Balancing a shield effect

[coralzombie]

Looking for informed opinions to assist me in balancing shields I created.

To get around the problem of trying to create a better bashing shield I have created  the following. Obviously these will have more enchantments but for now these are what they do.

 

1. large shield -  100% chance damage enemy in melee whenever the enemy is hit or crit by wielder.  Currently only works with Large shield modal on.

damage is 10 to 10  pierce / corrode  keyword to plant and decay. It benefits from Spirit of Decay for Penetration currently. No testing for plant keyword is done yet.  Damage scales with might.

Even at 10 damage this is a pretty strong effect.  Basically each animated attack results in 2 separately rolled attacks , main hand and shield.

Other:

2. large shield -  100% chance damage enemy in melee whenever the wielder is hit or crit.  Same effect as above,

 

What do you think these damage values should be? Should the be changed to %  / activate or left as is? What should the keywords be?  Should the modal be left on or taken off? 

 

Also, how would I go about testing plant keyword?

 

Looking for Ideas to make a couple more shields with.

Any input is appreciated!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by coralzombie

[Elric Galad]

Be careful about PEN and Acc.
Passive / Weapon effects don't benefit from PEN and Acc scaling.
You can make an equivalent to weapon quality, but it won't be upgraded by quality upgrades, so you may have to create separate upgrades... but I have already told you.

The closest item from what you describe in case #1 is Aldris Blade :
https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Aldris+Blade+of+Captain+Crow
It adds 10 damages but only on Crit and is considered as a good weapon.

So for proc on Hit, 10 damages is certainly too much.
You're basically adding base damages to an Attack roll, so the value shall be interpreted as a multiplicative % increase. It is close to a Lash effect, but will be better with fast weapons.
Lash effects are around 15-20% in general, so the right value for a 100% bash should be around 2-5 damages due to not benefitting from weapon quality % damages (or decrease the proc chance for higher damages, or apply it only on crit).

In any case it shall be lower than the benefits of Dual Wielding (-30% recovery).


For #2, the closest thing is flame shield. That's a Tier IV spell but it does a comfortable 8-12 damages, scaling. It applies on all damages, not only Hit and Crit.
You shield probably shouldn't be as effective as a Tier IV spell, but Something around 5 damages should be Okay.

[Noqn]

@Elric Galad and @coralzombie, I found an universal fix to Shield Bash Quality Scaling, would you be interested in merging it into your own mods?

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/425

It's done through adding new status effects to each of the Shield Quality enchantments, basically copies of corresponding Weapon Quality enchantments but with HideFromUI set to true so that they they don't clutter ordinary shields. (Ordinary shields are for that matter unaffected due to how AttackFilter Source: "ParentEquippable" works.)

I'm really happy about how seamless it turned out!

[Elric Galad]

4 minutes ago, Noqn said:

@Elric Galad and @coralzombie, I found an universal fix to Shield Bash Quality Scaling, would you be interested in merging it into your own mods?

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/425

It's done through adding new status effects to each of the Shield Quality enchantments, basically copies of corresponding Weapon Quality enchantments but with HideFromUI set to true so that they they don't clutter ordinary shields. (Ordinary shields are for that matter unaffected due to how AttackFilter Source: "ParentEquippable" works.)

I'm really happy about how seamless it turned out!

I would like to use it as part of my mod, I think. This would probably require to tweak the stats of the shield again (possibly, err, nerfing base damage)

Hum, is there any side effect on Tuotilo's Palm ? I fear it will receive double scaling from your mod and scaling fist bonus...

[Noqn]

1 minute ago, Elric Galad said:

Hum, is there any side effect on Tuotilo's Palm ? I fear it will receive double scaling from your mod and scaling fist bonus...

Didn't think about equipping it on a monk, crap.

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Noqn said:

Didn't think about equipping it on a monk, crap.

I feel almost sorry for thinking about it 

[Elric Galad]

OK, your mod is probably the cleanest way to do. There should be a way to prevent this side effect. I will try to think about it. But tomorrow...

[Noqn]

At max Transcendent Suffering and Tuotilo at Legendary:

Tuotilo's Palm: 19 - 24
Fists: 25 - 34

Which is reasonable.
On the other hand, Tuotilo has 15 Accuracy and 4 Penetration more than Fists. (OUCH!)

Not as seamless as I first thought...
But yeah, it's adjustable. On the top of my head, simply decreasing its base Pen by 4 and base Acc by 15 should do it. Would be a very small and temporary nerf compared to vanilla since it starts at Superb.

[Boeroer]

But then it would be bad for everybody who doesn't use Monastic Unarmed Training or Transcendent Suffering, wouldn't it?

[Noqn]

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

But then it would be bad for everybody who doesn't use Monastic Unarmed Training or Transcendent Suffering, wouldn't it?

Only by 1 Pen and 3 Accuracy until it's been upgraded to Legendary, then it would reach vanilla stats.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Noqn

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Noqn said:

At max Transcendent Suffering and Tuotilo at Legendary:

Tuotilo's Palm: 19 - 24
Fists: 25 - 34

Which is reasonable.
On the other hand, Tuotilo has 15 Accuracy and 4 Penetration more than Fists. (OUCH!)

Not as seamless as I first thought...
But yeah, it's adjustable. On the top of my head, simply decreasing its base Pen by 4 and base Acc by 15 should do it. Would be a very small and temporary nerf compared to vanilla since it starts at Superb.

Well, I don't really want to change how Tuotilio's World currently. It's quite balances. Do you think it would be possible to add some keyword to your mod so it dors not apply to fist-tagged attack ? I might try it on my side.

[Noqn]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, I don't really want to change how Tuotilio's World currently. It's quite balances. Do you think it would be possible to add some keyword to your mod so it dors not apply to fist-tagged attack ? I might try it on my side.

Sorry, I should've clarified.

-15 Accuracy and -4 Penetration would be to counterbalance the bonuses from Legendary Quality.
Since it starts at Superb it would end up with just -1 Penetration and -3 Accuracy compared to vanilla when the Player fist picks it up, and return to vanilla Accuracy and Penetration once upgraded to Legendary. The only difference at that point would be the new +60% damage bonus, but it'd still be significantly lower than Fists.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Noqn

[Noqn]

I checked and it seems to be possible to filter away Unarmed-tagged shields if you would prefer without the damage bonus from quality!

Edited May 8, 2020 by Noqn

[Elric Galad]

9 minutes ago, Noqn said:

I checked and it seems to be possible to filter away Unarmed-tagged shields if you would prefer without the damage bonus from quality!

Yes, if you can do this for the Quality bonuses. As I said, I would prefer not changing the way Tuotilio's work. I will directly add your mod file to my mod (with credits) and tweak the shields stats accordingly.

[Noqn]

Here are the files with Unarmed filter and without Tuotilo adjustments:

Shield Bashy.zip

I'll upload them as an alternative download to Nexus later.

It might be worth including the vanilla values of Tuotilo's attack in your mod:

{
	"GameDataObjects": [
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackMeleeGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
			"DebugName": "Tuotilos_Palm_Melee_Monk",
			"ID": "5edb99ed-2fc9-482a-869e-c23eb50da841",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"AccuracyBonus": 0,
					"PenetrationRating": 7
				}
			]
		}
	]
}

(Just in case someone uses the current main version of my mod and you want to override the adjustments I included.)

Edited May 8, 2020 by Noqn

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Noqn said:

Here are the files with Unarmed filter and without Tuotilo adjustments:

Shield Bashy.zip 3.48 kB · 0 downloads

I'll upload them as an alternative download to Nexus later.

It might be worth including the vanilla values of Tuotilo's attack in your mod:

{
	"GameDataObjects": [
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackMeleeGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
			"DebugName": "Tuotilos_Palm_Melee_Monk",
			"ID": "5edb99ed-2fc9-482a-869e-c23eb50da841",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"AccuracyBonus": 0,
					"PenetrationRating": 7
				}
			]
		}
	]
}

(Just in case someone uses the current main version of my mod and you want to override the adjustments I included.)

Perfect, I'll include this in next package.

I will tune down the bashing shield damage to normalized 7-10 damages 7 PEN (from 13-16 damages 7 PEN for a 1-hander not fast). Dual Type of damages too, and fire keyword for Magran's Blessing.

That's the same reduction factor that Tuotilo 8-10 damages 7 PEN (from 14-16 damages 7 PEN for fists).

[Kaylon]

Big shields should do more damage or else small shields will be strictly better for bashing because no accuracy loss. 

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Kaylon said:

Big shields should do more damage or else small shields will be strictly better for bashing because no accuracy loss. 

Well... I don't agree with that. Bigger shields are better at defending. You trade Accuracy for Deflection. It's like saying big Shields should provide a bonus to caster cause acc malus make them worse at casting.

[coralzombie]

On 5/7/2020 at 2:04 AM, Elric Galad said:

Be careful about PEN and Acc.
Passive / Weapon effects don't benefit from PEN and Acc scaling.
You can make an equivalent to weapon quality, but it won't be upgraded by quality upgrades, so you may have to create separate upgrades... but I have already told you.

The closest item from what you describe in case #1 is Aldris Blade :
https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Aldris+Blade+of+Captain+Crow
It adds 10 damages but only on Crit and is considered as a good weapon.

So for proc on Hit, 10 damages is certainly too much.
You're basically adding base damages to an Attack roll, so the value shall be interpreted as a multiplicative % increase. It is close to a Lash effect, but will be better with fast weapons.
Lash effects are around 15-20% in general, so the right value for a 100% bash should be around 2-5 damages due to not benefitting from weapon quality % damages (or decrease the proc chance for higher damages, or apply it only on crit).

In any case it shall be lower than the benefits of Dual Wielding (-30% recovery).


For #2, the closest thing is flame shield. That's a Tier IV spell but it does a comfortable 8-12 damages, scaling. It applies on all damages, not only Hit and Crit.
You shield probably shouldn't be as effective as a Tier IV spell, but Something around 5 damages should be Okay.

After testing the shield damage proc PEN does scale with level. Also scales with passive abilities such as Spirit of Decay. 

 

Currently a level 17 character gets the following PEN

7 base

2 level

1 Spirit of Decay

 

Damage amount scales with Might

23 might adds +39% damage after roll

Will adjust any passive abilities accordingly based on what you have added to your MOD

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by coralzombie

[coralzombie]

On 5/7/2020 at 5:17 PM, Noqn said:

@Elric Galad and @coralzombie, I found an universal fix to Shield Bash Quality Scaling, would you be interested in merging it into your own mods?

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/425

It's done through adding new status effects to each of the Shield Quality enchantments, basically copies of corresponding Weapon Quality enchantments but with HideFromUI set to true so that they they don't clutter ordinary shields. (Ordinary shields are for that matter unaffected due to how AttackFilter Source: "ParentEquippable" works.)

I'm really happy about how seamless it turned out!

I will send you a completed layout for a bashing shield I created and maybe you can see why it is not working. 

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, coralzombie said:

I will send you a completed layout for a bashing shield I created and maybe you can see why it is not working. 

I don't know, but Noqn's mod World perfectly fine for me.

Note that bonus apply also to Shield abilities, but I Guess it's the same for weapon Quality.

[Noqn]

8 hours ago, coralzombie said:

I will send you a completed layout for a bashing shield I created and maybe you can see why it is not working. 

Change the "$type" parameter of Shield_test_bashing from Game.GameData.EquippableGameData to Game.GameData.WeaponGameData and it works!

Edited May 9, 2020 by Noqn

[coralzombie]

4 hours ago, Noqn said:

Change the "$type" parameter of Shield_test_bashing from Game.GameData.EquippableGameData to Game.GameData.WeaponGameData and it works!

Huzzah!!!!!   It does work!  Thank you very much.

[coralzombie]

With the Noqn mod here are the base damage values for the vanilla bashing shields

Best Defense  (small shield legendary level)  damage 7 - 10

Magran's Blessing (Medium shield exceptional level)  11 - 15

I have the version that skips Tuotilo's Palm which is also at 7 -10.  

Is it somehow filtering out the shield " best defense" ?  

 

Or perhaps it cannot apply the relevant enchantment level to a shield that is by default at that enchantment level.  I noticed with my shield it did not apply the exceptional level enchantment because it was by default exceptional level but when I upgraded it to the next level it did receive the correct scaling.

 

Pretty sure I need to combine what Elric Galad is making with your Mod to effect vanilla shields correctly.

 

Edit:    I think what I need is the damage and pen values each type of shield should have at each enchantment level. Will Pm Elric

Edited May 9, 2020 by coralzombie

[Noqn]

41 minutes ago, coralzombie said:

Best Defense  (small shield legendary level)  damage 7 - 10

Is it somehow filtering out the shield " best defense" ?  

 

Quality enchantments don't increase the base damage if that's what you're asking? The Best Defense works as it should for me:

 

43 minutes ago, coralzombie said:

Or perhaps it cannot apply the relevant enchantment level to a shield that is by default at that enchantment level.  I noticed with my shield it did not apply the exceptional level enchantment because it was by default exceptional level but when I upgraded it to the next level it did receive the correct scaling.

Strange, could you send me the gamedata text?

50 minutes ago, coralzombie said:

Edit:    I think what I need is the damage and pen values each type of shield should have at each enchantment level. Will Pm Elric

Fine: +1 Pen, +4 Acc, +15% Damage
Exceptional: +2 Pen, +8 Acc, +30% Damage
Superb: +3 Pen, +12 Acc, +45% Damage
Legendary: +4 Pen, +15 Acc, + 60% Damage
Mythic: +5 Pen, +18 Acc, +75% Damage

You can see the bonus by hovering over the stats in the inspection menu.