Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

OK, for net version, I'm proud to announce that Strand of Favor (and similar items) exploit will be gone.
The duration etension will only apply to effect happening after equipping.
Altough I have some philosophical concern about why to mod this. If people don't like the exploit, they can simply not use it. It's different from an overpowered ability that you don't want to use because OP, which lead to sadly ignoring it entirely. 
I guess I wanted to propose a "legit package".

I have some plan for SC Paladin. Currently, their main asset is the kind of infinite zeal they can get from Divine Retribution.
They have nice new abilities but nothing really game changing.

I think I'm going to buff Hastening's Exho upgrades duration (not the unupgraded version which is available to MC).
So it will be 25s of Swift and 25s of Nimble/strong for 1 zeal (taking into account my precedent changes).

Also, I'm leaning to add to Providence an effect that gives +10% damages (stackable 3 times) for the rest of battle when knocked out (not only applied to auto-rez knocked out so it has better interaction with Sacred Sacrifice and indirectly promote its use. EDIT : this part is not feasible).
I think it will fit very well Paladin fluff.

I'm also leaning to rise a bit the damages (both to foes and self) of Sacred Sacrifice (by a factor x1.2) so it has some use when not used near death. It costs a very precious Tier 9 ability point so being very situational compared to Divine Immolation. Even with this change, Divine Immolation would stay the better ability in the general case, but with a smaller margin. Rising damages to self promotes a bit suicidal paladins  

Edited May 29, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Ophiuchus]

15 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

OK, for net version, I'm proud to announce that Strand of Favor (and similar items) exploit will be gone.
The duration etension will only apply to effect happening after equipping.
Altough I have some philosophical concern about why to mod this. If people don't like the exploit, they can simply not use it. It's different from an overpowered ability that you don't want to use because OP, which lead to sadly ignoring it entirely. 
I guess I wanted to propose a "legit package".

I have some plan for SC Paladin. Currently, their main asset is the kind of infinite zeal they can get from Divine Retribution.
They have nice new abilities but nothing really game changing.

I think I'm going to buff Hastening's Exho upgrades duration (not the unupgraded version which is available to MC).
So it will be 25s of Swift and 25s of Nimble/strong for 1 zeal (taking into account my precedent changes).

Also, I'm leaning to add to Providence an effect that gives +10% damages (stackable 3 times) for the rest of battle when knocked out (not only applied to auto-rez knocked out so it has better interaction with Sacred Sacrifice and indirectly promote its use. EDIT : this part is not feasible).
I think it will fit very well Paladin fluff.

I'm also leaning to rise a bit the damages (both to foes and self) of Sacred Sacrifice (by a factor x1.2) so it has some use when not used near death. It costs a very precious Tier 9 ability point so being very situational compared to Divine Immolation. Even with this change, Divine Immolation would stay the better ability in the general case, but with a smaller margin. Rising damages to self promotes a bit suicidal paladins  

Thanks for your continuing work. Your mod, alongside the Community Patch and Priest Subclasses Rebalanced is really making the game feature complete. Opening up so many more effective build combinations has jump-started the game. (Your Barbarian changes were brilliant - Blood Frenzy is worth taking and Barbarian/Monk is nuts now.)

[Elric Galad]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:04 PM, Elric Galad said:

Also, I'm leaning to add to Providence an effect that gives +10% damages (stackable 3 times) for the rest of battle when knocked out (not only applied to auto-rez knocked out so it has better interaction with Sacred Sacrifice and indirectly promote its use. EDIT : this part is not feasible).
I think it will fit very well Paladin fluff.

I finally went with Courageous until end of combat when Providence kicks in.
Note that it is more intended as a SC Paladin buff than a Providence buff (which wasn't strictly necessary). I wanted the class to have some sort of long lasting ressource outside of Divine Retribution "abuse".
Also Courageous, even as a Tier 3 inspiration isn't so strong for a Paladin who doesn't have long casting ability. But it is rare, and fluff-y for a Paladin. 

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I'm also leaning to rise a bit the damages (both to foes and self) of Sacred Sacrifice (by a factor x1.2) so it has some use when not used near death. It costs a very precious Tier 9 ability point so being very situational compared to Divine Immolation. Even with this change, Divine Immolation would stay the better ability in the general case, but with a smaller margin. Rising damages to self promotes a bit suicidal paladins  

I've eventually changed significantly the whole Sacred Immolation line.
The main issue with this ability for me isn't the self-damages (you can work around) but the Zeal cost compared to the benefit you get from it.
I compared Sacred Immolation to Symbols which are only a Tier above (and certainly good spells) : Symbols have 2 less PEN but deals significantly higher damages, with longer duration and secondary effects (which only upgraded Sacred Immolation get). And obviously they come without self-damages. Symbols aren't strictly Point Blank but have a cast time (which is a big plus for Sacred Immolation).
I tend to consider Tier 8 spells as around 3 martial ressources.

Sacred immolation is in the same range but inferior. Sacred Immolation would worth around 2,5 martial ressources as a spell if they didn't have self damages. With it I think it's reasonable to put it at 2 zeal. Sacred Immolation "cost" is basicaly whatever zeals it takes plus self-damages, which advocate for a reasonable zeal cost. (I cancelled the reduction of self damages that I implemented in 1.0 though). Basically you want to use it as soon as you have health to spare (which happens as a tank).

Upgrades would worth a bit more, but they are Tier IX (and Tier IX ability point are precious) and restricted to SC Paladins which I want to promote.

Also Sacred Immolation can't be recast while still active, which prevent some level of spamming, even with a reduced cost. 

Finally, I specifcally rised Sacred Sacrifice damages AND self damages to 1,25 the value of the unupgraded version so it has some use even when not used for self rez. Divine Immolation should still be the go to upgrade since the benefit are easier to get.

 

With these changes and the previous one to Hastening Exhortations, I think SC paladins will worth a try, even when not used as a Beckoner's best friend.

[Elric Galad]

OK Version 1.4.3 is live.

Bye bye Strand of Favor. Tweaks to invincibility stuff (BDD, Unbending)

Buffs to SC Paladins and SC Fighters.

[Elric Galad]

Hi guys,

 

What would you think about giving all companions and sidekicks a minor stat buff (something like +2 to total stats) in order to compensate for being less flexible than hirelings ? From a minmax point of view, they feel a bit suboptimal.

I know some of them have unique benefits (special subclasses, Eder being pet-compatible and getting his own small stat boost after his quest...), but I think it would be more clear to give it to all of them.

[Boeroer]

I'm a bit sad that not all OCs have their unique "good" subclass. That would be enough motivation for me to play them instead of "minmaxed" adventurers. 

Maia's and Thekehu's subclasses are already great and therefore they don't need any boosts imo. 

Some of the other unique subclasses are only so/so, like Xoti's and esp. Serafen's. If I would buff something then those subclasses (not a blanket stat boost - although that's way less complicated of course ;)). For example shift Serafen's odds more towards the beneficial outcomes of his Wild Mind and let Xoti not only gain wounds per melee kill but with all kills - or something like that. 

Edér would have been great with a fighter subclass like "Saint's War Veteran" or "Dyrwood Militia" or so. A passive that is somehow in line with the workings of his armor for example. The pet slot is a Berath Blessings bonus so it could still come on top as reward for collecting BB points. 

Aloth would have been nice with a Aedyran-specific wizard subclass. Like a Court Wizard or Court Mage or something (think that would fit Aedyran customs). I know that breaks the mold of the wizard subclasses being devided by "schools" like Transmutation etc. - but Bloodmage already does this, so where's the loss?

Pallegina's Brotherhood otFS subclass needs better implementation of the Wrath otFS ability at least. 

+2 to stats is also okay though. I would'nt do +2 to a single stat though but +1/+1 I guess. But then... does that have any noticable impact? 

 

 

 

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I'm a bit sad that not all OCs have their unique "good" subclass. That would be enough motivation for me to play them instead of "minmaxed" adventurers. 

Maia's and Thekehu's subclasses are already great and therefore they don't need any boosts imo. 

Yeah, basically I count Eder (stat boost and pet), Maia (unique subclass without drawback), Tekehau (sweet druidic friendly Chill Fog and other goodies) and Vatnir (arguably the best priest nuker with varied damages types) as the superior companions.

Then, there is a long list of companions of sidekicks with either normal subclass or unique ones but not so impressive as Xoti.

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Some of the other unique subclasses are only so/so, like Xoti's and esp. Serafen's. If I would buff something then those subclasses (not a blanket stat boost - although that's way less complicated of course ;)). For example shift Serafen's odds more towards the beneficial outcomes of his Wild Mind and let Xoti not only gain wounds per melee kill but with all kills - or something like that. 

Yeah, Serafen is bad but BPM already changed it. Pallegina is horrible too. Yeah, Herald is good but basically any hired Herald will be better (even considering that I nerfed troubadour). But both CP and BPM boosted her (I boosted WotFS, maybe even too much, and CP resurrected her PoE1 unique FoD).

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Edér would have been great with a fighter subclass like "Saint's War Veteran" or "Dyrwood Militia" or so. A passive that is somehow in line with the workings of his armor for example. The pet slot is a Berath Blessings bonus so it could still come on top as reward for collecting BB points. 

Aloth would have been nice with a Aedyran-specific wizard subclass. Like a Court Wizard or Court Mage or something (think that would fit Aedyran customs). I know that breaks the mold of the wizard subclasses being devided by "schools" like Transmutation etc. - but Bloodmage already does this, so where's the loss?

Pallegina's Brotherhood otFS subclass needs better implementation of the Wrath otFS ability at least. 

+2 to stats is also okay though.

Well I agree with what you said, unique subclasses or abilities would have been perfect, but it will require deeper changes than what I intend. Also fixing all sidekicks would be difficult too. +2 stats is kind of first aid fix but I think it would work.

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I would'nt do +2 to a single stat though but +1/+1 I guess.

It doesn't change much I presume. The main issue with +2 to 1 stat is that it could change a character fluff a bit too much. You're not the same person with 12 or 14 Int. But magical items do the same anyway.

I'll check all of them individually.

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But then... does that have any noticable impact? 

Good question. I guess the major impact is in the psychology of a min maxer. You know your character isn't going to have an optimal distribution but you get something in return. +2 stats is +4 to some secondary defense and a bit of something elsewhere. Worth at least a talent. Technically your character will be a bit stronger if your build is vaguely decent.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Please find below the list of changes I plan. I feel they are pretty reasonable according to their fluff, but don't hesitate if you find something out of place.

 

Aloth : +2 PER

Eder : +1 MIG, +1 DEX

Maia : +1 MIG, +1 INT

Pallegina : +1 PER, +1 RES

Serafen : +1 CON, +1 DEX

Tekehu : +1 MIG, +1 CON

Xoti : +1 PER, +1 DEX

 

Fassina : +1 PER, +1 INT

Konstanten : +1 MIG, +1 DEX Edit : +1 PER and +1 INT instead as suggested

Rekke : + 1 INT, +1 CON  Edit : +1 PER (to distinguish more from Mirke who has similar class choice but is more on the tank side)

Mirke : +1 MIG, +1 CON

Ydwin : +2 DEX

Vatnir : +1 PER, +1 RES

Edited July 6, 2021 by Elric Galad

[dgray62]

IMO Konstanten really needs a boost in both PER and INT. I like playing him as a howler, but he's really low in these stats (11 and 10) given his skald subclass.

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, dgray62 said:

IMO Konstanten really needs a boost in both PER and INT. I like playing him as a howler, but he's really low in these stats (11 and 10) given his skald subclass.

Well I got similar issue with Geomancer Maia's INT, so I sympathize.

+1 INT and PER aren't going to save the day but this cannot hurt either. I'll go with that.

[NotDumbEnough]

I feel that Pallegina would benefit more from additional INT for both her chanter and paladin abilities.

A more sneaky way to make her stand out more might be to improve the avian godlike effects of the heart chime amulet you get from her personal quest. Aloth actually gets a permanent bonus from his personal quest resolution which makes him stand out. Eder does too, but arguably it is less impressive (5 will/1 resolve). 

For sidekicks, Vatnir needs a minor buff to his godlike racial ability and/or a rogue subclass rather than minor attribute boosts, imo (Rogue/Priest Vatnir feels weird and out of place).

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I feel that Pallegina would benefit more from additional INT for both her chanter and paladin abilities.

The point is not to give them optimal stats. I only added 1 point to Maia and Konstantin because their 10 int was arguably the biggest offender. 13 Int can still be worked around with food and items.

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A more sneaky way to make her stand out more might be to improve the avian godlike effects of the heart chime amulet you get from her personal quest.

Actually, all 3 NPC godlike races would need a buff (compared to what I did to the other godlike races). But I didn't want to go in this direction, especially because Vatnir and Tekehu have very good subclasses. Note that Pallegina subclass has been buffed too by CP and BPM.

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Aloth actually gets a permanent bonus from his personal quest resolution which makes him stand out.

Somehow, I missed that. Thx, good to know.

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Eder does too, but arguably it is less impressive (5 will/1 resolve). 

Yeah but he has a pet slot unlockable through Berath blessing.

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For sidekicks, Vatnir needs a minor buff to his godlike racial ability and/or a rogue subclass rather than minor attribute boosts, imo (Rogue/Priest Vatnir feels weird and out of place).

Vatnir is a bit sneaky and treacherous, so rogue made sense in my book.

 

The issue with rework specific to each NPC is that in won't provide a natural solution for many of them. +2 to total stats isn't perfect but it works for all of them.

[Elric Galad]

20 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

For sidekicks, Vatnir needs a minor buff to his godlike racial ability 

That being said, buffing Vatnir to +10 defenses against all afflictions won't hurt

[Elric Galad]

Now I'm planning to add 1.5% damages resistance to "Tough" ability for each point of Constitution beyond 10.

Note the the purpose isn't to buff Tough but to buff Constitution. Constitution is often considered as the worst stats (at least to be maxed. Resolve can be great when maxed). At 30 CON you'll have twice base HP and 30% damages resistance. More or less equivalent to triple hp pool, plus more benefits from healing.

Note that adding an effect directly to Constitution itself doesn't seem to be technically feasible.

[Not So Clever Hound]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Now I'm planning to add 1.5% damages resistance to "Tough" ability for each point of Constitution beyond 10.

I think that makes sense. An alternative could be to add % Healing Received maybe? I'm thinking about this in particular as it would be one of few things to increase the potency of Unbending?

(IIRC as you pointed out in another thread, Unbending is unaffected by Healing Done modifiers but is affected by Healing Received ones as well as INT of course. But there aren't that many things in-game that add Healing Received.)

Edited July 16, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I think that makes sense. An alternative could be to add % Healing Received maybe? I'm thinking about this in particular as it would be one of few things to increase the potency of Unbending?

Yeah, healing received would have been a possibility too. However :

1) Healing Received should probably have been integrated as part of attributes bonus. This would have been the best solution. As an independent bonus as I'm forced to do, I think it's better to do something else. Also "Tough" hints more toward damages reduction than greater recover. But that's subjective.

2) Unbending is indeed an issue. I've worked quite a bit to tweak it in a previous version. Now it gives back a fair amount of health back, but can only be beyond 100%* with the right upgrade, the right food and probably BPM's version of Nature Godlike. Healing received bonuses are rare enough so it works. Now if I have to deal with another bonus that can be between 0% and 75% (assuming +3% healing received for each point beyond 10), good luck balancing the ability for everyone !

3) CON afflictions were the biggest reason. They cause healing received penalty. Felt like it would have been a weird double penalty if I added healing received to tough.

6 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

(IIRC as you pointed out in another thread, Unbending is unaffected by Healing Done modifiers but is affected by Healing Received ones as well as INT of course. But there aren't that many things in-game that add Healing Received.)

* Note that current BPM Unbending isn't affected by INT and PL for % of health returned, only for base duration. See mod note for details. It helped balancing it.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

1) Healing Received should probably have been integrated as part of attributes bonus. This would have been the best solution. As an independent bonus as I'm forced to do, I think it's better to do something else. Also "Tough" hints more toward damages reduction than greater recover. But that's subjective.

i get that it's a bit out of flavor, but adding DR to tough doesn't sound seem like it would buff con so much as slightly buff tough. I'm still not incentivized to take boost con or have high-con characters pick up tough, because tough generally gives me so much extra effective health already, even for my squishy characters.

 

healing received however, does actually solve a problem depending on the #s involved (problem being: hard to heal a vast health pool). ideally it'd be attached to con itself somehow, but failing that, it seems second-best choice of attaching it as a bonus effect to tough would be great.

[thelee]

well, actually, thinking about this more, DR and healing recieved both do the same thing - make healing more effective. just with different flavor. so i dunno. it's probably fine.

[Elric Galad]

14 hours ago, thelee said:

well, actually, thinking about this more, DR and healing recieved both do the same thing - make healing more effective. just with different flavor. so i dunno. it's probably fine.

Exactly

If you analyse the value above, you'll find that it is a bit less effective at providing benefits from healing than +3% healing received per point. But it applies also to the initial pool of hp (which is huge, with High CON).

I don't think it's bad that CON has an edge for providing benefits early in the battle as long as it still has meaningful effects later on. When self healing is concerned, the choice is CON Vs MIG. MIG has an edge for long term healing while CON will retain early effectiveness (and greater pool of hp for convenience). Having less reliance on healing earlier can be interesting tactically.

 

All that being said, if I had to do the design from scratch, I would probably have gone for CON +3% hp and healing received, CON afflictions doing something else and probably cut healing done from attributes entirely. It's not like MIG would have been useless.

[Elric Galad]

Oh my...

Just realized that there is no attribute based scaling in this game (unless I'm mistaken).

Only attribute threshold based effects (Amra).

That means I might have to code 25 separate effects to give scaling bonus based on Constitution beyond 10.

These separate effects will mess with double inversions if I go with damages reduction.

I should avoid to think about changes without being able to check the game file 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:54 PM, Elric Galad said:

Oh my...

Just realized that there is no attribute based scaling in this game (unless I'm mistaken).

Only attribute threshold based effects (Amra).

That means I might have to code 25 separate effects to give scaling bonus based on Constitution beyond 10.

These separate effects will mess with double inversions if I go with damages reduction.

I should avoid to think about changes without being able to check the game file 

Okay, even this is quite convoluted : it isn't possible to have a status adapting dynamically to changing value of constitution. It would be necessary to code like 25 new abilities and update the ability tree in parallel (all ability tree from all profession and possibly pre-generated kith foes) just to add a scaling con effect to Tough.

Sorry for spamming this forum before checking what could actually be done.

I'm simply going to tune up Constitution to +/-6% health (not realistic to do more since very low con would really be impossible to play, and it would buff Megabosses too much). 6% feels like double the effect of might, so "sounds" good ; yeah I know it won't suddenly make CON much better for long battle,  but it would still better than nothing. Huge health pool still have some utility (easier to maintain threshold such as bloodied because of the wider absolute range).

[Not So Clever Hound]

22 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I'm simply going to tune up Constitution to +/-6% health (not realistic to do more since very low con would really be impossible to play, and it would buff Megabosses too much). 6% feels like double the effect of might, so "sounds" good ; yeah I know it won't suddenly make CON much better for long battle,  but it would still better than nothing. Huge health pool still have some utility (easier to maintain threshold such as bloodied because of the wider absolute range).

Just spitballing here @Elric Galad, but wouldn't tuning up the impact of CON on FORT possibly be a better payback for pumping CON? Big health pools are nice, but to me either avoiding DMG or getting consistent Healing is typically more important, in basically any scenario except certain Streetfighter/Human/Death Godlike shenanigans.

Usually I'm not planning to use too much that big Health pool unless I use it as a casting resource (Bloodmage) in which case I would approach things differently. On the other hand, more FORT always help. Only a handful of builds in Upscaled PotD can get their FORT high enough to shrug off high-level FORT-targeting attacks without other lines of defense.

Maybe it's just me, but making CON increase FORT by more than +2/point instead of increasing Health pool would incentivize  more to pump it and have a greater impact on my gameplay. UNLESS, it also equally boosts FORT on all PotD enemies, which might make certain enemies basically unapproachable with FORT targeting attacks even with debuffing. That said, increasing further the Health pool of already super-tanky PotD enemies... I don't know.

In any case, I salute your efforts, once again.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

19 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Just spitballing here @Elric Galad, but wouldn't tuning up the impact of CON on FORT possibly be a better payback for pumping CON? Big health pools are nice, but to me either avoiding DMG or getting consistent Healing is typically more important, in basically any scenario except certain Streetfighter/Human/Death Godlike shenanigans.

There is an unique parameter for all attibutes contribution to the secondary defense (Fort, Will, Ref)

19 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

 UNLESS, it also equally boosts FORT on all PotD enemies, which might make certain enemies basically unapproachable with FORT targeting attacks even with debuffing.

Yeah, it would have too.

19 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

That said, increasing further the Health pool of already super-tanky PotD enemies... I don't know.

That's why I'm only rising it a little bit. Megabosses are basically the only case where it will be really significant. And all the abilities I've buffed will help in this case.

Anyway, I've put this change in the optional "nerfs and rework" package, not the buff one for this reason.

19 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

In any case, I salute your efforts, once again.  

Thank you. I hope this could be the last change I try. I might change the game too much if I continue in this direction.

[Mittomain]

Would it be possible to add increasing damage reduction to tough as health is lost (likely the added HP/LVL should be removed as well)?

This would also indirectly buff CON, because high HP chars could stay longer on low(ish) HP levels.

Not really sure whether it's a good idea, or if it would just make everyone too OP in general...

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, Mittomain said:

Would it be possible to add increasing damage reduction to tough as health is lost (likely the added HP/LVL should be removed as well)?

This would also indirectly buff CON, because high HP chars could stay longer on low(ish) HP levels.

Not really sure whether it's a good idea, or if it would just make everyone too OP in general...

I had this idea too.

The thing is effects based on health loss are based on percentage of health loss. So with lower health, you'll get higher damages reduction faster than with higher. With sustained regeneration, it would benefit lower health more.

I'm not 100% sure of overall benefit but it would be very indirect buff if any.

 

What would benefit higher health more would be "full healing" effects. Unfortunately there aren't (except Feign Death for pets which basically grant full health back).