interdiction (+10 ACC)
    4. Aggrandizing Radiance (+2 to stats)
    5. Painful Interdiction (weaken)
    6. Brilliant Radiance (burn damage)
    7. Intimidating Interdiction (frighten)
    8. Reviving Radiance (revive like Revive the Fallen, but AoE)
    9. Anathema (disoriented)

Effects:
    • none

 

Name: Amber Star

Description: The six-pointed star is carved from amber. Numerous small pieces of violet crystal are entrapped within it.

Contained spells/effects:
    1. Restore
    2. Light of the Dawnstars (The Moon‘s Light, Restoration)
    3. Consecrated Ground
    4. Aurora (Moonwell, Restoration, Protection)
    5. Rays of the Morning Sun (...And Evil turned away from the Sun, Restoration, Protection)
    6. Sunlance (Punishment)
    7. Storm of Holy Fire
    8. Hand of Weal and Woe
    9. Light of the Midday Sun (Light of Pure Zeal, Punishment, Restoration) 

Effects:
    • Favor of the Dawnstars: +10% healing done 

 

Name: Sentry Figurine

Description: This small figurine of an armor clad sentry is made of soapstone. A miniscule engraving on its back says „The guardian of our faith will let no heathen pass“.  

Contained spells/effects:
    1. Halt
    2. Repulsing Seal
    3. Warding Seal
    4. Wall of Flame
    5. Searing Seal
    6. Spiritual Ally
    7. Shields for the Faithful
    8. Sigil of Ardent Faith (Minoletta‘s Piercing Sigil, Punishment, Condemnation)
    9. Incarnate

Effects:
    • +1 Engagement

 

Name: Feathered Monstrance

Description: This monstrance is made from colorful feathers and displays a central, opalescent tail feather of an unknown bird. Every time you look at it you feel uplifted.  

Contained spells/effects:
    10. Holy Power
    11. Holy Meditation
    12. Holy **** Dire Blessing
    13. Devotions for the Faithful
    14. Champion‘s Boon
    15. Salvation of Time
    16. Shields for the Faithful
    17. Crowns for the Faithful
    18. Soaring of Hylea (Light of Eoaths, but Swift for 30 secs instead of +50 health, Inspiration)

Effects:
    • +1 to Inspiration Power Level

Name: Finger of Death

Appearance: a skeletal finger
Description: A remnant of Lord Raedric VI, the thayn of Gilded Vale and devoted follower of Berath. During your rule in Caed Nua, a peasant brought you this piece of finger bone and insisted that it's the finger of Raedric who turned into a Deathguard after his death and was finally slewn. 
Contained spells:
    1. Death‘s Cold Grasp (PL1, Kalakoth‘s Sunless Grasp, keywords: Freeze, Punishment, Condemnation)
    2. -
    3. Necrotic Lance (PL 3, keywords: Acid, Punishment) 
    4. -
    5. Death Ring (PL 5, keywords: Acid, Punishment)
    6. -
    7. Touch of Death (PL 7, keywords: Punishment)
    8. -
    9. Cloak of Death (PL9, keywords: Punishment, Condemnation)
Effects:
    • Apparent Deathguard:- 5 CON, +5 RES
    • Champion of Berath: gives the wearer the passive ability "Come Sweet Winds of Death" (aura, 2.5 m radius, no phrase counting, no scaling)


Cogwheel

Appearance: a small cogwheel that fits in the palm of you hand
Description: Maybe this small cogwheel was once part of a marvelous machine, maybe it just was used as a pendant. It seems to be made from hardened steel and has seen some use: its surface is scrachted and a bit oily as well.  
Contained spells:
    1. Holy Power
    2. Spiritual Weapon Hammer (two handed war hammer, model: ogre_pirate_hammer, downscaled, crushing lash, scales up with stoic and honest, scales down with deceptive and clever)
        ◦ or one handed war hammer, model: war_hammer_u_resounding_call
    3. Desponent Blows
    4. Ballista (Mind Lance, keywords: punishment)
    5. Champion‘s Boon
    6. Burst of Sparks (Firebug, keywords: fire, punishment)
    7. Abydon‘s Forge (like Concelhaut‘s Crushing Doom, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
    8. Spark the Souls of the Righteous
    9. Call the Iron Arm (summon Steelclad Construct - cre_construct_steelclad)
Effects:
    • none

 

Conch Pendant

Appearance: a small-sized conch attached to a silver necklace.
Description: This conch was polished to a glossy finish. Althoug it‘s quite small you can hear mighty waves roaring inside of it – if you hold it really close to your ear. 
Contained spells:
    1. Suppress Affliction
    2. The Moon‘s Light (keywords: restoration)
    3. Watchful Presence
    4. High Tide (Overwhelming Wave, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
    5. Low Tide (Call to Slumber, keywords: condemnation)
    6. Minor Intercession
    7. Moonwell (PL 7, keywords: restoration, protection)
    8. Ngati‘s Vortex (PL 8, Pull of Eora, but 15-25 crush dmg per 3 sec, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
    9. Drowning (PL 9, like Temporal Cocoon, but 3 raw dmg per 1 sec, keywords: punishment, condemnation)
Effects:
    • none

 

Chew Bone

Appearance: a medium sized chew bons for a dog
Description: This chew bone looks like it has been used recently. There‘s saliva all over it and it smells like a rained upon dog. 
Contained spells:
    1. Holy Power
    2. Taste of the Hunt
    3. Merciless Pursuit (PL 3, like Merciless Gaze)
    4. Divine Terror
    5. Champion‘s Boon
    6. Call the Changeling (like Spiritual Ally, but summon model cre_spiritshift_wolf)
    7. Minor Avatar
    8. Lord of the Hunt (PL 8, like Citzal‘s Martial Power, but upgrades MIG, CON and DEX inspiration by one level, keywords: inspiration)
    9. Aspect of Galawain (like druid spell, keywords: protection)
Effects:
    • none
PoE remembrance:

 

Name: Cadegund‘s Powder Horn

Description: Not much is known about Cadegund, a battlefield Priestess of Magran. Her name is engraved on the side of this battle-worn powder horn which she used to reload her trusted arquebus with. Sometimes you hear a faint crackling sound from inside it. 

Contained spells:

    1. Inspired Flame (Lesser Burst of Summer Flame, less base dmg: 14-22, keywords: Fire, Punishment)
    2. Spiritual Weapon Arquebus (burning lash scales up with Aggressive/Clever and down with Passionate/Diplomatic dispositions; model: Arquebus_Superb)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Additional effects:
    • Magran‘s Drill: -20% reload speed with firearms

 

Sabhan‘s Rat Skull

Description: This skull of a rat is white and polished and has eyes made from blackstone. You have the impression that it squeaks in your backpack from time to time. Better to put it near you, that poor thing.

Contained spells:
    1. Insinuation of Rebellion (PL1, Whipers of Treason, Keywords: Condemnation)
    2. Spiritual Daggers (dual, corrosive lash scales up with Cruel/Deceptive and down with Aggressive/Benevolent; model: Dagger_CRE_Animat )
        ◦ OR Spiritual Shackles (weapon prof. flails, dual, same otherwise; model: Fail_U_Ball_and_Chain – if possible with removed ball)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects: 
    • Prey on the Weak (Lesser Sneak Attack: +10% dmg, scales up with Cruel/Deceptive and down with Aggressive/Benevolent)

 

The Golden Bulla

Description: A gilded and sealed bulla. There are ornamental suns all over its surface and no visible weatherin marks. No matter how hard you try you can‘t open it. Yet when you touch it, you feel encouraged.

Contained spells:
    1. Soothing Warmth (PL1, like Lesser Lay on item Hands_Healing_Hands but with PL scaling)
    2. Spiritual Morning Star (burning lash, scales up with Benevolent/Honest and down with Cruel/Deceptive; model: Morning_Star_Superb)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Hope Eternal: Resistance against Resolve afflictions 

 

Ivory Key

Description: A key made from the tusk of an unknown mammal. The head is carved into the form of a human skull. Once you hold it all those distracting emotions get damped down a bit.

Contains spells:
    1. The Pallid Hand (PL1, lesser Concelhaut‘s Corrosive Siphon, 5 base dmg instead of 8, keywords Acid, Punishment, Restoration)
    2. Spiritual Mace (corrosive lash, scales up with Stoic/Rational and down with Cruel/Passionate, only main hand; model: Mace_Exceptional)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Undying Gatekeeper: melee hits drain 10% of the damage dealt as health

 

Dried Ear of Grain

Description: Despite its fragile apprearance, this ear is surprisingly hard and resilient. It emits a soft warmth when you hold it in your hands.

Contains spells:
    1. Burning the Stubbles (PL1, lesser Torrent of Flame, foe-only!, 15-25 Burn damage, keywords: Fire, Punishment) 
    2. Spiritual War Scythe (weapon proficiency Pollaxe, burning lash, scales up with Benevolent/Honest and down with Cruel/Deceptive; model: Lord Darryn‘s Voulge)
        ◦ OR Spiritual Hayfork (weapon proficiency Pike, same otherwise; model: Lance of the Midwood Stag)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Bounteous Harvest: +1 spell use of spell level 1 per kill

 

Ice Shard

Description: An ice shard from the White March which radiates cold. It is said that it was taken from the Russetwood crater. Oddly enough, it doesn‘t melt - even under the hot sun of the Deadfire Archipelago. It‘s really convenient to put it near your food supplies…

Contained spells:
    1. Glacial Gust (Druid PL1, Winter Wind, keywords: Freeze, Punishment)
    2. Spiritual Battle Axe (two handed, freezing lash, scales up with Honest/Rational and down with Benevolent/Diplomatic; model: Amra or Oathbreaker‘s End)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -
Effects:
    • Enigmatic Cold: while afflicted, Freeze damage heals for 10% instead of dealing damage

The Executioner‘s Hood

Description: This torn and burned hood can‘t be worn anymore. But every time you touch it you feel a surge of righteousness. It helps you to make all those hard but just decisions.

Contained spells:
    1. Guillotine (PL1 like Blessed Harvest)
    2. Spiritual Executioner‘s Sword (Geat Sword, raw lash like Woedica‘s Spiritual Fists, scales same; modal: Great_Sword_CRE_Naga)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Coup de Grace: +20 health on kill

Glass Eye

Description: This doesn‘t look like the usual glass eye. Actually it looks like a real eye floating in a glass sphere together with some glitter. And you could swear it winks every time you look away.

Contained spells:
    1. Sparkling Glitter (PL1, Arkemyr‘s Dazzling Lights, keywords: Condemnation)
    2. Spiritual Quarterstaff (like Wael‘s Spiritual Rod, model: Quarterstaff_Superb_Fampyr)
    3. -
    4. -
    5. -
    6. -
    7. -
    8. -
    9. -

Effects:
    • Incomprehensible Revelation: gain the Smart inspiration for 10 secs every time you confuse an enemy 

  
 

 

And so on. Some of those were remembrances to PoE items, characters or abilities and bring back stuff from there (e.g. Skaens Baby Sneak Attack)

Ooh, these are really cool concepts.

 

On 9/22/2020 at 9:52 AM, Elric Galad said:

Small comment on Noqn table : Tier IX God spells are not unique spell for their deity, contrary to Symbols. Every priest can get them.

Ops.

 

On 9/23/2020 at 10:39 AM, Elric Galad said:

If one goes the route of increasing the number of non-priest spells among the free spells, I would tend to think that all subclasses should have 0 priest free spells (except possibly on Tier IX).

I agree, that would be optimal.

 

On 9/23/2020 at 1:27 AM, bell88 said:

Be interesting to see people's thoughts - and see what we converge to  I also think that we should consider only allowing priests access to the PL9 ability for their respective God.

On 9/23/2020 at 10:39 AM, Elric Galad said:

I don't know what to think about removing the deity Tier IX for other priests since priests wouldn't get many abilities on this tier. Barring "rival gods" spells could be a compromise.

I'm personally very much in favor of limiting Lv9 diety spells one way or another. Another option would be to remove all foreign diety spells, but giving the priests access to fitting Lv9 spells from other classes. (e.g. Touch of Death for Berath)

 

On 9/23/2020 at 1:27 AM, bell88 said:

Symbol of Woedica - not sure why this would be redundant with the writs as someone said? The writs don't do periodic foe-only damage

Ah, you're right. I meant aesthetically with the whole placing a symbol, but yeah the effects are too different. How would you feel about taking inspiration from Garrote, giving periodic Paralyze + Raw damage?

 

On 9/23/2020 at 1:27 AM, bell88 said:

As for modifying priest subclasses - these would be my suggestions. This is very much a first pass - I expect lots will need changing - but I'd love to get people's thoughts.

Great picks!

I'll continue adding suggestions:

 

	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Berath
Lv1	Touch of Rot
Lv2	Holy Meditation	Necrotic Lance
Lv3	Spreading Plague	Infestation of Maggots	Spreading Plague
Lv4	Divine Terror	Plague of Insects
Lv5	Rot skulls	Death Ring	Rot skulls
Lv6	Salvation of Time	Rot Skulls	Death Ring
Lv7	Rusted Armor	Disintegration	Rusted Armor
Lv8	Symbol of Berath
Lv9	Hand of Berath

I like both Infestation of Maggots and Disintegration, but I think Spreading Plague and Rusted Armor already fits Berath really well and should be kept. (Disintegration feels more like a Rymrgand thing?) How about swapping Death Ring and Rot Skulls so that Rot Skulls have its vanilla position?

 

Eothas	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Sunbeam
Lv2	Withdraw	Two Fingers of Daylight
Lv3	Watchful Presence	Glorious Beacon
Lv4	Circle of Protection	Shining Beacon
Lv5	Revive the Fallen
Lv6	Minor Intercession		Garden of Life
Lv7	Resurrection	Sunlance
Lv8	Symbol of Eothas
Lv9	Light of Eothas

 

Eothas once again being a menace...

 

Gaun	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Blessed Harvest
Lv2	Withdraw		Autumn's Decay
Lv3	Vile Thorns	Watchful Presence	Vile Thorns
Lv4	Circle of Protection	Wall of Thorns
Lv5	Wicked Briars	Garden of Life	Wicked Briars
Lv6	Minor Intercession	Venombloom
Lv7	Wall of Thorns	Lashing Vine
Lv8	Symbol of Eothas
Lv9	Lashing Vine	Pollen Patch

 

Good call on moving down Wall of Thorns and Lashing Vine two levels, giving space for a Lv9 spell.
I'm suggesting keeping Wicked Briars instead of Garden of Life, which I think suits Eothas more.
Is there any reason for removing Vile Thorns?
I think Autumn of Decay fits with the theme of farming seasons.

 

Magran	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Fan of Flames
Lv2	Spiritual Weapon	Combusting Wounds
Lv3	Ray of Fire	Fireball	Ray of Fire
Lv4	Shining Beacon	Wall of Fire
Lv5	Flame Shield	Torrent of Flame	Flame Shield
Lv6	Pillar of Holy Fire		Torrent of Flame?
Lv7	Torrent of Flame	Storm of Holy Fire	Torrent of Flame?
Lv8	Symbol of Magran
Lv9	Magran’s Might

How about keeping Torrent of Flame at Lv7 or only moving it to Lv6, keeping space for Flame Shield?
I'd keep Ray of Fire over Fireball, because I like Beam spells.

 

Rymrgand	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Touch of Rot
Lv2	Blizzard
Lv3	Spreading Plague
Lv4	Noxious burst
Lv5	Blast of Frost
Lv6	Ninagauth’s Freezing Pillar
Lv7	Death Ring	Entropy
Lv8	Symbol of Rymrgand
Lv9	Call of Rymrgand

 

Entropy

*Chef's Kiss*

 

Skaen	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Barbs of Condemnation		Antipathetic Field
Lv2	Escape
Lv3	Divine Mark		Pain Link
Lv4	Finishing blow
Lv5	Shadowing Beyond
Lv6	Spiritual Ally	Smoke Veil
Lv7	Minor Avatar
Lv8	Symbol of Skaen
Lv9	Revenge of Skaen

 

Dunno if this is a good suggestion but how about Antipathetic Field or other hate-related Cipher spells?
It might be a stretch (and I actually think Pain Link is a better fit for Skaen) but going with that theme, maybe Arcane Dampener at Lv3?

Quote

Creates a nullifying field of antagonistic magical energy around the chosen point, suppressing all beneficial effects on enemies in the area of effect.

Minor Avatar fits the Skaen priest given the significance of the Effigy in lore, but it'd be nice to have a full set of unique spells.

Otherwise... Expose Vulnerabilities?

 

Wael	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Arcame Veil
Lv2	Ionic Projection	Mirrored Image
Lv3	Mirrored Image	Llengrath’s Displaced Image
Lv4	Llengrath’s Displaced Image	Confusion
Lv5	Confusion	Arkemyr’s Wondrous Torment
Lv6	Arkemyr’s Wondrous Torment	Gaze of the Adragan
Lv7	Gaze of the Adragan	Arkemyr’s Capricious Hex
Lv8	Symbol of Wael
Lv9	Blessing of Wael

 

Aah, beautiful solution.

 

Woedica	Vanilla	bell88	Noqn suggestion
Lv1	Writ of Engagement
Lv2	Spiritual Weapon	Recall Agony
Lv3	Writ of Consumption
Lv4	Divine Terror	Fealty
Lv5	Writ of War
Lv6	Pillars of Holy Fire	Mind Plague	Haunting Chains
Lv7	Writ of Sorcery
Lv8	Hand of Weal and Woe	Symbol of Woedica
Lv9	Writ of Mending

 

I'm falling in love with this table.
Small suggestion but how about Haunting Chains at Lv6? I'm thinking Mind Plague might be too weak for a Lv6 priest spell.

 

[thelee]

On 9/27/2020 at 8:10 AM, Noqn said:

I like both Infestation of Maggots and Disintegration, but I think Spreading Plague and Rusted Armor already fits Berath really well and should be kept. (Disintegration feels more like a Rymrgand thing?) How about swapping Death Ring and Rot Skulls so that Rot Skulls have its vanilla position?

I didn't think I'd have much of an opinion on this, but Berath's portfolio isn't *anything* death-related, it tends to be death in terms of stoic inevitability and cyclic death (the reps are rational and stoic), and prayers to Berath may be to merely delay the inevitable. While it's hard to express that exactly with spells, I feel like we lose a bit of flavor by getting rid of the stoic-seeming Holy Meditation and the delaying Salvation of Time. Adding Death Ring at the expense of either of them would make Berath more like Rymrgand (Vatnir gets Death Ring) and make Berath feel more "primal" and less reserved.

 

As for Wael's tweak - while I think Iconic Projection is kind of a weird choice in vanilla (but I mean Wael is inscrutable so who knows), I think bumping all the spells up and adding capricious hex would make Wael too good as a subclass, highlighting its strength as an add-in for glass cannon builds or being a glass cannon itself. Earlier access to Mirror Image, and earlier access to multiple casts of Mirror Image is very good. Uniquely, priests also get a pair of slippers that grants +1 to tier two spell casts, which would give Wael a huge boost if they get Mirror Image at tier two. Instead of moving all the spells up, I would instead recommend simply changing the tier two bonus spell. As an idea: "Bewildering Spectacle" seems like a subtle enough effect (with a very Wael-y name), though this might dilute the wizard too much. Maybe even just changing it to another priest spell? Not a lot of very compelling/in-theme picks at tier two though.

 

edit - Woedica's Fealty is a dominate ability, no? From a systems perspective I disagree with this choice. Ciphers are supposed to be the dominators, and letting priests do that dilutes the cipher too much IMO.

edit 2 - for similar systems reasons, I'm not wild about Smoke Veil for skaen. As it stands in vanilla, Skaen basically has 12 guile worth of rogue abilities. Smoke Veil would be another 4. At the level that it is proposed, it would also be accessible for multiclassing. I think it dilutes rogue too much. (And also excacerbates a rogue/skaen oddity - a single self-empower would restore an enormous amount of effective guile)

Edited September 30, 2020 by thelee

[dukeisaac]

All this talk is making me want to start ANOTHER playthrough (summoner chanter)... Damn you all !

[bell88]

Thanks so much for your comments @Noqn and @thelee

If you let me play devil's advocate for just a moment @thelee - I think its a bit too restrictive to say that 'Ciphers are the dominators' and that no other class whatsoever should have access to that. Agree that we don't want a 'Pathfinder situation' - where there is a great deal of bloat and redundancy/overlap, but surely its fine to give a single Priest subclass one dominate ability. I would agree that it would be wrong to add it to the core Priest spell tree for sure - but this is just one specific subclass of Priest. It also shares its level with 'Devotions for the Faithful' - meaning it has strong competition as far as the action economy/casts are concerned. Also worth noting Ciphers have plenty of other unique features - early access to charms, AOE dominates, brilliant inspiration etc. Just my thoughts. I am inclined to agree with you on Smoke Veil though in hindsight for Skaen.

I think we're going to find it tough to have six spells for each subclass none of which are in the core priest spell tree and maintain balance - so I think I'll make a new modified list allowing up to a maximum of two of those spells to come from the core Priest spell tree. I think maintaining some thematic value is more important than forcing each and every subclass to have exactly two core pries spells. Taking into account the above commentary, what about:

BERATH (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Touch of Rot
• Holy Meditation
• Spreading Plague
• Plague of Insects
• Rot Skulls
• Salvation of Time
• Rusted Armor
• Symbol of Berath
• Hand of Berath

MAGRAN (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Fan of Flames
• Combusting Wounds
• Ray of Fire
• Wall of Fire
• Flame Shield
• Pillar of Holy Fire
• Storm of Holy Fire
• Symbol of Magran
• Magran's Might

RYMRGAND (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Touch of Rot
• Blizzard
• Spreading Plague
• Blast of Frost
• Death Ring
• Disintegration
• Entropy
• Symbol of Rymrgand
• Call of Rymrgand

SKAEN (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Antipathetic Field
• Escape
• Pain Link
• Finishing Blow
• Shadowing Beyond
• Spiritual Ally
• Minor Avatar
• Symbol of Skaen
• Skaen's Revenge

WAEL (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Arcane Veil
• Bewildering Spectacle
• Mirror Image
• Llengrath's Displaced Image
• Confusion
• Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment
• Arkemyr's Capricious Hex (I really think this makes more sense than Gaze of the Adragon for Wael)
• Symbol of Wael
• Blessing of Wael

EOTHAS (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Sunbeam
• Light of the Dawnstars (equivalent to the 'Moon's Light')
• Rejoice Comrades! Two Fingers of Daylight
• Sunwell (equivalent to 'Moonwell')
• Revive the Fallen
• Minor Intercession
• Sunlance
• Symbol of Eothas
• Light of Eothas

GAUN (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Blessed Harvest
• Autum's Decay
• Vile Thorns
• Wall of Thorns
• Garden of Life (I prefer this to Wicked Briars as this life from death seems to really suit Gaun)
• Venombloom
• Lashing Vine
• Symbol of Eothas
• Pollen Patch

WOEDICA (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Writ of Engagement
• Recall Agony
• Writ of Consumption
• Dominate Mind
• Writ of War
• Haunting Chains
• Writ of Sorcery
• Symbol of Woedica (use Skaen as a placeholder) 
• Writ of Mending

OR (If we really don't want dominates,  1 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Writ of Engagement
• Whispers of Treason
• Writ of Consumption
• Divine Terror
• Writ of War
• Haunting Chains
• Writ of Sorcery
• Symbol of Woedica (use Skaen as a placeholder) 
• Writ of Mending

I don't know how to do that cool coloured formatting - so maybe @Noqn could show me?  

Edited October 1, 2020 by bell88

[thelee]

I think these revised spell selections are pretty OK (and my thumbs-up to the no-dominate, charm-version of woedica). My only concern is that putting Garden of Life at tier five for Gaun is maybe too good. Garden of Life is a really powerful spell and Gaun is already imo a decent subclass. (I already weight towards Xoti over Vatnir as a priest/backup priest a lot in my parties, and I'd basically never take Vatnir if Xoti got garden of life at tier five. Heck picking a druid would be a hard choice.)

 

edit - haunting chains is too good at tier six imo. just becuuse wizards get a stupidly good terror effect at tier five doesn't mean we should move all other terrify effects up :). if you wanted to keep it in the priest bonus spell tree, i think making it inaccessible to multiclassing is best, but i can also get that you want a symbol spell for all the subclasses. (i think haunting chains at tier eight would actually be pretty good level, and woedica already loses an incarnate at tier nine so it's not a big deal to me that they don't get a symbol. the writs and a top-notch spiritual weapon are what they get instead of symbols and incarnate)

Edited October 2, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

Wow
Such Garden
Very Gaun

=> Maybe Wicked Briar Tier V and Garden of Life Tier VI.

Remember that Haunting Chain is buffed to 40s in my mod if you plan to use it. That's very Tier IX.

In general comparing Spell Tier between "normal" spellcasters is legit. Between Cipher and other spell casters, it is already tedious cause the ressource system is quite different, but I would say that they are similar level of powers. BUT Cipher has an edge on single target crowd control and even single target DPS (but that's the point of priest subclass to provide edges priests aren't suppose to have...).

For Chanters, it's a whole different story. Invocation are superior on equivalent Tiers. Summons are crazy strong (though they have an opportunity cost : only 1 summon spell per chanter), offensive spells are usually super convenient and even damaging for their level. You also get a Triple Party Tier I Inspiration on Tier VI-VII (Each Kill, Set to Their Purpose) instead of VIII (Crown).
2 Fingers of daylight clearly isn't the most powerful Invocation, but still this immunity to Resolve Afflictions could be very convenient, especially when coupled with Brilliant. And instant 60 heal on a given party member if you aim right isn't bad either. I would say it is okay on your list but I just wanted to add a bit of my "theory" in case you would like to change the lists again.

[Noqn]

13 hours ago, bell88 said:

I don't know how to do that cool coloured formatting - so maybe @Noqn could show me?  

I was actually confused how some other users could do this, until I realized that you can copypaste cells from LibreOffice Calc / Excel

Here's the sheet I used: Priest Spells 2.ods

On 9/30/2020 at 5:45 PM, thelee said:

I didn't think I'd have much of an opinion on this, but Berath's portfolio isn't *anything* death-related, it tends to be death in terms of stoic inevitability and cyclic death (the reps are rational and stoic), and prayers to Berath may be to merely delay the inevitable. While it's hard to express that exactly with spells, I feel like we lose a bit of flavor by getting rid of the stoic-seeming Holy Meditation and the delaying Salvation of Time. Adding Death Ring at the expense of either of them would make Berath more like Rymrgand (Vatnir gets Death Ring) and make Berath feel more "primal" and less reserved.

Berath is inconsistent on those points. A Servant of Death is explicitly about killing people who've overstayed their welcome, and I don't think Salvation of Time is appropriate in that context.

Besides, the original table is certainly Death-themed: Touch of Rot, Rot Skulls, Spreading Plague (two of which actually are already shared with Rymrgand.) @bell88 also suggested changing Death Ring in Vatnir's table to Entropy, so that in particular would not cause an overlap.

On 9/30/2020 at 5:45 PM, thelee said:

As for Wael's tweak - while I think Iconic Projection is kind of a weird choice in vanilla (but I mean Wael is inscrutable so who knows), I think bumping all the spells up and adding capricious hex would make Wael too good as a subclass [...]

As an idea: "Bewildering Spectacle" seems like a subtle enough effect (with a very Wael-y name), though this might dilute the wizard too much. Maybe even just changing it to another priest spell? Not a lot of very compelling/in-theme picks at tier two though.

That's fair, I was originally thinking Miasma of Dull-Mindedness for Tier II, but that might be too strong? Besides Miasma and Bewildering Spectable, I would also nominate Curse of Blackened Sight and Phanton Foes.

13 hours ago, bell88 said:

Arkemyr's Capricious Hex (I really think this makes more sense than Gaze of the Adragon for Wael)

Yeah, that makes sense.

On 9/30/2020 at 5:45 PM, thelee said:

edit - Woedica's Fealty is a dominate ability, no? From a systems perspective I disagree with this choice. Ciphers are supposed to be the dominators, and letting priests do that dilutes the cipher too much IMO.

In terms of identity, I see nothing wrong with extending Domination to a single subclass, especially one it suits so well. Note that it's A) available later than Puppet Master, B) has far more limited casts than Puppet Master, C) wastly overshadowed by Ringleader and D) has to compete in the same tier as Devotions for the Faithful, among others. It doesn't exactly steal Ciphers' spotlight.

I have to disagree on downgrading to Whispers of Treason btw, that's more fitting Skaen.

12 hours ago, bell88 said:

GAUN 

Tier V: Garden of Life (I prefer this to Wicked Briars as this life from death seems to really suit Gaun)

Gaun is more of the death aspect of Eothas though? I think Garden of Life might represent the wrong part of the reincarnation cycle.

12 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Remember that Haunting Chain is buffed to 40s in my mod if you plan to use it. That's very Tier IX.

8 hours ago, thelee said:

edit - haunting chains is too good at tier six imo

Would it be fine with a lower duration? I don't think single-target Terrify itself is too strong, it has to compete with Spiritual Ally and Salvation of Time after all.

8 hours ago, thelee said:

(i think haunting chains at tier eight would actually be pretty good level, and woedica already loses an incarnate at tier nine so it's not a big deal to me that they don't get a symbol. the writs and a top-notch spiritual weapon are what they get instead of symbols and incarnate)

I used to think so too, but now I want Symbol of AoE Garrote Force Choke.

51 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

2 Fingers of daylight clearly isn't the most powerful Invocation, but still this immunity to Resolve Afflictions could be very convenient, especially when coupled with Brilliant. And instant 60 heal on a given party member if you aim right isn't bad either. I would say it is okay on your list but I just wanted to add a bit of my "theory" in case you would like to change the lists again.

That's a good point, Two Fingers probably should be move up some tiers on Eothas.

[bell88]

Thanks all - this is great  I think we're gradually converging on something that I think we can broadly all agree on!

So the latest set of priest subclass skills is then:

BERATH (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Touch of Rot
• Holy Meditation
• Spreading Plague
• Plague of Insects
• Rot Skulls
• Salvation of Time (@Noqn - if you're unhappy with this one, what would you consider a good alternative? This choice is growing on me for Berath)
• Rusted Armor
• Symbol of Berath
• Hand of Berath

MAGRAN (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Fan of Flames
• Combusting Wounds
• Ray of Fire
• Wall of Fire
• Flame Shield
• Pillar of Holy Fire
• Storm of Holy Fire
• Symbol of Magran
• Magran's Might

RYMRGAND (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)  (This is now a really strong offensive spread which hopefully makes Rymrgand competitive to you compared to Gaun @thelee)

• Touch of Rot
• Blizzard
• Spreading Plague
• Blast of Frost
• Death Ring
• Disintegration
• Entropy
• Symbol of Rymrgand
• Call of Rymrgand

SKAEN (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Antipathetic Field
• Escape
• Pain Link
• Finishing Blow
• Shadowing Beyond
• Spiritual Ally
• Minor Avatar
• Symbol of Skaen
• Skaen's Revenge

WAEL (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Arcane Veil
• Bewildering Spectacle
• Mirror Image
• Llengrath's Displaced Image
• Confusion
• Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment
• Arkemyr's Capricious Hex (Given Wael's penchant for eyes - I could actually be convinced to go back to Gaze of the Adragon, both are strong choices)
• Symbol of Wael
• Blessing of Wael

EOTHAS (2 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Sunbeam
• Light of the Dawnstar (the Moon's light)
• Sunwell (Moonwell)  - Do we think Moonwell is too strong at PL3? I've just swapped the PL3 and PL4 choices around?
• Rejoice Comrades! Two Fingers of Daylight
• Revive the Fallen
• Minor Intercession
• Sunlance
• Symbol of Eothas
• Light of Eothas

GAUN (0 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Blessed Harvest
• Autum's Decay
• Vile Thorns
• Wall of Thorns
• Wicked Briars
• Garden of Life  - @Noqn - I think this does fit the Gaun aspect. The point is there's still killing/reaping that's been done - those reaped souls now heal the living. 
• Lashing Vine
• Symbol of Eothas
• Pollen Patch

WOEDICA (1 Standard Priest spells in Lv 1-7)

• Writ of Engagement
• Recall Agony
• Writ of Consumption
• Divine Terror
• Writ of War
• Fealty (Dominate Mind)
• Writ of Sorcery
• Symbol of Woedica (use Skaen as a placeholder - this should become perhaps an AOE Garrotte - but is that too strong?) 
• Writ of Mending

@thelee I think I'm inclined to agree with @Noqn that its fine for one specific priest subclass to get access to a single target dominate. As we've argued, ciphers have many other unique features (infinite resources, brilliant, AOE dominate, early access to charms, etc. etc). It would be good to get the thoughts of others on this so we can break the 'tie-break' so to speak  @Boeroer @Elric Galad

Here is a compromise for Woedica's list above ^. I've got rid of Haunting Chains (agree its too powerful at PL6). Instead I've put dominate at PL6 (so Woedicans get it much much later this way than Ciphers). We can also play around with that - we could switch its position with one of the other Writs for example.

Once we've agreed on this - we can try and implement a first version. I will need some guidance with this I'm afraid

I am quite pro only giving priests access to their deity's abilities at PL9. All of them will now have two active abilities at PL9 (their unique ability + incarnate). I will add the Eothas Incarnate to Gaun. What I think we should do to account for this is come up with a single PL9 passive ability for each subclass representing their deity. These are PL9 so should be rather powerful - I'd love for people to give some suggestions on what those could be.

Finally @Boeroer - on trinkets, I think its important that we design the trinkets with the subclass lists in mind. Do you have any rules of thumb for when its OK to allow a priest trinket to include druid (and other class) spells and vice-versa? I think its important for flavour that these exist but as you mentioned there are implications for class balance/overlap. Are you still set on different trinkets for priests and druids?

[@Elric Galad do you think if we manage to build this altogether that you might consider including it as one of the packages in your awesome mod?]

Edited October 4, 2020 by bell88

[Elric Galad]

Berath : not much changes and Plague of Insects is a little out of Berath version of death, but not much more that Speading Plague (but better than other alternative I guess)

Overall it's okay. Berath's Symbol and Incarnate are great.

 

Magran : I like the replacement by Combusting wounds, great utility.

Too much flame overall. Offensive priest already have a weak spot vs fire immune...

I would argue that Iron Skin would be better than another Flame Wall on Tier IV. Magran is also about Iron and Weapons and this would help diversfying what she provides.
For the same reason, I would go with Minoletta's Precise Bursting on Tier VII. It's close enough enough from a Goddess of War spirit and would provide at least 1 non-fire based offensive spell.

 

Ryrmgrand : I can't say I'm a big fan of replacing Corrode based Noxious burst by another Ice spell. This one is a bit unecessary and focus the subclass too much toward Ice.

But otherwise I like it. Sidekicks need unique advantages.

 

Skaen : makes sense thematically and not so much power creep

 

Wael : makes sense thematically and not so much power creep

 

Eothas : good. Makes him a better healer (and fire damager) without providing too much added utility. Eothas has arguably the best symbol and Incarnate, so buffing him too much could have been a prblem.

But Moonwell on Tier III is a big NO. Too strong. It's already very strong on Tier IV for druids. Watchful presence was okay.

 

Gaun : Okay for Garden. This spell IS Gaun in a nutshell.

Vile Thorn being Druid Tier I and Autumn Decay being Druid Tier II, I would swap them in your list (Vile Thorn on Tier II and Autumns' Decay on Tier III)

Good improvement overall. Companions need unique advantages.

 

Woedica : Fealty would be okay on Tier IV, I think. Still higher than Tier III from Cipher. Tier VI is a bit too high. Or it should be improved compared to Cipher's Version (that would also scale more with PL).

Pillars of Fire on Tier VI didn't make much sense anyway. Maybe Ring Leader on Tier VI and no Puppetmaster ?
I can't say I'm a big fan of adding a Symbol to Woedica. It contributes to the subclass uniqueness that it doesn't have a symbol (but other unique spells to balance it).



About including it in my own mod : I feel that I have to test myself all that I provide just to make sure it works. And honnestly, I have done my share of testing (Unbending and all those freaking summons), so I think it's better as a separate mod. Also consider if I suddenly disappear from the Internet for a time  (I'm not refferring to anybody specifically...), you won't be able to update your content.
But what I can do is adding a link to your mod in my mod description.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Elric Galad

[bell88]

Hey - understood on Eothas (moon)well, will sort that out. I also really like your suggestions for Magran having some non-fire picks. 

Quick question @Elric Galadand others. What do people think on the topic of Rymrgand getting access to Fire spells (and I guess also Magran ice - but somewhat to a lesser degree)?

On some level it feels like Rymrgand priests should lose all fire keyworded spells - but this seems potentially very harsh...

Edited October 13, 2020 by bell88

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, bell88 said:

Quick question @Elric Galadand others. What do people think on the topic of Rymrgand getting access to Fire spells (and I guess also Magran ice - but somewhat to a lesser degree)?

On some level it feels like Rymrgand priests should lose all fire keyworded spells - but this seems potentially very harsh...

Well, Rymrgand is not that much into that Ice vs Fire thingy. He's the god of slow destruction. Fire isn't "his stuff", but it is still about destruction after all so it's not clearly opposed to his beliefs. I think Rymrgand could be less pleased by healing spells than fire spells. Now preventing access to a whole specialty is a huge blow to the subclass balance. It can't be done without adding many more potential ability picks. I think it's not a very good idea (or you need to make much more changes, but I don't think it was your initial idea).