Is Forbidden Fist Monk any good? How to build/play one?

[mangamancer]

What race, stats, abilities, second class, Items to pick? Or is this subclass worth choosing in the first place?

If there are many builds/playstyles, a good from the early game-melee-dps one is preferred.

[Boeroer]

Forbidden Fist is my preferred Monk class. To me it's absolutely awesome.

However, it kind of forces you to play with high RES (if you want to be effective). The higher the better. Combined with items/food etc. that shorten hostile effects. 

Because besides Dance of Death, Mortification of the Soul and the late passives like Parting Sorrow and Imagined Pain you only gain wounds when hostile effects expire. And the shorter those effects the better. Hence high RES etc.

With high RES and stacked buffs that reduce hostile effect duration your Forbidden Fist curse usually lasts < 3 secs no matter your INT. Also you can use Clarity of Agony to end hostile effects and shorten incoming ones tremendously.  

The Forbidden Fist ability is just great because of the Enfeeblement it causes and the damage it does. I usually don't use any other offensive stuff until Whispers of the Wind. Since it's implemented like a spell (it still uses your unarmed stats and scaling) you can even use it when you are using another weapon. So you alsways have a crush damage backup without using a second weapon slot. 

Everything that puts an hostile effect on you can be turned into a wound generator. Look at Hylea's Talons. The duration of the DoT it applies to you becomes extremely short and when it expires you get a wound. 

The mechanic enables you to play a very tanky monk without starving for wounds. 

There are even tricks like stepping into Tanglefoot to get wounds. One guy made a Berserker/Forbidden Fist and wore the Footsteps of the Beast so he could hobble himself all the time with lots and lots of short-lived drop traps of frost --> tons of wounds. 

For focus on the early game you shouldn't raise MIG too high because the self damage of the curse can be very punishing without the right gear. So better keep the self damage down a little by not adding too much MIG. 

High PER (helps best in the early game) and max RES, normal DEX (don't be too fast with the cursed punches or else you kill yourself) and INT. Not too low CON because of the curse. 

I would pick a small shield in the early game. Later Tuotilo's Palm is great. Also pick Mortification of the Soul because in the early game you can experience a shortage of wounds.

Good combos are anything where you can exploit the Enfeeblement of the Forbidden Fist: for example Cipher/Forbidden Fist with a Morning Star (note that Forbidden Fist ability doesn't generate focus without the Community Patch mod): apply enfeebled and Body Blows and then cast Disintegrate --> Disintegrate is most likely to hit or even crit and lasts 50% longer (100% on crit). Also Charm and Dominate will last a lot longer. 

It pairs very well with Trickster as Shadowdancer. Use Mirrored Images + Riposte and also Repulsive Visage etc. 50% longer Toxic Strikes are devastating - same as 50% longer Arterial Strikes.

Forbidden Fist/Bloodmage can also be very good, but maybe only after a few levels. 

I think for the early game a Forbidden Fist/Trickster, a Forbidden Fist/Beguiler (no need to cause dmg to gain focus) or Forbidden Fist/Steel Garotte (superprolonged  Garotte ability) may be most fun. Everything that's front loaded with good abilities right from the start. 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Boeroer
Spoor???

[Haplok]

Yeah, I also like it the most out of the monk subclasses. As long as you are able to tolerate being a little stingy with special abilities (but your "free" one is very good indeed) and max Resolve, its great!

For a build I'd recommend a variant of Frykas' Shadowdrugon - simply use Forbidden Fist subclass and max Resolve. Race: Wild Orlan (for Resolve affliction resist).

Some resulting skill modifications:

PL1: Monk: Swift Strikes(!); Rogue: Crippling Strike(S), Escape(!), Fast Runner(S)
PL2: Monk: Clarity Of Agony (S); Rogue: Blinding Strike (!), Dirty Fighting (!); Mutual: Two Weapon Syle (!)
PL3: Monk: Swift Flurry(!), Stunning Blow(!); Rogue: Confounding Blind(!), Riposte(!)
PL4: Monk: Duality of Mortal Presence(!), Thunderous Blows(!), Rooting Pain(S), Crucible of Suffering (S); Rogue: Persistent Distraction(!), Withering Strike(! - pick later, before Toxic)
PL5: Monk: Stunning Surge(!); Rogue: Deep Wounds (S); Mutual: Uncanny Luck (S - mainly if you use Community Patch)
PL6: Monk: Turning Wheel(!), Parting Sorrow(!), Flagellant's Path(S); Rogue: Toxic Strike(!); Mutual: Improved Critical(S - mainly if you use Community Patch and skip either Crucible of Suffering or Rooting Pain)
PL7: Monk: Heartbeat Drumming(!); Rogue: Deathblows(!)

As for equipment, I actually used the rapier with modal offhand (eventually Seeker's Fang - although I needed a mod to use it offhand), other arm (Magran's Favor axe and sabers mostly - eventually Scordeo's Edge) main hand. That's because the Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming bonus attacks use the main hand weapon regardless of the source of crit. Having highest crit rate in main hand would result in possible longer bonus hit chains, but top scimitars/Magran's Favor was doing almost twice the damage per hit and chains still happened.

Also I've used a few pieces of other equipment:

Helm: Helm of The White Void
Neck: Claim/Refusal
Torso: Devil of Caroc Breastplate (with regenerate on crit)
Ring: Ring of Prosperity's Fortune
Feet: Boots of Speed
Cape: Cloak of Greater Protection (though Giftbearer would be better if you focus history)
Trinket: Kazuwari's Call (for boss fights)
Gloves: Hylea's Talons (! - nice stream of bonus wounds and it actually ends restoring more health then it takes away)
Ring: eventually Whispers from the Depths or Ring of Clenched Muscle from Forgotten Sanctum
Belt: Sash of Judgement
Pet: Pes and Eder with Nalvi. If your Eder can't have a pet, I suppose Abraham might be better. Eventually you may get Blinky from Forgotten Sanctum.

 

Also try to always use Mohora Wraps when resting.

 

That's what I've been playing lately and its a pretty great meatgrinder.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Haplok

[mangamancer]

FF also gain a wound when Barb's Frenzy expired right? Is it a good Idea to pair FF with Barb?

Any other class that can also cast hostile effect on oneself early on?

If a Corpse Eater/FF eat a corpse will he gain 3 types of resources, Rages, mortifications & wounds?

[Zera Strife]

Used this build to beat the game on POTD solo. Love it, shout out to Powerotti.

 

 

[Boeroer]

I don't think that Frenzy gives wounds (because of the -10 deflection?). Maybe Berserker Frenzy, but I never tried because Frenzy's self damage + Forbidden Fist Curse self damage sounds too masochistic to me. Also a Berserker Frenzy is a way better wound generator for monks with normal wound generation (Nalpasca, Helwalker, vanilla).

A Druid/Forbidden Fist can step into his own Tanglefoot and get short-lived hobbled. Later Wall of Thorns maybe. A Wood Elf Wizard/Forbidden Fist could use Binding Web to immobilize enemies but only get hobbled himself - stuff like that (see Chillfog etc.). A blunderbuss with Powder Burns can be used distract yourself. With high RES the distraction is quite short.

[dgray62]

I like the idea of the forbidden fist variant of Shadowdrugon, Haplok. Thanks for sharing this. I was wondering however why you didn't take Dance of Death and Enduring Dance. Wouldn't the bonus accuracy and wounds be helpful, especially for a forbidden fist? Also, given the relatively low starting intelligence (before you get DoMP), my low level MC using this build burns through mortifications very quickly, and as for guile, there are many demands on this limited resource as well. How do you manage them in a typical non-boss fight? For longer boss fights, do you self-empower or rely on a cipher companion with ancestral memory?

[Haplok]

Well, its a typical frontline character and enemy backline charger. I don't see a scenario where he doesn't get hit. Although Repulsive Visage helps a lot and if he uses Tuotilo's Palm with Shield Style he can be decently tanky, I tried it (trying to maximize Ripostes and provoke Disengagement Attacks, even had Tumbling and Graceful Retreat at one point) and I vastly prefer the "in-your-face" aggressive approach with offhand rapier with modal to generate a torrent of extra hits. Repulsive Visage does make this much easier.

As for resource management, Stunning Surge is quite the game changer. As you crit very often (and should focus squishy targets first), the cost gets refunded and you can spam it. Plus Forbidden Fist is free (with no curse instances accrued), of course, and very often worth using. Guile I mostly spend on buffs (Mirror Image and Repulsive Visage mostly), the occasional Escape (although can be also used defensively for the huge Deflection bonus). I only use Confounding Blind and Toxic Strike on really tough cookies and/or bullet sponges. And Crippling Strike is also used conservatively - mostly when I'm left with lots of Guile but Mortification is nearly empty (or if I have issues with Penetration - but usually I don't).

And yeah, in longer fights I use Empower to recover resources (very rarely, other characters usually run out of resources much faster). When the fight is longer and the enemy defenses very high, you simply rely on autoattacks more - they are still very potent (even more so when Scordeo's Edge Blade Cascade triggers...) and can cause extra hits with the critical conversions. Don't have a cipher in my party. Although I've only killed one megaboss so far (Sigilmaster). Will see if I don't want/need a cipher for the rest.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Haplok

[mangamancer]

Is there a way  to make Monk's Fist enjoyed the ACC bonus from 1 handed weapon style?

[Boeroer]

Nope, it's impossible to "single-wield" fists.  You have the following options for the offhand (weapon-->bonus-->fitting passive):

• nothing (but in case of fist in main hand it always counts as fist, too) --> dual wielding (30% speed bonus) --> two weapon style (15%)
• melee weapon --> dual wielding --> two weapon style
• ranged weapon --> dual wielding --> two weapon style
• shield --> weapon & shield (nothing special besides shield bonuses) --> weapon & shield style (bonus deflection & reflex)
• bashing shield --> dual wielding & weapo & shield --> two weapon style + weapon & shield style

The only "fist" that can profit from one handed usage (+12 ACC) and One Weapon Style (15% crit conversion) is Concelhaut's Draining Touch.  I'm only half joking because you can use it as a Sage to great effect (especially with Swift Flurry since it targets Will instead of deflection and Will can be lowered easily via Miasma and Dazzling Lights - and you can stack crit chance with Merciless Gaze). If you don't learn the spell at level-up but instead cast in from a grimoire, then switch to a grimoure that doesn't have the spell before hitting somebody... then the Draining Touch will stay with you for the whole fight.  If you summon an Essential Phantom it will also have that weapon and it will stay forever (I mean until the phantom disappears). 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

Thanks for the advice, Haplok. I just started this forbidden fist/trickster character over the weekend, and have reached level 7. So far I am very impressed. This character, on PotD with Eder and three custom companions, was one of my easiest runs through Port Maje Island; Gorecci Street and the ruins did not pose a problem. The build is very tanky, especially once I reached level 4 and got Clarity of Agony and Mirrored Image. The former makes the FF curse last so little time that it heals for more than it harms, and the latter really helps converting incoming crits and hits to grazes and misses. But I do get hit regularly, although usually for not much damage, so I can see that even enduring dance would be a waste of ability points and mortifications. FF is a great free ability, particularly for a shadowdancer. Whenever I'm able to land the enfeebled afflication, the victim literally only has seconds to live before going down under a flurry of sneak attacks.

As I play on a MAC I can't mod the game, unfortunately, so I think I'll go get Rännig's Wrath to wield offhand ASAP, with the best sabre or axe in the main hand. I do have a cipher beguiler companion, who will make good use of Seeker's Fang.

[dgray62]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

The only "fist" that can profit from one handed usage (+12 ACC) and One Weapon Style (15% crit conversion) is Concelhaut's Draining Touch.  I'm only half joking because you can use it as a Sage to great effect (especially with Swift Flurry since it targets Will instead of deflection and Will can be lowered easily via Miasma and Dazzling Lights - and you can stack crit chance with Merciless Gaze). If you don't learn the spell at level-up but instead cast in from a grimoire, then switch to a grimoure that doesn't have the spell before hitting somebody... then the Draining Touch will stay with you for the whole fight.  If you summon an Essential Phantom it will also have that weapon and it will stay forever (I mean until the phantom disappears). 

I second Boeroer's suggestion. A sage using Concelhaut's Draining Touch is a great deal of fun, and does tremendous damage, since I believe that Concelhaut's Draining Touch has the largest possible base damage of any weapon. It heals you as it damages and weakens your foes, and you can get it relatively early, by level 7 as a multiclass. Another plus of this spell is it can't be suppressed by arcane dampener (unlike Citzal's Spirit Lance) since it has no duration. Just make sure you go to the island south of Port Maje ASAP, where you can find the blood soaked grimoire, enabling you to cast the spell as soon as you hit PL 3.

[Sharidin]

Hey! I've been on a chronic restart syndrome with Deadfire due to the fact I wanna play POTD upscaled but the game design is really bad in several areas compared to the first and you can't enjoy a lot of class builds, really. But lately I've found the solution to my problem with the Forbidden Fist. My current run is a Steel Garrote Paladin multiclass tank/striker.

Dump INT, keep CON low, max RES/MIG/PER, DEX is OK at the middle. Make a Nature Godlike to push fist damage high, equip resolve enhancing neck/boots/cloak/rings, get Hylea's Talons bracers and some +armor belt. Tuotilo's Palm (wound=deflection upgrade) and some decent armor (Devil's, Monk's, or the one with -X% action speed with Athletics).

Make AI to use Forbidden Fist every ~3 seconds, Lay on Hands when low, Exalted Endurance, Turning Wheel, Thunderous Blows and Torments with enough wounds. Tidy up house, water plants, feed dogs, watch series, chat on discord, spend time with significant other so they don't complain about video games taking up your time together. Hel, even go to the gym.

Come back after a while and see any fight you started finished with at least only your main character standing over the corpses, start another fight, AFK... You get it.

EDIT - Oh, it looks a lot like the Hand of Doom build posted earlier. Doesn't even need the Community Patch though, I'm not using it, it's a lot of fun!

Edited September 1, 2020 by Sharidin

[Tomucci]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:40 PM, Boeroer said:

Forbidden Fist/Bloodmage can also be very good, but maybe only after a few levels. 

Bit late to the party but could you please elaborate on why forbidden fist / blood mage is good? I'd really like to play it because I hate not choosing a sub class but vanilla monk looks a lot better to me, what am I missing?

[Boeroer]

Forbidden Fist wants high Resolve in order to keept the duration of any hostile effects extremely short. RES also contributes to deflection which the Wizard has an enormous potential for. And since stacking defenses gives increasing returns this is a nice synergy already. Use Tuotilo's Palm and you'll be tanky as hell. And if you mostly use Forbidden Fist attacks or other primary attacks (Force of Anguish, Torment's Reach, Skyward Kick) you won't lose any dps from the use of the shield but still get get dual wielding recovery speed. 

Then Sages are very potent in general. Mostly because the combination of either AoE weapon such as Spirit Lance + Stunning Surge, Efficient Anguish etc. is very good, but also because Wall of Draining prolongs all buffs on you, including Swift Flurry, Thunderous Blows, Clarity of Agony (great for a Forbidden Fist), Crucicle of Suffering (also great for a forbidden fist) and whatnot. 

Also the Wizard has some spells which have friendly fire - which usually are bad to step into, but as Forbidden Fist can give you wounds and healing galore. For example be resistant to DEX affclictions (like from being a wood elf or wearng an item with DEX resistance) and step into your own Binding Webs. You will get hobbled for very short amount of times and every time a hobble wears off you will get healing and a wound. 

Finally the Forbidden Fist attack enfeebles, which causes +50% duration of hostile effects on the enemy. This includes stuff like Fetid Caress (very strong single target disable in combination with Turning Wheel's +10 INT, which is +30% duration, and enfeebling with +50%). Add some power levels and land a crit - and the enemy might be paralyzed for over half a minute. 

[Tomucci]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Forbidden Fist wants high Resolve in order to keept the duration of any hostile effects extremely short. RES also contributes to deflection which the Wizard has an enormous potential for. And since stacking defenses gives increasing returns this is a nice synergy already. Use Tuotilo's Palm and you'll be tanky as hell. And if you mostly use Forbidden Fist attacks or other primary attacks (Force of Anguish, Torment's Reach, Skyward Kick) you won't lose any dps from the use of the shield but still get get dual wielding recovery speed. 

Then Sages are very potent in general. Mostly because the combination of either AoE weapon such as Spirit Lance + Stunning Surge, Efficient Anguish etc. is very good, but also because Wall of Draining prolongs all buffs on you, including Swift Flurry, Thunderous Blows, Clarity of Agony (great for a Forbidden Fist), Crucicle of Suffering (also great for a forbidden fist) and whatnot. 

Also the Wizard has some spells which have friendly fire - which usually are bad to step into, but as Forbidden Fist can give you wounds and healing galore. For example be resistant to DEX affclictions (like from being a wood elf or wearng an item with DEX resistance) and step into your own Binding Webs. You will get hobbled for very short amount of times and every time a hobble wears off you will get healing and a wound. 

Finally the Forbidden Fist attack enfeebles, which causes +50% duration of hostile effects on the enemy. This includes stuff like Fetid Caress (very strong single target disable in combination with Turning Wheel's +10 INT, which is +30% duration, and enfeebling with +50%). Add some power levels and land a crit - and the enemy might be paralyzed for over half a minute. 

Awesome thanks for the response