Not New, But Not Good

[Spellshade]

So I've played Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire multiple times each, but I wouldn't say I've improved as a player much in doing so, other than learning how to optimize my player character's build better.

I'm looking to build a multiclass my Rogue and I'm debating between Cipher (for the roleplaying and dialogue advantages it sometimes grants you), and Fighter (for Constant Recovery in fights to make the Rogue a sturdier off-tank).

My question is, do I need to lean toward combat efficiency to the detriment of roleplay if I crank up the difficulty? I've played on Normal with Critical Path upscaling until now, I'd like to move up to Veteran. Any thoughts on what build I should lean toward and if I need to pre-plan my build in more detail would be welcome.

[thelee]

3 hours ago, Spellshade said:

My question is, do I need to lean toward combat efficiency to the detriment of roleplay if I crank up the difficulty? I've played on Normal with Critical Path upscaling until now, I'd like to move up to Veteran. Any thoughts on what build I should lean toward and if I need to pre-plan my build in more detail would be welcome.

honestly, i always build sub-optimal parties just so that i can fit some role-playing concept or general party theme, and i can still clear PotD with upscaling and challenges on. There's a steep learning curve to do so, but compared to D&D, Deadfire is a pretty forgiving system. It's a little bit less forgiving than PoE1 (there are definitely bad multiclasses and bad choices to make), but still pretty forgiving.

 

I think you'll be happier with cipher/rogue, so go with that. It's honestly a pretty good multiclass anyway, so you're not missing out on combat efficiency - the sneak attack damage will really supercharge your focus generation, and your cipher powers will help ensure you keep sneak attack up without spending precious rogue ability points. I'm sure there are mindstalker experts who can chime in more. If you feel like you need more survivability, there are many ways to do that (potions+alchemy, using rogue invisibility to escape the heat for a while, using a trickster to cast mirror image + shield + riposte for temporary god mode, bringing along a druid or priest or paladin in your party, etc.). So don't feel like you need to multiclass with a fighter just for the constant recovery.

Edited February 12, 2020 by thelee

[djinnxy]

It helps to plan your build but unless you make a critical mistake at level one you can respec. IMO just go up to PotD especially if you play with a party. Pay close attention to armor and the weapons/ spells you need to penetrate, Also make note of any buffs debuffs. In PotD it is critical to get the buffs and notice which debuffs you can affect the enemy with. There are min max builds for both rogue cipher and rogue fighter that you can pull ideas from for what is effective. I would never suggest being unoriginal though. Put your own twist in everything.

edit: I'd agree with thelee that rogue cipher is a little more fun to play, but more challenging to get the right combo of skills to be effective. It shouldn't matter much in veteran though.

Edited February 12, 2020 by djinnxy

[Spellshade]

Alright, I'll go with Rogue-Cipher for this run and I'll try it on PotD, it's not as if I'm locked into it once I start anyway. I appreciate the input.

I do think the Rogue is kind of a squishy target for the AI in these games, since your tanks can't force enemies to attack them over the DPS most of the time, so I'll have to take a more active role probably, start micromanaging a little more the other characters in my party.

Edit: Oh, and I rarely pick a subclass on Rogue, I felt like the detriments outweigh the positives, but maybe I should give it a chance this go.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Spellshade

[Boeroer]

Rogues are not as squishy in Deadfire as they were in PoE by the way. 

Mindstalkers are pretty fun.

One of my most beloved things with a Mindstalker is Debonaire/Beguiler who can charm enemies and then get a 100% crit conversion when casting Disintegrate on them without flipping them back to hostile mode. Kind of special class combo though. But the Charm/Disintegrate trick works with any Cipher - without the crit conversion then of course. Throw in an occasional Psychovampiric Shield to lower strong enemies' Resolve (prolongs Charm & Disintegrate a lot).

Rogue/Soulblade with high deflection and some ACC debuffs on enemies with Whispers of the Endless Paths (for high AoE raw damage and a combo of Offensive Parry + Riposte which both generate focus) or Sun & Moon (first flail head dumps raw damage, second head already regains focus) works very well, too.

And Ascendant/Streetfighter with blunderbuss (especially hand mortars) is powerful due to Powder Burns (Blunderbuss modal) triggering the Streetfighter's "Heating Up" passive all the time.

I guess Assassin/Cipher could profit a lot from the enormous ACC buff from stealth/invisibility which would help to apply spells more reliably or to get more focus right at the start of combat (or both). But I never played that combo.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Boeroer

[danielbda]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:16 AM, Boeroer said:

Rogues are not as squishy in Deadfire as they were in PoE by the way. 

Mindstalkers are pretty fun.

One of my most beloved things with a Mindstalker is Debonaire/Beguiler who can charm enemies and then get a 100% crit conversion when casting Disintegrate on them without flipping them back to hostile mode. Kind of special class combo though. But the Charm/Disintegrate trick works with any Cipher - without the crit conversion then of course. Throw in an occasional Psychovampiric Shield to lower strong enemies' Resolve (prolongs Charm & Disintegrate a lot).

Rogue/Soulblade with high deflection and some ACC debuffs on enemies with Whispers of the Endless Paths (for high AoE raw damage and a combo of Offensive Parry + Riposte which both generate focus) or Sun & Moon (first flail head dumps raw damage, second head already regains focus) works very well, too.

And Ascendant/Streetfighter with blunderbuss (especially hand mortars) is powerful due to Powder Burns (Blunderbuss modal) triggering the Streetfighter's "Heating Up" passive all the time.

I guess Assassin/Cipher could profit a lot from the enormous ACC buff from stealth/invisibility which would help to apply spells more reliably or to get more focus right at the start of combat (or both). But I never played that combo.

Assassin/Ascendant seems broken OP by endgame. Start combat by shooting a mythical arquebus point blank, twice -> reach Ascendant status -> cast Ancestor's Memory ->  invis and Assassinate again -> repeat

 

Probably what I'll try on a next playthrough.

Edited February 18, 2020 by danielbda

[danielbda]

Both multis have very powerful builds that will work on PotD upscaled. You don't need to trade power for flavor here, just have both.

Edited February 18, 2020 by danielbda

[Boeroer]

Why should Assassin/Ascendant be specifially broken? Because of the bit higher damage from stealth?  You'll get your first fill of focus quickly but honestly you can do so with a lot of class combos as long as you pick an AoE weapon like mortars or a rod (keep in mind first recovery from stealth atttacks has a 80% bonus). In my opinion Helwalker or Berserker are even more powerful in combination with an Ascendant once you reach PL 7. Because once you are ascendend you want a) the ascension to last as long as possible and b) you want to cast as fast as possible. Ascendant/Streetfighter with blunderbuss (Kitchen Stove or mortars) is also right in that alley.

A combo that I really like with Cipher is Forbidden Fist. Even if the Forbidden Fist ability doesn't generate focus it enfeebles the enemy which makes Disintegrate last 50% longer. Combine with sky-high INT from Duality of Mortal Presence and then Body Blows, Enervating Blows and Stunning Surge and you can also crit with your Disintegrat easily, adding another 50% duration. Even on bosses with stellar Resolve you can first cast Psychovampiric Shield to take away 10 RES. It is a very useful combo for the late game. Ascendant works nicely as well but I prefer Beguiler. Best thing is that charmed enemies don't flip back if you hit them with Disintegrate. If you also have a Ranger in the party (Takedown Combo) the Disintegrate damage will also get +100% bonus (Takedown Combo will not get removed by Disintegrate sice there's no damagig hit roll - yet it will profit with every tick).

While we are at Assassin and late-game powerplay: A funny and powerful combo with Assassin is Bloodmage + Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure. CC spells as well as all "Wall" spells don't remove the invisibility from that spell.  Also spells that apply a "pure" DoT effect without initial damage (Concelhaupt's Corrosive Siphon, Corrosive Skin, NOT Necrotic Lance) will not remove it. At least they didn't in the past... You get +PEN and +ACC with all spells that don't do damaging hit rolls and stuff like Wall of Many Colors without becoming visible. It's like cheat mode. 
You can also skip Assassin and use Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure with Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon & Skin (you won't become visible either while upholding invisibility with Wall of Draining, healing from Blood Sacrifice with Corrosive Siphon, killing with Corrosive Skin). Enemies be like "Huh? Why is Rudy melting like wax? And Gustav and Klaus, too? Ahhh!" 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

9 hours ago, danielbda said:

Assassin/Ascendant seems broken OP by endgame. Start combat by shooting a mythical arquebus point blank, twice -> reach Ascendant status -> cast Ancestor's Memory ->  invis and Assassinate again -> repeat

 

Probably what I'll try on a next playthrough.

I agree with Boeroer (duh!). Yes, you can do that. Or skip Assassin and instant ascend with Kitchen Stove Thunderous Report. With a monk Int bonus, the ridiculous effect cone reaches like half the screen.

Or with Seeker's Fang rapier Spider Flurry (if the enemies are nicely bunched up).

 

In fact my Transcendant dual wields both => 2x instant Ascension. Add some Salvations of Time, and you rarely need more...

 

The Assassin shenanigans are kinda cool when you play solo. But in a party, its not so convenient IMO. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Haplok

[Haplok]

On 2/13/2020 at 1:51 AM, Spellshade said:

Alright, I'll go with Rogue-Cipher for this run and I'll try it on PotD, it's not as if I'm locked into it once I start anyway. I appreciate the input.

I do think the Rogue is kind of a squishy target for the AI in these games, since your tanks can't force enemies to attack them over the DPS most of the time, so I'll have to take a more active role probably, start micromanaging a little more the other characters in my party.

Edit: Oh, and I rarely pick a subclass on Rogue, I felt like the detriments outweigh the positives, but maybe I should give it a chance this go.

You should always pick Trickster at least, IMO. What he gives up (10% Sneak damage) is really miniscule compared to what he gains (very strong defensive buffs, plus some less awesome offensive powers).

Edited February 18, 2020 by Haplok

[thelee]

16 hours ago, danielbda said:

Assassin/Ascendant seems broken OP by endgame. Start combat by shooting a mythical arquebus point blank, twice -> reach Ascendant status -> cast Ancestor's Memory ->  invis and Assassinate again -> repeat

are you sure this actually works? Ancestor's Memory at last check can only be targeted on allies not yourself. So this could work for two separate characters, but not one multiclass. (And really, anyone plus ancestor's memory is powerful, I don't think assassin is particularly any more powerful than e.g. a priest being able to spam BDD and Salvation of Time on everyone.)

[danielbda]

29 minutes ago, thelee said:

are you sure this actually works? Ancestor's Memory at last check can only be targeted on allies not yourself. So this could work for two separate characters, but not one multiclass. (And really, anyone plus ancestor's memory is powerful, I don't think assassin is particularly any more powerful than e.g. a priest being able to spam BDD and Salvation of Time on everyone.)

Now I'm not sure. It was one of the builds for inifinite assassinte that I devised, the other being multi with tactician and exploiting Smoke Cloud to make everyone distracted and trigger Brilliant.

The Mindstalker one seemed better because there is no RNG involved with enemies being immune or having very high defenses.

Edited February 18, 2020 by danielbda