How good is Single Class Rogue ?

[ekt0]

First of all, I have tried google for this information and I do not find any relevant answers. There were some information from year 2018, which I think it should be outdated by now. So, here I come again with this question.

The reason I ask this question because I had tried playing as a single class rogue with my main character for many times and I usually found it too weak, especially in early game when your sneak is quite low. However, perhaps, I had played the class in the wrong way all the time. So, any insight and criticism is welcome.

To keep the discussion concise and in scope, I would like to set up some backgrounds. 

• You play this class as your main character, along side with other story companions. No tavern companion creation is allowed.
• The difficulty is Path of the Damn with level scaling in all areas.
• Your party are able to take most fights head on, especially the early hard ones. The only exception allowed is Gorrecci street fight.
• No Berath's Blessing

About how to determine how good the single class rogue is, any measurement is welcome. For me, I would prefer the ranking system. What rank the single class rogue is when compared to other single classes.

Edited May 19, 2020 by ekt0
add more conditions

[Boeroer]

The only reasons to go Single Class Rogue are Vanishing Strikes and Gambit. And maybe Kalakoth's Freezing Rake for Trickster.

Vanishing Strikes because its invisibility will not break(!). This means as long as it lasts you can do free Backstabs (and Assassinations as Assassin). Its base duration is rahter short, but you can prolong it with lots of stuff: Salvation of Time, Ooblit pet, lots of INT, items and food which prolong benefical effects and so on. So basically you will dish out lots of damage while being untouchable. It's quite expensive though so you can't spam it. That's where Gambit comes in:

Gambit will refund its Guile cost if you crit. It's a Full Attack so it's best to use two weapons for having the chance to crit twice. If you even use a weapon with multi-projectile or multihit attacks like Sun & Moon or Hand mortars then it's rel. easy to do a lot of Gambit attacks because you will have a lot of chances for refunds. Gambit also gets a damage bonus based on the Guile you have left. Funnily enough Gambit refunds Guile "internally" when you crit while using it but will cap the refund to 4 afterwards. But while your Guile climbs up internally so does the dmg bonus. I had mortar shots with Gambit gettng over +200% dmg (just from Gambit alone) because I shot at a lot of weak enemies with an invisible Assassin (because I activated Vanishing Strikes before).

The other PL8/9 abilites of Rogues are meh in my opinion and I would say that most Rogues are better off as multiclass for over 75% of the game. 

Here's an example of a lvl 20 SC Assassin with the setup I mentioned above (he kills the dummies really fast. Those have a ton of HP) :

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Sorry, had to edit my post above heavily because of formatting nonsense with the spoiler/img tags. Now it should work properly.

[2MuchWatching]

I played single class Trickster Rogue through to mid-late game with the regular companions. A few levels in it becomes quite strong, once you are able to cast some useful spells. The sneak attack scales so damage is good. The issue I had with Trickster was spending too much Guile on non-offensive abilities and some redundancy between MC and Aloth, who I usually like to take along in wizard role.

My preferred playstyle in melee role is more suited to barb/fighter/monk but single class trickster offers decent damage, crowd control and has some tricks to help survivability.  I ended up playing it a bit like a wizard with sneak attack.

[Elric Galad]

Salvation of Time does not work with Vanishing Strike cause it has to be applied After the effect and with Vanishing Strikes you're immune to everythibg including AoE beneficial effects. EDIT : but apart for this Boeroer's post is good advice.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Ah right. Forgot about that little detail.

[ekt0]

Thank you everyone for your insight and information.

Apparently, a single class rogue is a popular topic around here.

Personally, I think a single class rogue is weak compared to other single classes. Perhaps, the lowest one, I am not sure.

[Raven Darkholme]

You can't judge a single class by their earlygame, singleclass is all about PL 8 and 9.

[Boeroer]

8 minutes ago, ekt0 said:

Thank you everyone for your insight and information.

Apparently, a single class rogue is a popular topic around here.

Personally, I think a single class rogue is weak compared to other single classes. Perhaps, the lowest one, I am not sure.

You obviously didn't watch the animated gif I included. I don't know a lot of builds that can kill off a bunch of dummies that quickly (besides empowered Missile Salvos, Greater Maelstroms and such). An SC Rogue, properly build, is very good at high levels. But you have to reach those first. 

SC Rogue isn't particulary great before reaching the highest levels - although the higher Sneak Attack and Power Level scaling work in their favor.

Here's a video of @Kaylon as SC Rogue killing the Beast of Winter solo with spamming Gambit (using Rust's Poignard and Scordeo's Edge) quite quickly:

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[ekt0]

12 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

You obviously didn't watch the animated gif I included. An SC Rogue, properly build, is very good at high levels. But you have to reach those first. 

SC Rogue isn't particulary great before reaching the highest levels - although the higher Sneak Attack and Power Level scaling work in their favor.

Here's a video of Kaylon killing the Beast of Winter solo with Gambit and Rust's Poignard very quickly:

I have watched it Boeroer, but I still think the same. Perhaps, I might not understand it well enough. I will watch the new video you provide later.

Edited May 19, 2020 by ekt0

[Boeroer]

Hm... that's like saying "I have watched people fly through the windshield because they didn't use the safety belt, but I still think it's better to never put it on".

However, for the earlier parts of the game I agree that the SC Rogue isn't super appealing. 

[ekt0]

The SC rogue in the new video seems quite strong and legit.

What would you rank SC rogue among other single classes then Boeroer.

[AeonsLegend]

How much different is this when comparing it to shadow dancer though, you should be able to use the Confounding Blind attack to much of the same effect I think. You're going to get +12 accuracy, +5 might and +2 pen and a fire lash from monk to offset the loss in damage. Plus you're a lot more mobile and can kill things quicker imo.

[Haplok]

32 minutes ago, Raven Darkholme said:

You can't judge a single class by their earlygame, singleclass is all about PL 8 and 9.

By PL 8 and 9 the game is nearly over, so judging anything by that is simply wrong IMO.

Well, I guess you can have some fun in the DLCs at least.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

13 minutes ago, ekt0 said:

What would you rank SC rogue among other single classes then Boeroer.

I don't think there is a definitve fixed ranking. It depends so much on the player. The Vanishing-Strike/Gambit mortar Streetfighter or Assassin are not last for me though. 
But generally I put Rogues rel. low on my personal list of favorite classes. 

9 minutes ago, AeonsLegend said:

How much different is this when comparing it to shadow dancer though, you should be able to use the Confounding Blind attack to much of the same effect I think. You're going to get +12 accuracy, +5 might and +2 pen and a fire lash from monk to offset the loss in damage. Plus you're a lot more mobile and can kill things quicker imo.

As Assassin you will have +15 ACC and +4 PEN while Vanishing Strike is up. Also +50% crit damage and all Backstabs. As Streetfighter with mortars you will have -50% reload time and +50% Sneak Attack while adding Backstabs. But the best thing is basically that you are untargetable (and stun via Ajamuut's Stalking Cloak). Shadowdancer also does a lot of damage, maybe comparable. Marauder, too. I'm just saying that SC Rogue is good with Vanishing Strikes and/or Gambit - not that it's top of the pops.  

[Boeroer]

11 minutes ago, Haplok said:

By PL 8 and 9 the game is nearly over, so judging anything by that is simply wrong IMO.

Well, I guess you can have some fun in the DLCs at least.

When I reach lvl 20 (and you get access to PL8 long before) there's more than 30% left.

Last time I played an SC character was Tekehu as SC Stormspeaker - and when he got Avenging Storm for his dual mortars I think there was something like more than 40% left (at least felt like it - measured in game time. Including DLCs of course). Gambit is also PL8 so that should be similar. 

Besides that: SC Rogues scale their Sneak Attack faster and higher and can unlock Deathblows a lot earlier. People seem to dismiss that but this can make quite some difference even in the mid-game - if you miss a special ability darely. Same with other classes like Priests who can unlock Devotions a lot earlier and so on.

But ususally that's less interesting than cool multiclass synergies. 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

Well, that might be. Provided that you're keen on actually finishing those last 30%. In general you don't need to do it to finish the game.

And yeah, the earlier access to key abilities is important also. Kinda hate how long a MC Cipher needs to wait for Borrowed Instinct, Disintegrate, Amplified Wave for example.

 

Edit: Also Assassinate provides +25 Accuracy bonus

Edited May 19, 2020 by Haplok

[Raven Darkholme]

Solo you can get to PL 8 without even fighting a single enemy, ofc with party it takes longer thatn that but still, you should be able to hold off on all difficult fights and the dlcs till then.

[AeonsLegend]

I think the main issue with SC rogue is not the SC part, but just how good MC is with this class as it gets almost all of the benefits without losing much.

[Boeroer]

Yes. The rogue is pretty frontloaded with good abilities, there's nothing in the middle of his power levels that you MUST have asap - that's why it works so well in multiclass setups I guess. Same as Paladin I'd say.