[MECHANICS] Various Testing

[Waski]

1 hour ago, dgray62 said:

@Waski, am I correct in assuming that you use Mental Binding so frequently because (1) it doesn't break your invisibility and (2) to immobilize foes to keep them in place to be drained? I never used that power much but I can see in your video that I undervalued it.

exactly, otherwise I struggled to hit with WoD with all battlefield moving

[thelee]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:23 AM, NotDumbEnough said:

Does anyone know the recovery penalty for moving while in recovery? Rangers get Shot on the Run but I'm not sure how it compares with simply standing still while recovering.

 

I'm also not 100% sure if reloading progress is saved if you stop it and do something else. i.e. if you spend 3 seconds out of a 5 second reload actually reloading, then stop and cast a spell, do you now need to start over and reload for 5 seconds or just 2 seconds?

i did some testing to confirm some of my suspicions. here's what i've found:

• ranged movement recovery penalty only applies while moving (correction of earlier thing i said)
• ranged movement recovery penalty is +100% recovery time
• shot on the run does benefit from inversions and will completely cancel the recovery penalty suffered while moving (edit: so, makes no difference whether you stand still or move as a ranger with this. could be pretty handy for kiting)
• reload time is not affected by ranged movement-recovery penalty, instead it's paused
• your reload progress is saved if you interrupt it, so if you run around for a while, your remaining reload time should pick up back from where it left off
• however, in normal circumstances it appears there is a minimum reload time of what appears to be ~2.5s for most weapons, but arquebus appears to have a slightly faster minimum reload time of ~2s. so, as i mentioned in an earlier post, if you perpetually interrupt your reload, then you'll never be able to fire again since the animation needs to fully complete.
• however with firearms, there's a moment during the reload animation when you **** the gun (you can hear a very slight 'click' when this happens) and if you interrupt the reload at this point and then resume attack you bypass the entirety of the reload time (including the remainder of the reload time that you should've seen) and go straight to attack. [edit: lol erroneous forum censorship strikes again! "when you c.o.c.k the gun"]
  • if Deadfire was somehow more of a twitch-y game like DotA or a fighting game, this means there's actually a "reload cancel" optimization you could do. in practice, i don't think this is worth the micromanagement since it's like tenths of a second in savings which, while possibly a substantial % increase, is extremely annoying to keep track of over an entire fight.
• i say "normal circumstances" b.c. if your natural reload time is shorter than the minimum reload time, then it uses your natural reload time (possible with dual-wielding, high dex, pistol modal)
• i know there's a further absolute minimum reload time (it's why one of the enchantments on a gun that clears recovery doesn't work) but with some simple testing with a console i wasn't able to find what that was (i got down to 1.5s and still obeyed the 1.5s recovery time instead of being capped)

Edited May 20, 2022 by thelee

[NotDumbEnough]

Some details I noticed about Nimble/Swift:

1. You only get the stride boost if you actually see an enemy. If your allies are engaging enemies around a corner and you can't see them, you have to round the corner before picking up your speed.

2. On my old garbage computer I noticed that my characters would twitch back and forth while running very fast under the effects of Nimble/Swift while this is not the case on my current decent computer. Might be that frame rate or something influences your character while at high stride rates.

[NotDumbEnough]

16 hours ago, thelee said:

i did some testing to confirm some of my suspicions. here's what i've found:

• ranged movement recovery penalty only applies while moving (correction of earlier thing i said)
• ranged movement recovery penalty is +100% recovery time
• shot on the run does benefit from inversions and will completely cancel the recovery penalty suffered while moving (edit: so, makes no difference whether you stand still or move as a ranger with this. could be pretty handy for kiting)
• reload time is not affected by ranged movement-recovery penalty, instead it's paused
• your reload progress is saved if you interrupt it, so if you run around for a while, your remaining reload time should pick up back from where it left off
• however, in normal circumstances it appears there is a minimum reload time of what appears to be ~2.5s for most weapons, but arquebus appears to have a slightly faster minimum reload time of ~2s. so, as i mentioned in an earlier post, if you perpetually interrupt your reload, then you'll never be able to fire again since the animation needs to fully complete.
• however with firearms, there's a moment during the reload animation when you **** the gun (you can hear a very slight 'click' when this happens) and if you interrupt the reload at this point and then resume attack you bypass the entirety of the reload time (including the remainder of the reload time that you should've seen) and go straight to attack. [edit: lol erroneous forum censorship strikes again! "when you c.o.c.k the gun"]
  • if Deadfire was somehow more of a twitch-y game like DotA or a fighting game, this means there's actually a "reload cancel" optimization you could do. in practice, i don't think this is worth the micromanagement since it's like tenths of a second in savings which, while possibly a substantial % increase, is extremely annoying to keep track of over an entire fight.
• i say "normal circumstances" b.c. if your natural reload time is shorter than the minimum reload time, then it uses your natural reload time (possible with dual-wielding, high dex, pistol modal)
• i know there's a further absolute minimum reload time (it's why one of the enchantments on a gun that clears recovery doesn't work) but with some simple testing with a console i wasn't able to find what that was (i got down to 1.5s and still obeyed the 1.5s recovery time instead of being capped)

To add to this, the Chanter's delay in chanting while recovering from an invocation seems to be independent of the movement recovery penalty. i.e. if you use an invocation and immediately start running, you'll begin chanting before you finish recovering. Not sure if heavy armor/blinded or other recovery penalties influence the chant delay.

 

Edit:

The delay before you restart chanting seems to be influenced by dexterity, but not armor penalty or movement recovery penalty or the fast recovery you get if you use an invocation out of stealth. Haven't tested disoriented/blinded, recovery bonuses, action speed bonuses and other recovery penalties like Streetfighter or Patinated Plate.

Edit 2:

Blind/Disorient does not influence the delay.

Edited May 21, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[NotDumbEnough]

I've noticed in the past that when your character recovers from a constitution affliction, their max health goes back up but their current health does not. On the other hand, when they lose constitution such as through an affliction, their hp percentage stays the same. This means that even if you take no damage, if you gain and lose a constitution affliction, you still effectively lose health.

I wonder if it would be possible to actually drain enemies to death with this mechanic. If a Troubadour continually sings the chant the causes Weakened, is there any way to make sure the enemy is afflicted for less than 3 seconds?

[thelee]

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I've noticed in the past that when your character recovers from a constitution affliction, their max health goes back up but their current health does not. On the other hand, when they lose constitution such as through an affliction, their hp percentage stays the same. This means that even if you take no damage, if you gain and lose a constitution affliction, you still effectively lose health.

Hmmm, are you sure about this? I know when you lose a constitution affliction outside of combat, you don’t retain current health % and have to regen the missing health, but I feel like you retain current health % during combat (I see enemies sometimes go back up a health category when recovering from an affliction, which appears to be based on their “base” max health).

[Constentin Lévine]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

but I feel like you retain current health % during combat

I think the same because when switching and switching back to a weapon with a Con bonus, I regain my life progressively (but quickly because AI switching), even while enfeebled or whatever else.

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, thelee said:

Hmmm, are you sure about this? I know when you lose a constitution affliction outside of combat, you don’t retain current health % and have to regen the missing health, but I feel like you retain current health % during combat (I see enemies sometimes go back up a health category when recovering from an affliction, which appears to be based on their “base” max health).

I did a thread or somewhat lenghty post(?) about that stuff some time ago (I guess way over a year ago) that showcased this a bit with evervating blows. This might make CON afflictions nastier than one would expect. They might help you bring down an enemies' HP more quickly because of this behavior. I'll try to find the old post where I did some tests and link it here.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Found it:

 

[NotDumbEnough]

 

 

The Katrenn fight is much easier on rainy nights. Katrenn and the constructs take cover from rain like other NPCs, and it is possible to kill Katrenn without aggroing all of the constructs.

[thelee]

On 5/22/2022 at 3:11 AM, Boeroer said:

Found it:

 

hoo boy, that thread brought back some confused memories.

 

iirc, your numbers are like that because you have an amulet of health? the game doesn't do math correctly when restoring health with amulet of health?

[NotDumbEnough]

I think (Greater) Amulet of Health and Tough are flat max hp bonuses. They give you the same value regardless of your constitution, which is probably why the numbers are weird.

I doubt most enemies have flat hp modifiers so a test without Tough or Amulet of Health would probably be more representative.

Edited May 23, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[thelee]

1 minute ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I think (Greater) Amulet of Health and Tough are flat max hp bonuses. They give you the same value regardless of your constitution, which is probably why the numbers are weird.

it's actually weirder - i think maxquest found that the game (accidentally) reverses a sign as part of the max health adjustment math.

Edited May 23, 2022 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Haha... good question. That was 2 years ago and I'm in my mid forties... :

[NotDumbEnough]

Something neat about Full Attacks is that ranged weapons take the longer range of the two (or is it the range of your main hand weapon?). So in most circumstances you want to take Open Choke on the Xefa blunderbuss if you're using it on a rogue/monk. Just put a pistol/wand/whatever in your main hand and the blunderbuss in your offhand. No need to get up close and personal to spam Stunning Surge.

[NotDumbEnough]

Beam spells seem to have one more quirk in addition to their duration not being alterable. At least for Ectopsychic Echo, Farcasting does not affect its cast range.

[NotDumbEnough]

1. If you Dominate a Charmed teammate, you get full control of them again. If you charm a charmed/dominated teammate, I believe they will just stand still

 

2. There are a few spells that get +2 accuracy per PL. The ones I know of are Slicken, Telekinetic Burst, Amplified Wave and Chanter's White Worm invocation. There are probably more out there.

Edited May 28, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[NotDumbEnough]

Instruments of Pain does not play well with bonuses against distant enemies (e.g. Sky Dragon Wurm). Despite being at distant range (>4m) you don't get the bonuses, which I guess are explicitly not allowed for melee regardless of range.

[Not So Clever Hound]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:08 PM, NotDumbEnough said:

2. There are a few spells that get +2 accuracy per PL. The ones I know of are Slicken, Telekinetic Burst, Amplified Wave and Chanter's White Worm invocation. There are probably more out there.

Yes indeed. This had been pointed by @thelee in his encyclopedia:

1. If the spell has an accuracy roll, it gets +1 accuracy per PL.
2. Some spells instead get +2 accuracy per PL. Chants, hazards, and spells that primarily only have that accuracy roll (no damage/healing, no duration effect) tend to benefit from this.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/power-level-scaling

 

[NotDumbEnough]

Yeah but Amplified Wave does have a damage roll and penetration. It's likely that it's seen as not having these because the first part of the spell involves targeting an ally which is auto-hit.

[thelee]

On 5/30/2022 at 7:47 AM, NotDumbEnough said:

Yeah but Amplified Wave does have a damage roll and penetration. It's likely that it's seen as not having these because the first part of the spell involves targeting an ally which is auto-hit.

yeah it's extremely "in the weeds" of how a spell is implemented. I suspect that it's an automatic thing in the engine to upgrade the acc PL scaling to +2/PL if none of the other parts of PL scaling were enabled, but if the base ability doesn't have ability scaling but it spawns secondary effect that does, you may still end up with doubled accuracy bonus.

it's such a terribly small, tedious detail that I'm not terribly sure it's worth treating as anything other than a glitch. is this something @Elric Galad's modding skillz can address somehow?

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, thelee said:

yeah it's extremely "in the weeds" of how a spell is implemented. I suspect that it's an automatic thing in the engine to upgrade the acc PL scaling to +2/PL if none of the other parts of PL scaling were enabled, but if the base ability doesn't have ability scaling but it spawns secondary effect that does, you may still end up with doubled accuracy bonus.

it's such a terribly small, tedious detail that I'm not terribly sure it's worth treating as anything other than a glitch. is this something @Elric Galad's modding skillz can address somehow?

Well, in my experience, +1 or +2 Acc per PL is really spell dependant.

Interestingly, in the gamedata files, every time they had to manually set a PL scaling, the put a +2 Acc / PL, which explains why it could happen to various spells.

I believe that they did not remember the actual +1 Acc per PL rule when they did that, and/or it changed at some point during the design. Or whatever.

 

Honnestly, I classified this in the minor obscure stuff that I don't want to dig. Not getting any Acc bonus per PL is annoying and I corrected a lot of abilities which had this issue (by putting a +1/PL, with few exception such as Fire Godlike racial fire shield which I put to +2 so it scales well). But getting a little too much isn't concerning. I would consider it as a minor advantage for certain spells that get a little more benefit from PL this way.

So basically, there are no exact rules. Most abilities get +1, a few get +2.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

40 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Interestingly, in the gamedata files, every time they had to manually set a PL scaling, the put a +2 Acc / PL, which explains why it could happen to various spells.

the fact that they deliberately (through changing design or whatnot) made this inconsistency kinda makes the madness all the worse.

 

and yeah, in practice, the difference between +2 acc/PL and +1 acc/PL is so minor and narrowthat i can't imagine actually optimizing for it in anyway. like you say, it's just nice that repulsing seal works ever so slightly better than expected. 

[NotDumbEnough]

I actually miss different spells having their own distinct accuracies from the first game, it's just that in this case it's implemented in a bad way. It would be nice to have some options that are more reliable than others without having it be auto-hit like Thrust of Tattered Veils. Right now we only have the Chanter's stunning invocation, and some hidden negative modifiers in Binding Web/Pull of Eora and these PL bonuses. An accuracy bonus would also go a long way towards making certain extremely situational spells feel better, for example Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin. A single dice roll that you go all in on for a tier 9 spell feels bad.

Edited June 1, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[NotDumbEnough]

Despite being foe only, Tekehu's Frost Wall will break stealth on party members that walk through it. There's no attack roll but you break stealth anyways. Other spells like his Chill Fog don't behave like this.