Need help with ranged ciper build

[Aerinqq]

Hi everyone,

I am trying to make a ranged cipher build, but cant decide on the multiclass. My original thought was mindstalker, I saw some build here

But honestly I am not sure about the synergy here. I mean why streetfighter? It requires to be on 1/2 hp to activate the bonus, isnt that kinda suicidal for squishy backline? Is there some rogue subclass that synergies better then streetfighter? Or maybe completely different multiclass like transcendent? I dont know why but I wasnt able to find any other builds outside this one. Main purpose of the character is DPS/CC. So what would be the best subclasses, recommended abilities and weapon of choice? (Arquebus/Blunderbuss/Pistols)?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Aerin

[Boeroer]

He chose Streetfighter because a bunderbuss + modal will distract you with each shot. Distracted contains flanked. That means you always suffer the penalty of distracted but get the Streetfighter's "Heating Up" bonus which lets you reload with a 50% recovery bonus and deal a lot more Sneak Attack dmg. If you also become bloodied: even more dmg, but it's not necessary to be a top notch damage dealer. The recovery bonus also applies to your spell casting. Since ciphers have some spells with short casting time but long recovery the synergy is a very nice one. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Boeroer
typo again

[Aerinqq]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

He chose Streetfighter because a bunderbuss + modal will distract you with each shot. Distracted contains flanked. That means you always suffer the penalty of distracted but get the Streetfighter's "Heating Up" bonus Wich lets you reload with a 50% recovery bonus and deal a lot more Sneak Attack dmg. If you also become bloodied: even more dmg, but it's not necessary to be a top notch damage dealer. The recovery bonus also applies to your spell casting. Since ciphers have some spells with short casting time but long recovery the synergy is a very nice one. 

Thanks very much for the explanation. So would you say this is optimal combo for ranged cipher? Or are there some better choices?

[Boeroer]

Optimal... depends. There are many ways to build a ranged cipher. Going Ranger/Cipher will give you more ACC and Driving Flight (and I didn't even test if Arcane Archer's Imbue spells generate focus), Black Jacket/Cipher can mean a big focus spike through switching, a Helwalker will give you additional dmg and duration and PEN, a Beguiler means you don't need to use a weapon that much anyway and so on. 

Streetfighter with Blunderbuss means very high dps but it also has rel. low ACC and low range. And it's not very sturdy. If you can overcome or accept those disadvantages it is a very powerful combo for an Ascendant. Because as I said the recovery bonus also applies to casting and you want to cast as many spells as possible while ascended.

For Ascended I think Streetfighter/Blunderbuss or Helwalker are some of the potentially most powerful combos (if you are not going single class which is also very good due to great abilities at higher PL8+ levels).

Edited April 28, 2019 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Reading up on player experiences a Ranger/Cipher is better than Rogue/Cipher in terms of safely gaining focus. But blunderbusses are completely and utterly broken in this game. So any build will work with those and make you snooze through the game. Trust me, it gets boring.

I've played pure Ascendant with a blunderbuss for the immediate max focus on first ability and then just spam attacks. Max out int and dex. It was fun, but I didn't really got the my character is bad ass vibe from it like I did from my Lord Daryns Voulge builds.

Edited April 29, 2019 by AeonsLegend

[Purudaya]

On 4/29/2019 at 7:28 AM, AeonsLegend said:

Reading up on player experiences a Ranger/Cipher is better than Rogue/Cipher in terms of safely gaining focus. But blunderbusses are completely and utterly broken in this game. So any build will work with those and make you snooze through the game. Trust me, it gets boring.

I've played pure Ascendant with a blunderbuss for the immediate max focus on first ability and then just spam attacks. Max out int and dex. It was fun, but I didn't really got the my character is bad ass vibe from it like I did from my Lord Daryns Voulge builds.

A high INT/PER Rogue/Cipher with dual mortars typically gains max focus with one (max 2) full attacks, depending on how enemies are clustered. Streetfighter/Ascendant is especially powerful with the powder burns modal proccing Heating Up. Bonus: dump resolution so that the distracted affliction (and thus Heating Up) lasts extra long through your ascended phase, providing extra casting speed.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Purudaya

[Boeroer]

If you are looking for a spell spammer I would completely forget about weapons and just pick a Beguiler. After picking Draining whip the Beguiler gains so much focus from a single AoE low level Deception like Phantom Foes that you can then spam a few shred powers or other damaging stuff and then drop a deception again to refill. No need to skill for weapon damage at all. Just put everything into spellcasting. I like a single class Beguiler best because the high level püassives are just great - but it even works very well with several multiclasses like Helwalker/Beguiler or Berserker/Beguiler that seem to be martial combos - but don't need to be because some of their key abilites work with spells as well (+MIG and +INT, Thunderous Blows, Swift Strikes, Enduring Dance, Berserker's Spirit Frenzy, Bloodlust, Blood Thirst and so on).

Edited May 16, 2019 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

If you are looking for a spell spammer I would completely forget about weapons and just pick a Beguiler. After picking Draining whip the Beguiler gains so much focus from a single AoE low level Deception like Phantom Foes that you can then spam a few shred powers or other damaging stuff and then drop a deception again to refill. 

What ??

Draining Whip applies to Beguiler focus refund from spells ?? I didn't know that !

[Boeroer]

Yessir, it gives you more focus back with Deception spells.  It's awesome. YOu can cast Whisper of Treason etc. for free. Actually I think it even gives you more focus back as it costs even though it's just single target (iirc, after some PLs). Cheap spells with huge AoE like Phantom Foes will give you huge focus refill - the more enemies you hit the better. That's why I like SC Beguiler so much: Shared Nightmare with Beguiler is just... I can't...    

Edited May 16, 2019 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Wow

I thought Beguiler was a better Psion than the Psion.

I didn't suspect how much.

I think even Mind Plague should be easily refunded.

[MaxQuest]

Beguiler gets 5 + 1 per PL focus when his deception powers graze/hit/crit an enemy that is flanked or affected by an affliction.

And his Draining Whip (+100% focus gain bonus) also only works when he hits an enemy that is flanked or affected by an affliction.

But it's worth noting that whips do only work with weapon attacks. So if Draining Whip doubles the focus gain from beguiling with powers... it's most likely a bug

Edited May 16, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

 Bonus: All Deception Cipher spells have +20% range. +5 Focus (+1 more for every Cipher Power Level) on scoring Hits with Deception spells against Flanked, Body Affiliation, Mind Affiliation targets.

=> Working also on Graze is also a bit surprising, it's significantly better this way.

[MaxQuest]

^ I think it's a term/language limitation here.

Graze/Hit/Crit are used as description of hit quality.

But the word "Hit" is also often used in the sense of 'successful' attack (i.e. the one that didn't miss). 

P.S. It doesn't make much sense to penalize crits. So if some description mentions "on scoring Hit" it usually means "graze/hit/crit". And if it mentions "on scoring Hit or Crit" it explicitly rules out grazes. But... there are exceptions; for example Patinated Plate's Rebound (20% chance to Stun attacker for 2s when Hit with melee weapon) actually triggers only on incoming hits and crits...

P.P.S. On a mildly related note: stun from rebound is auto-applied and there is no defense roll against it ^^

Edited May 16, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Don't know if it's a bug - since it was reported and even mentioned in a patch note if I remember correctly.

I didn't play Beguiler recently though. Hope that didn't change or anything. I simply loved his focus generation through Deception spells.

The fact that it only works on afflicted enemies (which I almost forgot) is like no restriction in reality: casting from stealth counts as if every target is afflicted already(!) That first cast also has the usual stealth recovery bonus of -85% recovery time. That means a ton of focus AND afflicted enemies for all your next spells right at the start of the battle (because stuff like Phantom Foes or Secret Horrors lasts quite long).  

Edited May 16, 2019 by Boeroer

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

There are/were several bugs pertaining to focus generation and refund: that the base focus gain from weapon attacks against afflicted targets is slightly lower, that attacks from stealth do not count, that when multiple afflicted targets are hit with a deception spell only two hits are refunded and that hit with a deception spell is refunded even when target is not afflicted. So beguiler was at the same time getting less in some situations and more in some other situation than they should.

 

Some may have been fixed, but I suspect the fourth glitch/regression is still there, because I loaded an old save (I have since switched from beguiler to soulblade), dropped Mental Binding on two enemies with no afflictions whatsoever on them and focus went from 60 to 40 and back up to 54, which means I was refunded 7 focus twice.  Then I dropped it on a whole pack of enemies and focus went through the roof.  Apparently the glitch that limited refunds from AoE deception to two was indeed fixed, but that only made already pretty severe glitch with refunds for hitting targes that do not qualify absolutely horrible.

 

So I do not recommend beguiler at the moment.

[Elric Galad]

What was your PL ? 7 Focus corresponds to PL 2.

Sneak Attack also applies the first 2 seconds of combat and from steltg. It might be the same for Beguiler refund (although the ability text is not 100% clear).

[Boeroer]

Exactly. First two seconds and also from stealth counts as hitting afflicted targets. THat's what I described in my post above (and why this restriction doesn't really feel like a restriction).

Anyways: Beguiler is very powerful in terms of focus generation because of that and you don't need to use a weapon at all which makes him a perfect candidate for caster/cipher multiclasses or anything else that doesn't use weapon attacks that much. This includes Forbidden Fist by the way: the ability does not count as weapon attack and thus generates no focus. So if you want a Forbidden Fist/Cipher you might want to try Beguiler (or Psion). Forbidden Fist (Enfeeblement on enemy) + 10 INT + Disintegrate is very strong. 

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

7 focus is about right. The problem is this: (crude video)

 

Combat started. Nobody was stealthed. To make sure no first strike/from stealth sneak attack bonus would be applied, I even shot one sailor first. Then I dropped Mental Binding (-20 focus) on bunch of sailors with no afflictions on them whatsoever and got +42 (six times +7).

If it was working as intended, I would have to cast Mental Binding (or something else) twice to get that massive +42 refund. But that would cost time and focus, notably I would have to make some attacks in between casts because the first MB would leave me with no focus (or use companions to flank some sailors first). It would still be nice and if cleverly played powerful perk. But glitched as it is, it is out of whack.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Psychovampiric Shield

[MaxQuest]

23 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Don't know if it's a bug - since it was reported and even mentioned in a patch note if I remember correctly.

Patch 4.1.0 did indeed mention two beguiler related bug fixes:

• Beguiler bonus Focus will now be granted correctly if hitting multiple targets at the same time.
• Beguiler Focus will regenerate properly.

But, these seem to be other bugs.

- 1). The first one was related to Beguiler's AoE deception powers not giving focus (5 + 1 per PL) for each matching target. 

The focus was given maximum for 2 targets in case of unit-targeted AoE powers (i.e. the game was counting only primary target, and one secondary hit by AoE)

And in case of non-unit-targeted AoE powers (like Secret Horrors), it was refunding focus for maximum 1 target (because refund SE didn't stack).

- 2). I guess this was related to Complete Self (+5 focus on crit), which was also reported to not give focus for all enemies crit.

 

5 hours ago, Psychovampiric Shield said:

7 focus is about right. The problem is this: (crude video)

 

Combat started. Nobody was stealthed. To make sure no first strike/from stealth sneak attack bonus would be applied, I even shot one sailor first. Then I dropped Mental Binding (-20 focus) on bunch of sailors with no afflictions on them whatsoever and got +42 (six times +7).

If it was working as intended, I would have to cast Mental Binding (or something else) twice to get that massive +42 refund. But that would cost time and focus, notably I would have to make some attacks in between casts because the first MB would leave me with no focus (or use companions to flank some sailors first). It would still be nice and if cleverly played powerful perk. But glitched as it is, it is out of whack.

The video cannot be viewed. Access forbidden.

As for double-casting... so you want to say that if you cast Mental Binding on a group of enemies that are not flanked/afflicted, you still get the focus refund?

If so, this must be a bug... and it could theoretically happen if the refund trigger's condition was checked after the paralyze/immobile have landed. 

23 hours ago, Boeroer said:

casting from stealth counts as if every target is afflicted already(!) 

Btw, in PoE1 everyone in the first 2s of combat was "susceptible to Sneak Attacks".

But in deadfire's gamedatabundles I see only 3 checks for Sneak Attack: flanked, body afflictions, mind afflictions. 

Do we still have the 2s rule?

Edited May 17, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

8 minutes ago, MaxQuest said:

and it could theoretically happen if the refund trigger's condition was checked after the paralyze/immobile have landed. 

It could be easily checked with Borrowed Instinct, since it's a Deception ability that doesn't inflict a status.

If it is true... well... I supposed it could be seen as a "liberal" interpretation of the rules more than an actual bug. Still won't proc on resistant/immune foes or with the couple of Deception Spells that don't inflict conditions. 
It won't prevent me from playing Beguiler for "ethic" reasons even if it's not corrected (even if it should )

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

I doubt it will be corrected, because I complained about it at length in november, and it is still there.

Anyway, I certainly do not want to dissuade anyone from playing beguiler for, as you put it, ethics reasons. Just fair warning beforehand: beguiler has this issue and some (me included) may find it unpleasant.

[MaxQuest]

19 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

It won't prevent me from playing Beguiler for "ethic" reasons even if it's not corrected (even if it should )

Naa, this potential bug is not such a big offender in my opinion any way

But Beguiler potentially getting doubled refund because of Draining Whip's bonus... oh.

Would be nice to find some time to test it, ehh. 

18 hours ago, Psychovampiric Shield said:

I doubt it will be corrected, because I complained about it at length in november, and it is still there.

Anyway, I certainly do not want to dissuade anyone from playing beguiler for, as you put it, ethics reasons. Just fair warning beforehand: beguiler has this issue and some (me included) may find it unpleasant.

Probably they missed the "gets +8 even though nobody has any affliction whatsoever" part. And only fixed the non-stacking part of Beguiler's refund.

Although even if they noticed it... I dunno how they would fix it. There is a tricky order problem.

Beguiler's refund goes in effect after you have grazed/hit/crit with a deception spell against a flanked or afflicted enemy.

So: you hit with  Secret Horrors and apply fightened/sickened -> the refund passive triggers and checks aha it's a deception spell and the enemy is afflicted -> give focus.

They would have to write extra logic and support a new type of passives that would trigger after hit resolution and before application of status effects or something like that...

Edited May 18, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

3 hours ago, MaxQuest said:

Naa, this potential bug is not such a big offender in my opinion any way

But Beguiler potentially getting doubled refund because of Draining Whip's bonus... oh.

Would be nice to find some time to test it, ehh. 

Probably they missed the "gets +8 even though nobody has any affliction whatsoever" part. And only fixed the non-stacking part of Beguiler's refund.

Although even if they noticed it... I dunno how they would fix it. There is a tricky order problem.

Beguiler's refund goes in effect after you have grazed/hit/crit with a deception spell against a flanked or afflicted enemy.

So: you hit with  Secret Horrors and apply fightened/sickened -> the refund passive triggers and checks aha it's a deception spell and the enemy is afflicted -> give focus.

They would have to write extra logic and support a new type of passives that would trigger after hit resolution and before application of status effects or something like that...

 

I think they had the pipeline right between versions 1 and 2, i.e. the game first checked whether the spell landed, then processed refund and only then applied afflictions, or something to that effect, because after version 2 focus became noticeably more abundant, there was suddenly always enough focus for another Whisper of Treason without making any attacks in between or putting effort into debuffing targets first etc.

Unfortunately, I do not make offline backups of old game installer files and neither GOG appears to offer old version for download (which would be cool), so I can not verify it now. I might look for old version of the game on torrents though.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Psychovampiric Shield

[Elric Galad]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:00 PM, Elric Galad said:

It could be easily checked with Borrowed Instinct, since it's a Deception ability that doesn't inflict a status.

If it is true... well... I supposed it could be seen as a "liberal" interpretation of the rules more than an actual bug. Still won't proc on resistant/immune foes or with the couple of Deception Spells that don't inflict conditions. 
It won't prevent me from playing Beguiler for "ethic" reasons even if it's not corrected (even if it should )

Just tested it, it seems to be true :

Beguiler refund on deception also works when the status is applied by the spell itself. But if the spell doesn't apply status, there is no refund.
Both Borrowed Instincts and Body Atunement don't refund Focus when the target is not afflicted.
So MaxQuest was right. 

However, I had draining whip passive, but I didn't see any double refund.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Hm... then you could skip Draining Whip and Biting Whip entirely.