Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Noqn]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:50 PM, Elric Galad said:

Could I incorporate this file in BPM ? (You'll be credited as usual)

Of course

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Noqn

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

That would be very annoying to play against since a LOT of enemies have Finishing Blow.

Indeed, but BPM also intends to buff foes.

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I believe destroy on death means permakill since Barring Death's Door no longer prevents death.

I should have said Destroy on Near Death, like Circle of Death, Detonation, etc... These effect don't cause Permakill. I think only Disintegration means Permakill. I don't think there is another ability that prevents Hauni O Whe from dividing for example.

 

Foes with Finishing Blows hit super hard anyway (those skeleton archers mostly). If they target you when you're under 25% health, you're already pretty likely to get  knockdown due to the bonus damages.

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Maybe just give it an accuracy modifier instead, e.g. +15 or +20 so that it is more reliable.

It is already +10 by the way. 

[NotDumbEnough]

18 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I should have said Destroy on Near Death, like Circle of Death, Detonation, etc... These effect don't cause Permakill. I think only Disintegration means Permakill. I don't think there is another ability that prevents Hauni O Whe from dividing for example.

All of these permakill, which is why you need to be very careful using Circle of Death... I have had to reload saves before because the caster got confused, or one of my party members got charmed.

[NotDumbEnough]

It seems that Time Parasite duration does not benefit from PL, maybe worth changing for the sake of consistency.

[Elric Galad]

14 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

All of these permakill, which is why you need to be very careful using Circle of Death... I have had to reload saves before because the caster got confused, or one of my party members got charmed.

Ok, this worths taking into account then.

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

It seems that Time Parasite duration does not benefit from PL, maybe worth changing for the sake of consistency.

Is this the time that gets actually applied (I guess yes) ?

I'll correct this.

[Elric Galad]

Ok, so finishing blow again.

Now I start to think that the cost might be the root of the problem. 

Finishing blow is a damages only ability (bar the Interruption on Hit) and you pay 2 Guiles for just damages, mostly conditional. So the conditional damages have to be very strong to justify picking this and spending 2, while spamming Arterial Strikes would provide more obvious benefits while doing most of the job done.

To worth the 2 Guiles, these damages would have to be so high when the conditions are met... That it would become a nightmare playing against*

 

By setting this ability to 1 Guile, I would provide Rogue a spammy tool to finish targets.  Rogue doesn't have any other pure damages ability (which is good design since the whole class is about this) so it would be much easier to find room for it in a build.

It may involve tweaking down the values a bit (and upgrade, and Skaen's) but probably not that much when I compare to my own pure damages ability benchmark, accurate wounding shot.

 

* Funny consideration : You and your foes are not playing the same game. You are a very dangerous target doing extreme damages with relatively low health so spike damages work Vs your party.

Your targets are often less dangerous but tend to have tons of hp. Less so when fighting Kiths, but even them are often more numerous but less dangerous than you.

Spike damages tend to be a bit less good for the player party in my experience. I would tend to think that it is only partially related to my own prudent playstyle.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

Maybe have it refund cost on kill like old Barbarian's ability?

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Maybe have it refund cost on kill like old Barbarian's ability?

For the same reasons I removed it for Barbarian :

- when you would use it for the refund, it's bonus would likely end up in overkilling

- uselessness Vs Bosses

- would be useful mostly Vs near Death, and you have much better way of dealing Vs Near Death foes (circle of death, sip from the marrow, etc...)

 

And also :

- would not work for Skaen Priest

Edited February 27, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:01 AM, Elric Galad said:

Fury weapon can't bounce either and I wasn't able to fix it for now.

Just throwing this out here, I noticed that Fury's weapon bounce has -20% penalty rather than the -50% penalty of Driving Flight. Maybe different penalties lead to incompatible attacks for bouncing.

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Just throwing this out here, I noticed that Fury's weapon bounce has -20% penalty rather than the -50% penalty of Driving Flight. Maybe different penalties lead to incompatible attacks for bouncing.

No, Watershaper Focus has a similar property and works with bounce.

[thelee]

22 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

To worth the 2 Guiles, these damages would have to be so high when the conditions are met... That it would become a nightmare playing against*

 

By setting this ability to 1 Guile, I would provide Rogue a spammy tool to finish targets.  Rogue doesn't have any other pure damages ability (which is good design since the whole class is about this) so it would be much easier to find room for it in a build.

good consideration, but have you tested any encounter with enemy rogue-likes? i feel like one of the ways that the fights don't get so insane is that the AI runs out of guile so it finally runs out of being able to use finishing blow, as otherwise anytime someone drops below 50% health can be a snowballing event if you don't have a quick heal response to an enemy rogue (especially ranged). this seems like one of the areas where the symmetry of BPM might be very frustrating in terms of enemy buffs (for reasons that you said).

maybe it's not so bad. but you are right in that the fundamental player/enemy asymmetry means finishing blow is rarely an ability i'll pick up myself, and dread seeing queued up by an enemy.

 

edit: not sure i have any better idea, except maybe to make it much more expensive and function more like a near-death instakiller (maybe the devastating upgrade would get the bonus damage it has now, but the base doesn't do anything extra, kinda like marux amanth), which would be harder for enemies to use to punish players while still making it more valuable for players.

Edited February 28, 2022 by thelee

[NotDumbEnough]

Some feedback for Hunter's Claw and upgrades: right now it doesn't feel too good. The problem is that it ramps up too slowly, I think. The ability is not much better than an autoattack other than interrupting on crit and having minor PL scaling. The end result is that it is much better to spam Accurate Wounding Shot instead for damage over time, up-front +20 accuracy, and PL scaling, rather than having to use Hunter's Claw 5 times first to achieve a similar effect (and on top of that, you have to try again if you miss, and it does not stack with other accuracy bonuses that your party may already have).

It is just not worth it unless you are fighting a megaboss. Otherwise spending 5+ bond and the first ~20 seconds of the fight getting the bonus is not as good as just having a priest use Devotions for the Faithful.

Edited February 28, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[Boeroer]

? Since Hunter's Claw and upgrades provide bonuses that stay active until the next rest, the idea is to use it in easier encounters with the same type of enemies - but tougher - you might fight in encounters a bit later (e.g. Splinter's Reef: load up Beast's Claw to the max in the tavern fight and enjoy +20 ACC and +20 deflection for the rest of the island: everything's a vessel there). 

It's not meant for gaining high bonuses instantly for the fight you are currently in. 

Because of that I think it's perfectly fine. 

Are you sure the race-specific ACC bonus doesn't stack with other active bonuses? It should at least stack with Devotions and of course all inherent ACC buffs of abilities sich as Accurate Wounding Shot - giving you +40 ACC in a biss fight instead of "only" +20. +20 Deflection aside which I think is awesome. 

[Elric Galad]

48 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

? Since Hunter's Claw and upgrades provide bonuses that stay active until the next rest, the idea is to use it in easier encounters with the same type of enemies - but tougher - you might fight in encounters a bit later (e.g. Splinter's Reef: load up Beast's Claw to the max in the tavern fight and enjoy +20 ACC and +20 deflection for the rest of the island: everything's a vessel there). 

It's not meant for gaining high bonuses instantly for the fight you are currently in. 

Because of that I think it's perfectly fine. 

Are you sure the race-specific ACC bonus doesn't stack with other active bonuses? It should at least stack with Devotions and of course all inherent ACC buffs of abilities sich as Accurate Wounding Shot - giving you +40 ACC in a biss fight instead of "only" +20. +20 Deflection aside which I think is awesome. 

He is speaking about BPM Hunter's Claw.

I changed it because Hunter's Claw is very broken by the Save/Reload bug.

BPM Hunter's Claw provides +2 Acc per strike up to +20, costs only 1 bond but lasts only until the end of battle.

I don't know. I spammed it a lot in my latest run. It worked fine, but of course was better for longer battle.

Upgrades are very good too since they basically doubles the effect.

It is a very grindy ability.

I would say 1 bond for a full attack (so slight DPS increase due to PL bonus) that provides +4 Acc /+ 4 all Def should be ok. Marked prey is 1 Bond for 10 Accuracy against 1 foe at a time and no one complains.

Probably not good for all fights (that's why Accurate Wounding Shot is for as the ultimate 1 ressource damages attack), but making Ranger into slowish boss fighter makes sense for "Hunter".

 

Edit : I might consider some minor buff to the attack such as adding +10 Acc. So a bit more DPS and misses less ?

Edited February 28, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Ahhh! Sorry!  

[Elric Galad]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:00 PM, thelee said:

good consideration, but have you tested any encounter with enemy rogue-likes? i feel like one of the ways that the fights don't get so insane is that the AI runs out of guile so it finally runs out of being able to use finishing blow, as otherwise anytime someone drops below 50% health can be a snowballing event if you don't have a quick heal response to an enemy rogue (especially ranged). this seems like one of the areas where the symmetry of BPM might be very frustrating in terms of enemy buffs (for reasons that you said).

maybe it's not so bad. but you are right in that the fundamental player/enemy asymmetry means finishing blow is rarely an ability i'll pick up myself, and dread seeing queued up by an enemy.

It's not so bad, I think. The assymetry between your party and foe is not as big as, for example, in JRPG. On one extremity of the spectrum, you have Kith encounters (and psuedo-Kiths, often class-based vessels or wilders) where foes are extremely dangerous and not so resistant (a bit like you), and on other extremity Megabosses. I think the main different is how much reliant you are on healing. That's why Mercy and Kindness is so much above the curve for your party (and is going to be nerfed next BPM version).

For Finishing Blow itself, I have 3 options :

 

- Buffing the 2 guiles ability (that would buff foe using it, but probably not to tremendous proportion). My issue is I have no "benchmark" for 2-ressource pure damage abilities. So the foes using it would be a bit more dangerous, but not to extreme proportion. I'm not sure about which parameter should be changed.

Note that eliminating blow is a mediocre upgrade for a 2-ressources ability in this case (Eliminating Blow causes a Tier 1 Shaken Affliction - description mentions Frightened and is misleading ; I will correct it anyway).

 

- Setting the ability to 1 guile but nerfing its effect. Something like +10 Acc, +25% damages, +1% damage per health loss, +2% damages per health loss for devastating blow (Skaen's Priest should get Devastating Blow then). This is easier to balance because Accurate Wounding Shot is my benchmark for 1-ressource damage effect. And because this would be strictly superior to Crippling Strike as a damage ability (except vs higher AR). So the foes using it could spam it more, but the spike would be lower, so more manageable for player in a certain way.

Note that eliminating blow is a good upgrade in this case (Tier 1 affliction 2.5m radius AoE but not to main target is okay for a 1-ressource ability upgrade).

 

Or adding a new effect :

On 2/28/2022 at 5:00 PM, thelee said:

edit: not sure i have any better idea, except maybe to make it much more expensive and function more like a near-death instakiller (maybe the devastating upgrade would get the bonus damage it has now, but the base doesn't do anything extra, kinda like marux amanth), which would be harder for enemies to use to punish players while still making it more valuable for players.

This idea has been discussed above. This was close from my initial idea The issue is that Near-Death destroy effect outright kills (not just knockdown) party members. That would be a big issue vs said foes.
EDIT : now I have a doubt. Is it also true when "gibs" are disabled ?
EDIT : instead of "destroy" vs Near Death, it could also be extreme damages vs Near Death, so foes would only knock you unconscious.

Still looking for other ideas.
Leaving apart Eliminating Blow, the ability would be easier to tweak if it had an effect distinct from damages.
Another issue is that SC Rogue already has a super good pure damage ability with Gambit... Having a distinct effect would be better to avoid this overlap (although limited to SC and Finishing Blow-line is still useful when low on Guile... but 2 Guiles is a big cost then)

 

Something to consider is that Dual Wield Full attacks are very good when accumulative damages modifier are stacked. The -58% from the inversed -35% damages becomes additive with +300-400ish % damages, so you're essentially getting twice single handed weapon damages as base damages.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

Personally, I think the problem lies not in Finishing Blow, but in Crippling Strike, Finishing Blow and Gambit overlapping too much in function: they are simply weapon abilities that deal more damage.

Maybe have Finishing Blow etc. deal a lengthy stun or terrify against Bloodied/Near Death targets?

[Elric Galad]

On 2/24/2022 at 12:16 PM, Constentin Lévine said:

In the Gamedata, it is taged as melee, like Minor Blight and Rot Skull. The differents Walls, Sunlance, Avenging Storm, Touch of Death, Pollen Patch, Concelhault crushing Doom, the frightened attack from Venombloom, and some others are also Melee. I tried these spells with the Shea's War Staff, they proc Combat Casting (concentration for 8s on critical hit in melee). Probably they interrupt on hit with Babyboar, I dont know.

Sorry, but I can't find where the Blackbow is tagged melee in Gamedata.

The Weapon Summon action is a melee component, but it is not a "true attack", just a component used to give Blackbow an action time.

The actual ranged attack is tagged ranged.

The spell you listed works with Instruments of Pain though. Sunlance range is hilarious with Instruments of Pain.

[Elric Galad]

gn.auranic_regenerate_spells.gamedatabundle.zip

Just a little change so Auranic regenerates a spell slot every 12s (BPM Nerf/optional package).

If your party gets Potion of Enlightenment to get a ressource every 30s, not reason for a Megaboss to run out of ability.

If someone wants to try.

[Testlum]

Speaking of rogues, what do you think of the fact that Persistent Distraction can single-handedly trigger Deathblows? The whole point of having Deathblows be more harder to trigger than Sneak Attack seems pointless when you can fulfill both requirements with one passive.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Testlum

[Elric Galad]

10 hours ago, Testlum said:

Speaking of rogues, what do you think of the fact that Persistent Distraction can single-handedly trigger Deathblows? The whole point of having Deathblows be more harder to trigger than Sneak Attack seems pointless when you can fulfill both requirements with one passive.

Yeah, I agree this design isn't that good. But I don't know what could be changed because it comes from the basic principle of PER afflictions.

EDIT : Unless going for something like -10 Deflection (or -5 all defenses, closer from PoE1 to avoid too good synergy with Gambit) instead of an affliction ? A nerf and a buff because as a passive, it would stack well (and stacks with Blinding Strike). But that's quite a radical change so I would only proceed if public acclamation.

 

Finishing Blow & Upgrades :

Ok, new try, base ideas :

- I'm going to remove the +50% unconditional damages. It's better to add more damages based on remaining health. +50% damages translates on average to +1% damages per 1% health loss (up to +100%). It's good to make the ability more focused, since, as pointed by @NotDumbEnough, there are other Rogue abilities doing good damages.

- I'm coming back to my idea of % chance of instant killing anything Near Death. But instead of using a "Destroy" component, I will add "fatal damages" (10000 raw damages) to avoid party members to be erased from existence by those skeleton archers.

 

So, with some other minor tweaks, it leads to :

 

Finishing Blow :
- 2 Guiles
- +10 Accuracy
- +3% damages per 1% of health loss (up to +300%)
- 25% chance (per swing, bullet, etc...) of dealing fatal damages to Near Death foes 

 

Eliminating Blow :
- 2 Guiles
- +10 Accuracy
- +3% damages per 1% of health loss (up to +300%)
- 25% chance (per swing, bullet, etc...) of dealing fatal damages to Near Death foes 
- 2.5m radius Shaken for 12s, except to main target (no change, except fixing the description that mentions frightened)

 

Devastating Blow :
- 2 Guiles
- +10 Accuracy
- +4% damages per 1% of health loss (up to +400%)
- 50% chance (per swing, bullet, etc...) of dealing fatal damages to Near Death foes 

 

Infestation of Maggots :

The damages seem lowish and too conditional (5 raw/damages per tick vs blooded, it is still less than Swarm of Insects)

I'm going to change this to 15 raws damages per tick x percentage of health loss. 7.5 raw damages per tick vs blooded is enough. The AoE is good even if the duration is lower than Tier 2 Swarm of Insects and it has no side effect.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Testlum]

Honestly, I was considering whether I wanted to go through the effort of replacing the Flanked portion of Perception Afflictions too. It would also remove Streetfighters being able to Flank themselves for a massive powerboost via blunderbusses. I sketched out something like this:

Distracted: -5 PER, +25% Recovery

Disoriented: -5 PER, +50% Recovery, 25% Hit-to-Graze

Blinded: -5 PER, +100% Recovery, 25% Hit-to-Graze, -50% Range

Still, you're right about it being quite a big change. Not to mention, it's going to take some work going through all the StatusEffects.

[Constentin Lévine]

21 minutes ago, Testlum said:

Honestly, I was considering whether I wanted to go through the effort of replacing the Flanked portion of Perception Afflictions too. It would also remove Streetfighters being able to Flank themselves for a massive powerboost via blunderbusses. I sketched out something like this:

Distracted: -5 PER, +25% Recovery

Disoriented: -5 PER, +50% Recovery, 25% Hit-to-Graze

Blinded: -5 PER, +100% Recovery, 25% Hit-to-Graze, -50% Range

Still, you're right about it being quite a big change. Not to mention, it's going to take some work going through all the StatusEffects.

But that make sense to me that a perception affliction give a penalty to Reflex ( -5 per) and Deflection ; if you are distracted, disoriented or blinded, that should be difficult to fully spare the direct attacks, I think. I'm agree for Deathblow, except for debonaire, it is maybe to easy. But changing the Afflictions's status effects is really gamechanging, the game is consistent because of this system, among others.

[Elric Galad]

Changing an affliction has too much impact on the whole balance.

But now that I'm thinking about it, tweaking Persistent distraction to something else than distracted is very tempting :

- it makes Rogue a bit more tactical to play since you can't just engage and get full bonus.

- it makes Blinding Strike AND SMOKE CLOUD line much less redundant.

- It makes Sap (and various strikes) much more useful as a 30s Deathblow enabler...

 

Persistent Distraction could become -5 all defenses. This would be universally good without risk of breaking the balance.

[NotDumbEnough]

I feel that finishing blow should instakill near death on crit or something, rather than a % chance for any connecting attacks, otherwise I feel that it makes abilities like Detonate, Boil their Flesh from Skin to Bone, etc. too redundant when you can just have a rogue dual wield blunderbusses.

 

Edit: I also wonder if it would interact poorly with Pain Link (i.e. enemies shooting your party member with Pain Link) or Blood Ward/Chanter's Old Siec etc.

Edited March 5, 2022 by NotDumbEnough