3rd person?

[Rafaelan]

On 7/29/2020 at 9:05 AM, Achilles said:

There seems to be an industry-wide shift away from 3rd person. Not sure why that is.

I don't think that is true. In fact most of the best reviewed games have been in 3rd Person. I don't think that is coincidence.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Rafaelan said:

I don't think that is true. In fact most of the best reviewed games have been in 3rd Person. I don't think that is coincidence.

I'm not sure what reviews have to do with it, but Obsidian's last big release was 1st person only. CDPR's next big game, arguably the most anticipated game of the year, is controversially 1st person only. Bloodlines 2 will be 1st person only.

Regardless of how those games have been or will be reviewed, it sure does seem like RPG makers are favoring 1st person lately.

[kanisatha]

12 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I'm not sure what reviews have to do with it, but Obsidian's last big release was 1st person only. CDPR's next big game, arguably the most anticipated game of the year, is controversially 1st person only. Bloodlines 2 will be 1st person only.

Regardless of how those games have been or will be reviewed, it sure does seem like RPG makers are favoring 1st person lately.

I have to agree, though for me it is a very ominous and disheartening trend.

I wonder if it is because developers are nowadays coming under tremendous pressure to provide every imaginable customization option under the sun based on every single personal identity detail people consider to be important to them. So for the developer, either they ensure their game includes every single one of those literally dozens, perhaps even hundreds, of options, or else have no options at all, because to have some options but not others will surely bring down on them an avalanche of outrage and discrimination accusations. And since they can never have enough options to fully satisfy everyone, they've decided to go with no customization options at all (i.e. first person, where you don't ever get to see your own character in the game). I have zero information or evidence one way or the other on this; I'm just thinking out loud.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I have to agree, though for me it is a very ominous and disheartening trend.

I wonder if it is because developers are nowadays coming under tremendous pressure to provide every imaginable customization option under the sun based on every single personal identity detail people consider to be important to them. So for the developer, either they ensure their game includes every single one of those literally dozens, perhaps even hundreds, of options, or else have no options at all, because to have some options but not others will surely bring down on them an avalanche of outrage and discrimination accusations. And since they can never have enough options to fully satisfy everyone, they've decided to go with no customization options at all (i.e. first person, where you don't ever get to see your own character in the game). I have zero information or evidence one way or the other on this; I'm just thinking out loud.

Everything you said here plus it's cheaper

[Wormerine]

On the other side, I don't recall a game which had both First and Third Person and didn't play awful. And thinking of Thief1&2, Systemshock1&2, Deus Ex - FPS immersive/RPG sim aren't new. I would definitely get either dedicated FP or TP rather then half-ass both. Luckily for me, I am fine with either.

[kanisatha]

3 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

On the other side, I don't recall a game which had both First and Third Person and didn't play awful.

But again, isn't this subjective? I already mentioned Skyrim as a game (with both perspectives) where I found the TP perspective to be quite fine. And by that I mean that for me it did not at all come across as half-assed. I had many problems with that game, but TP gameplay was definitely not one of them.

[Undecaf]

21 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

What bothers me is wasting time and money on character customization when there doesn't need to be one.  

Depends. They might (should?) give the characters looks a gameplay function. Size and ”beauty” and shape (athletic, chubby...) can be used to create large anounts of in-game reactivity and functionality.

Synergize that with an actually broad and comprehensive skill system and you might have something that actually pushes the genre forward in some respects.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Undecaf

[Wormerine]

11 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

But again, isn't this subjective? I already mentioned Skyrim as a game (with both perspectives) where I found the TP perspective to be quite fine. And by that I mean that for me it did not at all come across as half-assed. I had many problems with that game, but TP gameplay was definitely not one of them.

So you are telling me, that objectively, Skyrim/Bloodlines/or-whatever-other-game have a high quality Third Person gameplay? I am not disputing that you, or anyone else complaining, would enjoy Avowed/Cyberpunk better if it had TPCamera, but I will claim that games that design their system around specific perspective work better. 

Dark Souls wouldn't be as good if it needed to accomodate FPCamera. Deus Ex,Thief wouldn't be as good if they needed to make exploration work with TPc. Set top-down camera in RPG works better, then Dragon Age: Origins, which switched between TP and top down camera doing well neither. 

As a side note, I tend to prefer my melee combat to be in TP, and shooters in FP.

[ComradeYellow]

5 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Sure. But again you are missing my point. I was not saying character customization *is* Obsidian's brand. I was offering my own subjective example of something I value to highlight that my subjective thing is no different than someone else's subjective thing. The things some other people are claiming *should* be in the game are all subjective personal preferences too. When did Obsidian say first person is part of their brand? Or "solid mechanics"? Or "charm"? These are all subjective wants, and one subjective want is no better than any other.

Allow me to be more specific:

What separates Obsidian from Bethesda or Bioware games, usually, is that they have a certain design that's more appealing to me, because they chew out a lot of fat/fluff that I don't like from those studios and focus more on things I do like.  This is a major relief to me because I've grown massively disillusioned with a large slice of the gaming community lately so studios like From Software and Obsidian are actually the only reason I still consider myself a gamer.

[Rafaelan]

4 hours ago, Achilles said:

I'm not sure what reviews have to do with it, but Obsidian's last big release was 1st person only. CDPR's next big game, arguably the most anticipated game of the year, is controversially 1st person only. Bloodlines 2 will be 1st person only.

Regardless of how those games have been or will be reviewed, it sure does seem like RPG makers are favoring 1st person lately.

Most of big releases in 2019/1st half 2020 have been 3rd person games?

Gears 5, Sekiro, Days Gone, DMC5, Fallen Order, Monster Hunter, Death Stranding, Greedfall, Ghost Recon, Control, Last of Us 2, Ghost of Tsushima

As for best reviewed, agree to disagree I guess, but most of the best games (God of War, HZD, Mass Effect, Witcher 3, Last of Us, Bloodborne, Uncharted, GTA5) have been 3rd person

[Rafaelan]

38 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

As a side note, I tend to prefer my melee combat to be in TP, and shooters in FP.

I agree, melee combat in 1st person just isn't nearly as satisfying as it is in 3rd person 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Rafaelan said:

Most of big releases in 2019/1st half 2020 have been 3rd person games?

Gears 5, Sekiro, Days Gone, DMC5, Fallen Order, Monster Hunter, Death Stranding, Greedfall, Ghost Recon, Control, Last of Us 2, Ghost of Tsushima

I'm only familiar with one of the games on that list. Which of these are RPGs?

Regarding reviews; it's not an "agree to disagree" proposition. Either the industry is moving that way or it's not. Which games reviewed well before that trend started or how games that aren't part of the genre review well in the future really doesn't matter. Reviews, literally, have nothing to do with the new standard that RPG makers seem to be setting.

[kanisatha]

58 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

So you are telling me, that objectively, Skyrim/Bloodlines/or-whatever-other-game have a high quality Third Person gameplay? I am not disputing that you, or anyone else complaining, would enjoy Avowed/Cyberpunk better if it had TPCamera, but I will claim that games that design their system around specific perspective work better.

No, I'm specifically saying these are all subjective claims (including my own).

1 hour ago, Wormerine said:

As a side note, I tend to prefer my melee combat to be in TP, and shooters in FP.

This may be the case with me as well. And since I don't play shooters at all ....

28 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

What separates Obsidian from Bethesda or Bioware games, usually, is that they have a certain design that's more appealing to me, because they chew out a lot of fat/fluff that I don't like from those studios and focus more on things I do like.  This is a major relief to me because I've grown massively disillusioned with a large slice of the gaming community lately so studios like From Software and Obsidian are actually the only reason I still consider myself a gamer.

Fair enough, and this is true for me too. I have extremely narrow and specific tastes in my video games and as such keep going back to the same very small circle of studios whose games I like. And Obsidian is at the top of my list of studios whose games I love. Yet my list of design factors that appeal to me and your list don't necessarily match exactly (though they probably have quite a bit in common), and neither of our lists is an objective list.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, kanisatha said:

1 hour ago, Wormerine said:

As a side note, I tend to prefer my melee combat to be in TP, and shooters in FP.

This may be the case with me as well. And since I don't play shooters at all ....

Not going to lie, I really liked being able to switch back and forth in Skryim.

Melee is much more satisfying in 3rd person. Archery and stealth are much more satisfying in 1st

[morhilane]

8 hours ago, Achilles said:

I'm not sure what reviews have to do with it, but Obsidian's last big release was 1st person only. CDPR's next big game, arguably the most anticipated game of the year, is controversially 1st person only. Bloodlines 2 will be 1st person only.

Regardless of how those games have been or will be reviewed, it sure does seem like RPG makers are favoring 1st person lately.

They aren't favoring anything. There was always 1st person RPGs releasing. The real trend is that a few JRPGs, indies, Assassin's Creed Valhalla and Biomutants aren't on gamers's radars, but these games are despite being 1st person and from "niche origins" (Bloodlines 1/VTM and Cyberpunk 2020. I doubt 1% of the people hyping Cyberpunk 2077 up even know about the pnp, which is a problem because the setting is not for everyone...and going by the trailers, they really nailed it).

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, morhilane said:

They aren't favoring anything. There was always 1st person RPGs releasing. The real trend is that a few JRPGs, indies, Assassin's Creed Valhalla and Biomutants aren't on gamers's radars, but these games are despite being 1st person and from "niche origins" (Bloodlines 1/VTM and Cyberpunk 2020. I doubt 1% of the people hyping Cyberpunk 2077 up even know about the pnp, which is a problem because the setting is not for everyone...and going by the trailers, they really nailed it).

Entirely possible. Hence why I've been careful to say "seems".

[Ormag]

13 hours ago, Rafaelan said:

Most of big releases in 2019/1st half 2020 have been 3rd person games?

Gears 5, Sekiro, Days Gone, DMC5, Fallen Order, Monster Hunter, Death Stranding, Greedfall, Ghost Recon, Control, Last of Us 2, Ghost of Tsushima

As for best reviewed, agree to disagree I guess, but most of the best games (God of War, HZD, Mass Effect, Witcher 3, Last of Us, Bloodborne, Uncharted, GTA5) have been 3rd person

You and Achilles clearly have wildly different understanding of RPGs

since he named 2 big (actual) RPGs people are looking forward to, and you just named a bunch of random games regardless of the genre 

[Rafaelan]

9 hours ago, Ormag said:

You and Achilles clearly have wildly different understanding of RPGs

since he named 2 big (actual) RPGs people are looking forward to, and you just named a bunch of random games regardless of the genre 

Yeah, 2 different conversations getting intertwined, some are RPG, some ARPG, but I consider them the same. Is AC Valhalla an RPG? In the truest sense, maybe not, but you have abilities, customization of gear, branching decisions etc..

I certainly would put Greedfall as an RPG. Games like Sekiro, Ghost of Tsushima, Jedi Fallen Order more ARPG IMO

[Wormerine]

48 minutes ago, Rafaelan said:

Yeah, 2 different conversations getting intertwined, some are RPG, some ARPG, but I consider them the same. Is AC Valhalla an RPG? In the truest sense, maybe not, but you have abilities, customization of gear, branching decisions etc..

I certainly would put Greedfall as an RPG. Games like Sekiro, Ghost of Tsushima, Jedi Fallen Order more ARPG IMO

Well, most of those (aside from Greedfall) I would call straight up action games. Progression is so widespread as a mechanic I don't think it qualifies as an RPG mechanic anymore, especially if it doens't really allow for customisation. From what I understand recent ACs have some RPG mechanics, though they seem to be used to create mostly artificial grind, rather then having a gameplay justification. Didn't play any of them, but that's what seems to be mentioned most of the time. 

[Didn't play any of those actually, so my opinion is informed only by what I have seen in reviews and might be inaccurate]

[morhilane]

4 hours ago, Wormerine said:

Well, most of those (aside from Greedfall) I would call straight up action games. Progression is so widespread as a mechanic I don't think it qualifies as an RPG mechanic anymore, especially if it doens't really allow for customisation. From what I understand recent ACs have some RPG mechanics, though they seem to be used to create mostly artificial grind, rather then having a gameplay justification. Didn't play any of them, but that's what seems to be mentioned most of the time. 

[Didn't play any of those actually, so my opinion is informed only by what I have seen in reviews and might be inaccurate]

AC Odyssey and soon AC Valhalla are RPGs as much as The Witcher 3 is a RPG. Odyssey just doesn't have the writing quality of The Witcher 3.

Surprisingly, Jedi Fallen Order has a few dialogue choices (binary) to express how you feel about certain events in the game, but it's more of a Tomb Raider clone.

 

[keriana]

I saw this article today: Avowed Likely Playable In First & Third-Person Like The Elder Scrolls Games. Hopefully it will be! 

[Wormerine]

44 minutes ago, keriana said:

I saw this article today: Avowed Likely Playable In First & Third-Person Like The Elder Scrolls Games. Hopefully it will be! 

Could be, or could be one of any of the other projects Obsidian is currently working on. Perhaps Grounded is getting expanded team after successful launch  

[Adridactelo]

I mean, in animation the third person can be used for creatures, enemies and NPCs.

The Combat Designer job description is much more relevant:

Quote

Obsidian Entertainment is looking for a Combat Designer with proven experience developing first-person melee combat gameplay to join our team of talented developers.

This role will work closely with artists, animators, audio, and gameplay programmers to determine the overall flow, look, and feel of the total combat experience. The ideal candidate will be someone who can collaboratively plan and create fun, visceral, and epic combat including the main character, AI characters, and gameplay objects across varied encounter types.

Responsibilities:

• Identify and document gameplay systems and tech required to create fun combat with an emphasis on an exceptional first-person melee experience.
• Collaborate with the animation and audio teams to determine the overall feel and pace of combat actions utilizing both first and third person animations.
• Work with system designers to integrate character and gear statistics into combat in a rewarding way.

 

[morhilane]

1 hour ago, keriana said:

I saw this article today: Avowed Likely Playable In First & Third-Person Like The Elder Scrolls Games. Hopefully it will be! 

The intro to that job request "experience creating ranged combat for first-person games". I wouldn't be getting my hope up if I were you.

The 3rd person is most probably for enemies as "exceptional skills animating humanoids and creatures" is a requirement and the responsibilities are for creating combat animations for characters and creatures.

[keriana]

27 minutes ago, morhilane said:

I wouldn't be getting my hope up if I were you.

Too late! You never know. They could include both. I am going to be an optimist on this.