Politics XXXVI (will catch up to superbowls soon)

[Volourn]

Remember when it was Trump threatening reporters/CNN with  nonsense and everyone saw him as a huge threat.... guess he isn't now.  CNN is being targeted with violence but it's not Trump doing it.

[Orogun01]

36 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Yes, crowd control is a different animal than surveillance or police brutality. When the dust settles you're going to see prosecution of everyone that the state can identify, and some "suicides". This also is what is happening in Honk Kong, as opposed to the tanks being rolled in to massacre protesters.

That seems  like a bit of a conspiracy theory, "suicides"? HK has a legitimate claim as Beijing has been encroaching on their rights and overtaking their government.  Black rioting is a predictable mainstay of the US, there's nothing exceptional about this situation

 

36 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Then I can only assume your knowledge of Hong Kong comes solely from western media or that you think that broken glass and fire materializes out of air.

I guess you take your news from China then? I said minimal, as in I haven't seen HK protesters try to rob a burned out bar when the news are interviewing the owner.

 

36 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

I assume you're a /pol/yp nationalist that developed into the Trump Internet Defense Force rather than admit you'd been had. I got your point, I gave you an example of some people who haven't made it in this country who aren't a racial minority and have similarly poor living standards to the minority you allude to.

I take my new from where I can so I can have a complete point, but you're off the mark. I'm a left leaning centrist with heavy libertarian leanings, a live and let live kinda guy.
I gave you an example of people who went trough extraordinary circumstances to escape poverty, why aren't those white people migrating? I don't get your point, I gave an example of people that are in the US making a better life for themselves as proof that you can make it if you try.

36 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

I've played this game hundreds of times at this point. Just come out and say what you think about this particular minority group.

Why do you conflate the worst elements of a minority with their best? I"m not a MS-13 gangbanger despite being an immigrant. I can only imagine what a decent black person thinks when they're told that looters and gangsters are their equal.
But to illustrate my point; you don't get to make a culture out of gangsta rap and then be surprised people think bad of you. My frustration comes at the lack of accountability by the black community (which is really just black entertainers) I'm talking common sense in a forum and a bunch of white people (I assume) are ready to pound me for my apparent racism. Is it too much to ask for the black community to communicate that looting is wrong and that it is hurting their cause? You know, hold your people up to a decent standard instead of defending crime.

[Volourn]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tony-timpa-disturbing-video-shows-dallas-officers-joking-as-they-restrain-man-who-died/

 

Where was the outrage? Where was the main stream news media? Where were the protesting athletes kneeling?

[Amentep]

2 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

Never been to Appalachia, I have however met lots of Hispanics that walked a desert to be here. They don't have legs in Appalachia?

There's a few decades of history of people leaving Appalachia to find better jobs. It doesn't change the poverty of the region, though.

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

 

And they attacked the CNN building in Atlanta, for some reason. Well, Trump will approve of that.

Word on the news was they were headed towards State Farm Arena and the police bottlenecks them on the road in front of CNN rather than let the protest spread uncontrolled. I think at that point it was a target because that's where they were.

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

If you can't make your life better in the US its because you're not trying.

Everyone being able to pull themself up by their bootstraps is a complete fallacy (as intended by the idiom itself). The US does have a lot of potential social mobility, but you absolutely require some luck to go along with the hard work, and a lot of people who work extremely hard never make any progress for reasons way beyond their control- like, say, a global recession caused by a pandemic putting you and 38 million others out of work, most of whom are looking to get into very few available replacement jobs.

Ironically, the fantasy of all the redundant steel plant workers and auto assemblers of the US bootstrap pulling to become web engineers and making tech start ups won Donald Trump and lost Hillary Clinton the last election because it was so obviously a fantasy.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

You just don't see behavior like this from other minority groups.

Sure you do. It's almost always the most marginalised groups that behave that way. In France it's typically north africans from the banlieux (not black africans; arabs/ berbers) and in the UK it's typically 'asians' (by the stupid UK usage of term; from the Indian subcontinent). Elsewhere it's typically poorer people from the dominant ethnicity. The common factor is being poor and marginalised, not any tone of skin.

[Amentep]

51 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

 
Is it too much to ask for the black community to communicate that looting is wrong and that it is hurting their cause? You know, hold your people up to a decent standard instead of defending crime.

I see african-american politicians, religious leaders, and others condemning any violent protest and advocating for non-violence everytime this type of violence has broken out. And often calling for non-violence before the protests start. So...not sure what you're on about.

[Gorth]

8 hours ago, 213374U said:

Civil society is only "ok" with using violence against suspects in as much as it is reasonable, justified and necessary. It's debatable whether calling in troops to fire at looters would meet that standard, but I'm leaning towards "no".

edit: so riots break out ostensibly over police brutality and perceived disregard for the lives of minorities. The answer must be... an escalation from police brutality to military brutality? Color me unconvinced.

It might work better if Trump send in the military against the police... but that's unlikely to happen

 

Edit: Or better yet, saved a bit on his discretionary spending on walls and maybe tackled the root causes, like widespread poverty and discrimination.

[Orogun01]

5 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Everyone being able to pull themself up by their bootstraps is a complete fallacy (as intended by the idiom itself). The US does have a lot of potential social mobility, but you absolutely require some luck to go along with the hard work, and a lot of people who work extremely hard never make any progress for reasons way beyond their control- like, say, a global recession caused by a pandemic putting you and 38 million others out of work, most of whom are looking to get into very few available replacement jobs.

Ironically, the fantasy of all the redundant steel plant workers and auto assemblers of the US bootstrap pulling to become web engineers and making tech start ups won Donald Trump and lost Hillary Clinton the last election because it was so obviously a fantasy.

We have different thoughts on what "making it" means, I think of making a living as making it. Apparently you think that being a steel plant worker is not. More so with all the online courses there's no excuse other than not wanting to go through the effort (insurmountable as it might seem) Alternatively there are other jobs they can occupy that pay well and don't require them to change careers or take 20 different courses. I know a master handyman who makes a heck of a living working for wealthy people.

 

9 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Sure you do. It's almost always the most marginalised groups that behave that way. In France it's typically north africans from the banlieux (not black africans; arabs/ berbers) and in the UK it's typically 'asians' (by the stupid UK usage of term; from the Indian subcontinent). Elsewhere it's typically poorer people from the dominant ethnicity. The common factor is being poor and marginalised, not any tone of skin.

While I agree with your examples and I know that with mass immigration comes a wave of crime (we clearly seen that pattern repeated in the US) I was referring to minority groups within the US.

[Orogun01]

3 minutes ago, Amentep said:

I see african-american politicians, religious leaders, and others condemning any violent protest and advocating for non-violence everytime this type of violence has broken out. And often calling for non-violence before the protests start. So...not sure what you're on about.

Sorry for the confusion, within the context of my post I referred to the black community as being a group of black entertainers. That's whom I'm referring, hi profile black people that tend to throw more kindle into the fire. Obviously members of the community would oppose it as they're directly affected by it.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, HoonDing said:

inb4 racial iq

Nah, going to boil down to "**** you, I got mine".

[213374U]

4 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

I cannot understand why someone would be on the side of the looters

 

59 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

I'm talking common sense in a forum and a bunch of white people (I assume) are ready to pound me for my apparent racism.

Who are you talking about? Here or elsewhere? Who is defending crime? Who is pounding you?

Look, I really hate how everything is sexist or racist or whatever-ist and that is used to immediately shut down debate these days, but if you say that blacks rioting is a "mainstay" of the US, that is pretty much by definition a racist remark. You are ascribing a specific behavior to a certain race. It also just happens to be patently wrong because it's not hard to find videos with non‑blacks participating in the riots.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

56 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

That seems  like a bit of a conspiracy theory, "suicides"?

Look into the deaths of Ferguson protesters over the years.

57 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

HK has a legitimate claim as Beijing has been encroaching on their rights and overtaking their government.

And people here are justified in resisting against state encroachment here, when it kills, imprisons, and monitors them. People everywhere are justified in doing this.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

I guess you take your news from China then?

Yeah, independent groups of journalists like Lausan is pretty good. State media is as bad as CNN.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

I'm a left leaning centrist with heavy libertarian leanings, a live and let live kinda guy.

It must have been another Orogun01 who said they liked Andrew Jackson because he "kicked out the jews who ran the federal reserve".

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

I don't get your point, I gave an example of people that are in the US making a better life for themselves as proof that you can make it if you try.

That there's a significant amount of people in America who do work hard yet don't make a better life for themselves despite trying, and that they just aren't black. Most people I know bust their ass for 40 hours every week and things like stable housing or retirement are out of reach. The idea that making it just requires hard work runs in the face of reality.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

Why do you conflate the worst elements of a minority with their best? I"m not a MS-13 gangbanger despite being an immigrant. I can only imagine what a decent black person thinks when they're told that looters and gangsters are their equal.

Given who such conflations come from, I assume they think something along the lines of "I hope I don't get shot".

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

But to illustrate my point; you don't get to make a culture out of gangsta rap and then be surprised people think bad of you. My frustration comes at the lack of accountability by the black community (which is really just black entertainers) I'm talking common sense in a forum and a bunch of white people (I assume) are ready to pound me for my apparent racism. Is it too much to ask for the black community to communicate that looting is wrong and that it is hurting their cause? You know, hold your people up to a decent standard instead of defending crime.

 

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

Black rioting is a predictable mainstay of the US, there's nothing exceptional about this situation

Could have fooled me.

Anyways, this is a load of bull****. Gangsta Rap isn't the base of contemporary black culture, it isn't even the majority of hip hop as a genre of music. Even just talking about "black entertainers" (and assuming they are the entirety of a community is a ridiculous stretch) most of the time I see them saying something it's about supporting black businesses or getting educated or some vague social justice thing. This bit reads like someone watched a music video and based their entire view on black people on it.

[Orogun01]

11 minutes ago, 213374U said:

 

Who are you talking about? Here or elsewhere? Who is defending crime? Who is pounding you?

Look, I really hate how everything is sexist or racist or whatever-ist and that is used to immediately shut down debate these days, but if you say that blacks rioting is a "mainstay" of the US, that is pretty much by definition a racist remark. You are ascribing a specific behavior to a certain race. It also just happens to be patently wrong because it's not hard to find videos with non‑blacks participating in the riots.

 

Since 2005 we get almost yearly, at least some form of riot caused by black outrage. I'm ascribing it to every member of the race, but the pattern holds. If you look through my posts you would clearly see I separate lawful black people from hoodlums as I dislike the fact that they're both bundled up together in the mind of Americans.

[Orogun01]

2 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Look into the deaths of Ferguson protesters over the years.

Has no clear evidence that it was the police, specially considering the level expertise to pull off suicides. You are making a better case that George Soros was behind the deaths than the Police department.

3 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

And people here are justified in resisting against state encroachment here, when it kills, imprisons, and monitors them. People everywhere are justified in doing this.

The political situation of HK is completely different to the US, also the HK didn't make a culture out gangster behavior. It's hard to say that black people are unjustly targeted when ghettos are high in crime and black on black crime is one of the leading causes of death, and yes police shootings are in that list.

7 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Yeah, independent groups of journalists like Lausan is pretty good. State media is as bad as CNN.

I tend to look suspiciously on those groups since the CCP has their hands in a lot of organizations that aren't directly related to the state.

9 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

It must have been another Orogun01 who said they liked Andrew Jackson because he "kicked out the jews who ran the federal reserve".

Nope, still the same guy and I still love that guy. Specially since the Fed is a scam on the world's people.

10 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

That there's a significant amount of people in America who do work hard yet don't make a better life for themselves despite trying, and that they just aren't black. Most people I know bust their ass for 40 hours every week and things like stable housing or retirement are out of reach. The idea that making it just requires hard work runs in the face of reality.

I don't know what you mean by better life, it seems like they are at least making a living.  If you have a career you can develop into a better position, if you have connections you can find jobs at better places. I don't think everyone can just become wealthy but I don't think that's a reasonable measure of improvement. My point is simple if you try to make a better life for yourself you can succeed, I'm sorry that the people you know are content with their lot in life and don't put the extra hours to better their career or find a better one.

16 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Could have fooled me.

Anyways, this is a load of bull****. Gangsta Rap isn't the base of contemporary black culture, it isn't even the majority of hip hop as a genre of music. Even just talking about "black entertainers" (and assuming they are the entirety of a community is a ridiculous stretch) most of the time I see them saying something it's about supporting black businesses or getting educated or some vague social justice thing. This bit reads like someone watched a music video and based their entire view on black people on it.

Most of the time black men aren't being shot by the cops, but the tacit or sometimes explicit approval by both the regular mainstream media and black media during these events certainly does normalize the violent behavior. I don't assume they're the entire community, they're just the representatives with the biggest platforms so when they play into the narrative of black oppression, when the only real oppression is the expectation of low standards we have for them.

[213374U]

13 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Since 2005 we get almost yearly, at least some form of riot caused by black outrage. I'm ascribing it to every member of the race, but the pattern holds. If you look through my posts you would clearly see I separate lawful black people from hoodlums as I dislike the fact that they're both bundled up together in the mind of Americans.

So despite there being non-blacks rioting too and by your own admission it being limited to non-law abiding blacks, this is a "black" behavior how?

Also, I really hope you're making headway on those free online network analysis courses. Advanced math is not something you just teach yourself overnight and it's not a question of if but when, that glorified Roombas will be able to do your job, whatever it is, for a fraction of what you make. Good luck.

[Zoraptor]

36 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

We have different thoughts on what "making it" means, I think of making a living as making it. Apparently you think that being a steel plant worker is not. More so with all the online courses there's no excuse other than not wanting to go through the effort (insurmountable as it might seem) Alternatively there are other jobs they can occupy that pay well and don't require them to change careers or take 20 different courses. I know a master handyman who makes a heck of a living working for wealthy people.

Nothing wrong with being a steel plant worker or whatever, I really couldn't care less what job people work 99% of the time- but the vast majority of such workers will not be retraining in the way Hillary suggested or you seem to be suggesting because it's fricking impossible for them to and there simply aren't enough Economy 2.0 jobs out there. The fantasy that there are is convenient because it places all the blame on those who fail. Everyone doing an online course to become a web designer or starting their own business is utterly impractical. Most importantly, the situation with Steel Towns in the US is identical to what we have here with single industry towns like the Freezing Works Town- once the big employer goes the vast majority of the money is gone too, immediately. Good luck opening up hundreds of new businesses in a town with much of its workforce unemployed, or competing as a self taught web designer against tens or hundreds of thousands of others.

As for the handyman, trades are an absolutely fantastic option for many. My brother in law is an engineer- and after 4 years at uni he'd be making more money for less hours worked if he'd stayed as an electrician. But, you can't have the entire steel plant retrain to be electricians or builders when there's no money in the town any more, what are they going to build or wire when no one has any money? End of the day if you're in a service type industry you have to be serving people with money or you are going to fail.

[Zoraptor]

In other news, Donald Trump is withdrawing the US from the WHO. Probably won't make much immediate difference as the US has been in arrears for its contributions for ages, but it's always interesting to see the dichotomy of Trump simultaneously raging about the US not being backed up enough and losing international influence to others like China then turning around and tearing up agreements and leaving organisations; often handing the most influential mantle over to China in the process. At this point it's difficult to see even Trump being stupid enough to not see the connection between the two, guess it's politically expedient though in focusing the us vs them attitude.

[Orogun01]

16 minutes ago, 213374U said:

So despite there being non-blacks rioting too and by your own admission it being limited to non-law abiding blacks, this is a "black" behavior how?

Also, I really hope you're making headway on those free online network analysis courses. Advanced math is not something you just teach yourself overnight and it's not a question of if but when, that glorified Roombas will be able to do your job, whatever it is, for a fraction of what you make. Good luck.

Fair enough, maybe the language is incensing. I do stand by the fact that you can accurately predict a black riot shortly after an incident involving a black death by a person of a different race.

I'm not, I am however learning hardsurface sculpting, organic and anatomy sculpting, tried my hand at Marvelous designer and during the years I was inactive in the forums learned to 3D print and design for 3D printing. Your reductio ad absurdum completely misses the point that we all have transferable skills from our professions that would lend to another job, which would only require minimal retraining. I don't know why people like to be hyperbolic and expect a truck driver to become a day trader, he/she could move on to being a mechanic or a train driver

[Orogun01]

12 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Nothing wrong with being a steel plant worker or whatever, I really couldn't care less what job people work 99% of the time- but the vast majority of such workers will not be retraining in the way Hillary suggested or you seem to be suggesting because it's fricking impossible for them to and there simply aren't enough Economy 2.0 jobs out there. The fantasy that there are is convenient because it places all the blame on those who fail. Everyone doing an online course to become a web designer or starting their own business is utterly impractical. Most importantly, the situation with Steel Towns in the US is identical to what we have here with single industry towns like the Freezing Works Town- once the big employer goes the vast majority of the money is gone too, immediately. Good luck opening up hundreds of new businesses in a town with much of its workforce unemployed, or competing as a self taught web designer against tens or hundreds of thousands of others.

As for the handyman, trades are an absolutely fantastic option for many. My brother in law is an engineer- and after 4 years at uni he'd be making more money for less hours worked if he'd stayed as an electrician. But, you can't have the entire steel plant retrain to be electricians or builders when there's no money in the town any more, what are they going to build or wire when no one has any money? End of the day if you're in a service type industry you have to be serving people with money or you are going to fail.

That certainly will become an issue in the future as automation takes over.I can only hope that new jobs open up as technology advances but I don't see a clear solution.

[Malcador]

35 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

In other news, Donald Trump is withdrawing the US from the WHO. Probably won't make much immediate difference as the US has been in arrears for its contributions for ages, but it's always interesting to see the dichotomy of Trump simultaneously raging about the US not being backed up enough and losing international influence to others like China then turning around and tearing up agreements and leaving organisations; often handing the most influential mantle over to China in the process. At this point it's difficult to see even Trump being stupid enough to not see the connection between the two, guess it's politically expedient though in focusing the us vs them attitude.

I am guessing the money's going to go to some new agency Jared will concoct.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

Has no clear evidence that it was the police, specially considering the level expertise to pull off suicides.

At that rate of death, coincidence seems less likely than conspiracy.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

The political situation of HK is completely different to the US, also the HK didn't make a culture out gangster behavior. It's hard to say that black people are unjustly targeted when ghettos are high in crime and black on black crime is one of the leading causes of death, and yes police shootings are in that list.

There is no struggle against authority which is completely different, and Hong Kongers are accused of the same **** as protestors here. The only real difference is that you support one government putting down the boot and not the other.

To boot, you're obfuscating and victim blaming, which is par for the course. People shouldn't have to be model citizens not to be targeted by jack booted state officials, regardless of any characteristics. Men commit violent crimes more than women and male on male crime is the biggest cause of death for the fellas. Do you think it would be fair to say that because men made a culture out of toxic masculinity for police to start aggressively targeting men?

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

I tend to look suspiciously on those groups since the CCP has their hands in a lot of organizations that aren't directly related to the state.

Lmao swap "CCP' for "CIA' or "State Department" and this is exactly what China stans say. I guess one thing yall can agree on is that Hong Kongers can't tell their own stories without being pawns of a nefarious organization.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

Nope, still the same guy and I still love that guy.

Do you think ethnic cleansing is "live and let live" behavior?

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

I don't know what you mean by better life, it seems like they are at least making a living.  If you have a career you can develop into a better position, if you have connections you can find jobs at better places. I don't think everyone can just become wealthy but I don't think that's a reasonable measure of improvement. My point is simple if you try to make a better life for yourself you can succeed, I'm sorry that the people you know are content with their lot in life and don't put the extra hours to better their career or find a better one.

This is like some sort of self-help tweetbot. Reducing success to "just work extra hours" is some clown ****.

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

Most of the time black men aren't being shot by the cops, but the tacit or sometimes explicit approval by both the regular mainstream media and black media during these events certainly does normalize the violent behavior. I don't assume they're the entire community, they're just the representatives with the biggest platforms so when they play into the narrative of black oppression, when the only real oppression is the expectation of low standards we have for them.

This is, again, bull****. There is no approval, tacit or explicit, of rioting from mainstream media, and the only "black media" I've seen supporting it is radical media run by folks outside the political spectrum that already believes the US should be destroyed. Most black celebs are focusing on a man being murdered more than the looting, but their comments are **** like "this is why voting is important" because the author of the infamous crime bill will surely be the guy to tackle police brutality. And the idea that low standards is more oppression than disproportionate policing is utterly laughable. Like white people thinking you can't do anything is worse than the disproportionate responses from police or less job opportunities.

[Volourn]

"This is, again, bull****. There is no approval, tacit or explicit, of rioting from mainstream media, "

 

The mainstream media absolutely supports the rioting.

[213374U]

50 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Fair enough, maybe the language is incensing. I do stand by the fact that you can accurately predict a black riot shortly after an incident involving a black death by a person of a different race.

I'm not, I am however learning hardsurface sculpting, organic and anatomy sculpting, tried my hand at Marvelous designer and during the years I was inactive in the forums learned to 3D print and design for 3D printing. Your reductio ad absurdum completely misses the point that we all have transferable skills from our professions that would lend to another job, which would only require minimal retraining. I don't know why people like to be hyperbolic and expect a truck driver to become a day trader, he/she could move on to being a mechanic or a train driver

I'll agree that you can probably predict a riot *in which black people will participate* shortly after the nth occurrence of cops murdering a black person. Not much else though. And if cops showing not just disregard but overt contempt for the lives of the people they are meant to be serving isn't grounds for civil unrest, I'm not sure what is.

And I'm glad you're learning new skills. Doctors too, learn new skills for about ten years before they are ready. And you have AIs that can diagnose certain diseases with greater accuracy, and robots that can perform simple surgeries better than humans. An artist never really stops learning, but "art" produced by computer programs is good enough that most people can't tell the difference. That's happening right now. Look back twenty years and think about how much the world has changed. So I hope you'll remember this conversation when twenty years from now a "self-made" data scientist sneers at you for not having learned how to code complex analysis algorithms in whatever language they use by then, from an online course in your spare time.

[Orogun01]

16 minutes ago, 213374U said:

 

And I'm glad you're learning new skills. Doctors too, learn new skills for about ten years before they are ready. And you have AIs that can diagnose certain diseases with greater accuracy, and robots that can perform simple surgeries better than humans. An artist never really stops learning, but "art" produced by computer programs is good enough that most people can't tell the difference. That's happening right now. Look back twenty years and think about how much the world has changed. So I hope you'll remember this conversation when twenty years from now a "self-made" data scientist sneers at you for not having learned how to code complex analysis algorithms in whatever language they use by then, from an online course in your spare time.

In 20 years from now I'll be either getting ready for retiring in Costa Rica or selling complex 3D printable models online. With the advent of more advanced 3d printers, I can safely say that my job its somewhat secure.

[213374U]

Guess we've finally arrived at the destination predicted by Malcador. Regardless, I sincerely hope you're right. Though I'm thinking US steel workers may have felt as you do now.