Help with Cipher build

[davoker]

Hi, I've been with the game for a short time, but I have tried several classes, ranger, wizard and paladin, the one I liked most is the paladin, which I used as an off-tank, Eder was my main tanke (yes, Eder hehe)

 

I got to the point of the game where you know the "grieving mother", who is Cipher, I have taken her with me and I liked her a lot, and I have really wanted to become a Cipher, and finish the game with him, I've already started, but my build does not know if it's good and I'm not sure what weapons to use and how to do things.

 

Wood Elf

 

MIG 18

CON 8
DEX 15
PER 15
INT 18+1 old vailia
RES 3

 

I'm not sure what weapons to use at the start, I go with shield and dagger (of quality) until I find a decent weapon, as a second weapon I carry a crossbow to start the attack from afar.

 

- Will firearms go well too?

- Melee attack as main or secondary? (to generate focus), and if it were secondary, what weapon would you use for the main attack? bows? Firearms?

- The stats build as you see it? all right? wrong? regular? I would like to take a decent build, I want a regular build hehe

 

My preferences:

 

- I would like the attacks of my cipher to be body to body (melee), those of rank to initiate combat, is it possible the melee with the cipher? 2 weapons of a hand? of 2 hands? weapon and shield? (Is it advisable a lot of deviation if I'm going to go body to body?)

- I always use game characters (Eder as tanke, Pellagina as off-tank, etc), so the build of my cipher should fit well with them.

 

I think I do not have any more questions hehe, I have not played this genre for more than 20 years, so I'm a bit lost, but the hroas that I tried out classes have helped me to have some base, and I've looked at builds here and for youtube, but there are always doubts xD

 

I have another stats build in mind, but I do not know how it will work, it would be (MIN/MAX):

 

MIG - MAX

CON - MIN
DEX - MAX
PER - MIN
INT - MAX
RES - 15 (the rest of points)

 

Opinions?

 

PS: I play in high difficulty, POTD I think it's a lot for me, I'm very "green" with the genre hehe

 

Thanks!

Edited March 28, 2019 by davoker

[DEFO]

well as i know you can use crossbow or bow with cipher , and cipher can be support i guess or dps :D that's all what i know at the moment sorry

[MaxQuest]

Your first stat distribution is fine for a ranged cipher. But melee might have problems due to low Concentration.

 

Also it's important to decide what kind of melee cipher you want. Is it ok if he's only crowd-control oriented; or if you want to also deal spell damage.

 

P.S. You might find these two posts of use:

- one

- two

[davoker]

Your first stat distribution is fine for a ranged cipher. But melee might have problems due to low Concentration.

 

Also it's important to decide what kind of melee cipher you want. Is it ok if he's only crowd-control oriented; or if you want to also deal spell damage.

 

P.S. You might find these two posts of use:

- one

- two

In the end I did this, taken from your link with several builds, but I modified it only a little:

 

2. frontline (a bit tankier) dps - plate (sanguine), sabre + shield; pale elf or boreal dwarf; ~ 18/10/14/12/14/10

 

It has 16 of mig instead of 18, and 16 of int instead of 14, sacrificing 2 of mig for more int, do you think it's okay?

 

At the moment I see it well and climbed well to the character, playing on "high" difficulty, the one before POTD.

 

Regarding your question, I like to "control" the enemies and cause them some status as "stopped" or "confused", but also hurt with their magic, not just melee, I like the melee style more than rank and that's why I want it to be decent like melee dps, but the finiteness is to have good focus for your magic, which is what matters most to me and what better has to work, but combined with dps melee for it hehe

 

That would be what I want for my cipher.

 

PS: Excuse my English, I hope you understand :S  the delay in answering is because I am new and moderation has to check my messages xD

Edited March 29, 2019 by davoker

[MaxQuest]

Hehe) So you like it all: somewhat tanky + phys damage + crowd control + spell damage)

 

While this wouldn't work that well on PotD (where one might want to specialize the characters and optimize the stats), this is actually possible on Hard (veteran) difficulty. The thing is: enemies on Hard have -15 lower defences compared to PotD; so having 18 Perception on that difficulty feels almost the same as just 3 PER on Hard Also your characters will feel less squishy, because enemy have also 15 less accuracy.

 

Thus for your needs, I would adjust 18/10/14/12/14/10 in the following way: 17/9/15/9/17/10.

Most often your routine will be: start with Wispers of Treason on enemy you don't want to attack. Cast Mental Binding on enemy you want to attack. And when you have enough focus use Amplified Wave (or Silent Scream or Echo, Disintegration, etc).

 

It would be even better if you had a priest to toss Painful Interdiction at the start of combat.

And if you have a cc-wizard or another cipher in party for cover, and feel tanky enough, you can switch from sabre+shield to dual-wield sabres.

 

P.S. Also would recommend looking for Shod-in-Faith boots and Swaddling Sheet (cloak) for your party.

Edited March 29, 2019 by MaxQuest

[davoker]

Hehe) So you like it all: somewhat tanky + phys damage + crowd control + spell damage)

 

While this wouldn't work that well on PotD (where one might want to specialize the characters and optimize the stats), this is actually possible on Hard (veteran) difficulty. The thing is: enemies on Hard have -15 lower defences compared to PotD; so having 18 Perception on that difficulty feels almost the same as just 3 PER on Hard Also your characters will feel less squishy, because enemy have also 15 less accuracy.

 

Thus for your needs, I would adjust 18/10/14/12/14/10 in the following way: 17/9/15/9/17/10.

Most often your routine will be: start with Wispers of Treason on enemy you don't want to attack. Cast Mental Binding on enemy you want to attack. And when you have enough focus use Amplified Wave (or Silent Scream or Echo, Disintegration, etc).

 

It would be even better if you had a priest to toss Painful Interdiction at the start of combat.

And if you have a cc-wizard or another cipher in party for cover, and feel tanky enough, you can switch from sabre+shield to dual-wield sabres.

 

P.S. Also would recommend looking for Shod-in-Faith boots and Swaddling Sheet (cloak) for your party.

I understand, the stats that I put were:

16/10/14/12/16/10 (Pale elf)

As I told you, I removed 2 from mig to put it in int, because I want magics to be a priority, without decuding the dps.

 

Nor do I want a build that does not stand out in anything, the damage could be less in exchange for being a little more tanke, and focus the damage on the magic? I mean, how could I change my current build to focus on something more specific, specialize more in dealing with the damage it receives and having a decent magic damage?

 

Would it be possible to get it and generate enough focus by having less damage from dps melee? something like cipher off-tank with damage focused on magic.

 

It's just an idea, I'm still looking for a build that convinces me, I do not care if the damage (dps melee) is less if in return the magic is good, generates enough focus and the cipher decently endures the blows they give, same is ask a lot, the hybrids that do everything in the end are not good at anything hehe

 

I am open to different builds, what you put in the 2 threads above are recommended? Are there more variants worthwhile? I the only requirement that I have is that I like to do dps melee, not rank dps, it does not have to be a very large DPS while generating enough focus, because I would be more focused on its magic.

 

Thank you very much for your help!

Edited March 29, 2019 by davoker

[MaxQuest]

I understand, the stats that I put were:

16/10/14/12/16/10 (Pale elf)

As I told you, I removed 2 from mig to put it in int, because I want magics to be a priority, without decuding the dps.

Ok. That will do too.

 

I mean, how could I change my current build to focus on something more specific, specialize more in dealing with the damage it receives and having a decent magic damage?

Cipher can't really become a main tank. But, he can become tanky enough for non-boss fights.

 

The idea is to have armor with highest DR (usually plate armor, pierce-proofed) and just enough deflection in order to not get crit. This will allow to shrug the majority of incoming damage from low-hitting enemies (which usually are the majority of encounter).

At the same time, spot the hard-hitting enemies (like ogres) and use hard crowd-control abilities vs them.

 

This way, you don't really care for damage coming from 'weaklings', and keep the real threats unable to do harm.

A good idea would be recruit Grieving Mother, and together start the combat with charming main threats from enemy backline, and paralyzing from their frontline. Hammer and anvil of some sort.

 

Would it be possible to get it and generate enough focus by having less damage from dps melee? something like cipher off-tank with damage focused on magic.

A cipher with a shield will indeed have lower focus generation. Unless you durganize your weapon, armor and shield; get gauntlets of swift action and use time parasite / potion of deleterious motion; and use a weapon with 'fast' enchant (e.g: Sword of Daenysis, Rimecutter or Unforgiven).

 

It's just an idea, I'm still looking for a build that convinces me, I do not care if the damage (dps melee) is less if in return the magic is good, generates enough focus and the cipher decently endures the blows they give, same is ask a lot, the hybrids that do everything in the end are not good at anything hehe

Speaking of spell damage: the most of it comes from:

- Amplified Wave

- Disintegration

- and in the early game: Echo and Soul Shock

 

A glass cannon cipher has enough focus generation to compete with the strongest total damage dealers, these being: dps-barbarian and dragon-trashed-chanter.

A more tanky cipher, especially the one with shield will be doing ~25% less damage in the late game; or ~33% damage in the early game. While being tankier by a somewhat similar amount.

 

So just think what you want more.

 

I am open to different builds, what you put in the 2 threads above are recommended? Are there more variants worthwhile? I the only requirement that I have is that I like to do dps melee, not rank dps, it does not have to be a very large DPS while generating enough focus, because I would be more focused on its magic.

Out of those listed builds, I have full-playthroughs with v1,3,4,5,6.

They feel different and I liked all of them. But melee ciphers definitely required more cover from their teammates. And by cover I mean, that if some hard-hitter jumps on your cipher, let your other debilitator disable that enemy asap. And for the role of such debilitator the best is a second cipher.

 

P.S. But in the end, I would say: which ciphers to choose depends mostly on your party composition and preferred style of play.

So just do what you like^^

Edited March 30, 2019 by MaxQuest

[davoker]

 

I understand, the stats that I put were:

16/10/14/12/16/10 (Pale elf)

As I told you, I removed 2 from mig to put it in int, because I want magics to be a priority, without decuding the dps.

Ok. That will do too.

 

I mean, how could I change my current build to focus on something more specific, specialize more in dealing with the damage it receives and having a decent magic damage?

Cipher can't really become a main tank. But, he can become tanky enough for non-boss fights.

 

The idea is to have armor with highest DR (usually plate armor, pierce-proofed) and just enough deflection in order to not get crit. This will allow to shrug the majority of incoming damage from low-hitting enemies (which usually are the majority of encounter).

At the same time, spot the hard-hitting enemies (like ogres) and use hard crowd-control abilities vs them.

 

This way, you don't really care for damage coming from 'weaklings', and keep the real threats unable to do harm.

A good idea would be recruit Grieving Mother, and together start the combat with charming main threats from enemy backline, and paralyzing from their frontline. Hammer and anvil of some sort.

 

Would it be possible to get it and generate enough focus by having less damage from dps melee? something like cipher off-tank with damage focused on magic.

A cipher with a shield will indeed have lower focus generation. Unless you durganize your weapon, armor and shield; get gauntlets of swift action and use time parasite / potion of deleterious motion; and use a weapon with 'fast' enchant (e.g: Sword of Daenysis, Rimecutter or Unforgiven).

 

It's just an idea, I'm still looking for a build that convinces me, I do not care if the damage (dps melee) is less if in return the magic is good, generates enough focus and the cipher decently endures the blows they give, same is ask a lot, the hybrids that do everything in the end are not good at anything hehe

Speaking of spell damage: the most of it comes from:

- Amplified Wave

- Disintegration

- and in the early game: Echo and Soul Shock

 

A glass cannon cipher has enough focus generation to compete with the strongest total damage dealers, these being: dps-barbarian and dragon-trashed-chanter.

A more tanky cipher, especially the one with shield will be doing ~25% less damage in the late game; or ~33% damage in the early game. While being tankier by a somewhat similar amount.

 

So just think what you want more.

 

I am open to different builds, what you put in the 2 threads above are recommended? Are there more variants worthwhile? I the only requirement that I have is that I like to do dps melee, not rank dps, it does not have to be a very large DPS while generating enough focus, because I would be more focused on its magic.

Out of those listed builds, I have full-playthroughs with v1,3,4,5,6.

They feel different and I liked all of them. But melee ciphers definitely required more cover from their teammates. And by cover I mean, that if some hard-hitter jumps on your cipher, let your other debilitator disable that enemy asap. And for the role of such debilitator the best is a second cipher.

 

P.S. But in the end, I would say: which ciphers to choose depends mostly on your party composition and preferred style of play.

So just do what you like^^

 

Ok, I'm pretty clear about the subject, I can also do tests by resetting the stats, in case you have to "tune" a little bit

 

Thank you very much for your help and patience, especially with my painful English!

[davoker]

 

...

 

Ok, I've tried for hours (exactly 20 and 21 hours each build xD) 2 builds of dps melee (frontline):

 

16/10/14/12/16/10 -> Pale Elf - Old Vailia - Colonist

18/8/16/12/16/8 -> Pale Elf - Old Vailia - Colonist

 

And I realized that I focus more on CC, I like to have my cipher in frontline, but in the end my attacks are CC style, harmful attacks that affect several enemies, and attacks that paralyze, etc etc.

 

At this point, I think these builds you recommend here -> https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90890-help-designing-a-melee-cipher-build/?do=findComment&comment=1870266 or here https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/93254-cipher-question/page-1?do=findComment&comment=1925317 They would adjust more what I look for.

 

Do you still recommend those builds or would you make any changes to them for a cipher dps melee cc at present?

 

PS: I had thought about this build, to see what you think:

 

16/8/14/16/16/8 -> Pale Elf - Old Vailia - Colonist (The alternative would be to lower Mig to 12 or 10 and upload dex and int)

 

1H + Shield at the beginning, a little later with 2 weapons of a hand, all this taking into account that:

 

- I will not use another cipher, mine will be the only one.

- I will use the characters of the game, Eder as tank, Pallegina as off-tank and melee, Aloth, Durador, and the last one is not clear, Kana or maybe another later...

- Oriented to CC but also do damage with their spells.

- Which game on "Difficult" difficulty, the one before POTD.

 

I've already tried it, and I have to say that the beginning, the first map where you are already alone, that there are wolves, a group of thieves, a group of xaurips, it did not cost me a lot to kill them using this build, with a weapon (rapier ) and shield, but I think that if there is something missing from dex, attack a little faster, perhaps Mig 14 and leave DEx at 16? I wanted to know your opinion about this build.

 

Edit: In the end I opted for this build:

 

Pale Elf - Old Vailia - Colonist

Mig - 17

CON - 8

DEX - 19

PER - 10

INT - 16

RES - 8

 

I have left the perception as standard, I really like to upload it for the precision and interruption (and for the options of dialogue, that you lose many options), but I wanted to give more speed of action for both the dps and the cast.

 

I have not had problems even at level 3 doing everything except Caed Nua, which I have not yet arrived, and I am in the middle of the Eothas temple, it is also true that I play in "dificil" and not in POTD, but my experience with this genre of games is small and I'm still learning, it's costing me a lot to do some battles, especially in areas near the Pass of Dyr hehe (I'm talking about other games of course, I've already tried at least 10 build with different classes xD)

Edited April 3, 2019 by davoker

[MaxQuest]

Missed your reply, so it's probably late by now, but here we go:

 

16/8/14/16/16/8 -> Pale Elf - Old Vailia - Colonist (The alternative would be to lower Mig to 12 or 10 and upload dex and int)

For Hard difficulty that will do fine.

And so will 17/8/19/10/16/8.

 

The second is a bit more damage oriented. And you will hardly feel the lower accuracy because enemies don't have +15 def bonus as on PotD. Plus you have a paladin and priest in party for the extra acc.

 

Do you still recommend those builds or would you make any changes to them for a cipher dps melee cc at present?

Well yes. But keep in mind that it is a general direction. And each better can be further tailored to better fit in a specific party composition or even playstyle.

 

- I will not use another cipher, mine will be the only one.

- I will use the characters of the game, Eder as tank, Pallegina as off-tank and melee, Aloth, Durador, and the last one is not clear, Kana or maybe another later...

- Oriented to CC but also do damage with their spells.

- Which game on "Difficult" difficulty, the one before POTD.

So, one lazy way to do it is:

- frontline: Eder, Pallegina, Aloth (plate, 1h+shield)

- secondline: Durance (with pike or quarterstaff), YourCipher

- backline: Sagani

 

And on lvl 9, switch Sagani for Kana (plate, 1h+shield, Dragon Trashed).

And either put:

- frontline: Eder, Kana, Aloth (plate, 1h+shield)

- secondline: Durance (with pike or quarterstaff), YourCipher

- backline: Pallegina (with reloading weapons)

 

or

- frontline: Eder, Pallegina, Kana

- secondline: YourCipher, Aloth (plate, 1h+shield)

- backline: Durance (leather armor)

 

In either case:

- Aloth is build for crowd-control and offtanking

- Pallegina is build as support offtank with possible alpha-strike

- Kana is your second damage dealer (via Dragon Trashed), and since he deals his damage passively, he is built as offtank

- Durance is a support that starts with Painfull Interdiction, increases your party accuracy, provides buffs. But who can also assist with damage dealing during boss fights (with the help of Minor Avatar, DAoM potion and +MIG/INT items)

 

And your MC is a versatile damage dealer, who starts the fight with Mental Binding and builds focus by attacking the paralyzed target. And after that spends that focus on Amplified Waves mostly (and if he didn't learn it yet: on Echo, Soul Shock and Silent Scream).

[davoker]

Missed your reply, so it's probably late by now, but here we go:

 

16/8/14/16/16/8 -> Pale Elf - Old Vailia - Colonist (The alternative would be to lower Mig to 12 or 10 and upload dex and int)

For Hard difficulty that will do fine.

And so will 17/8/19/10/16/8.

 

The second is a bit more damage oriented. And you will hardly feel the lower accuracy because enemies don't have +15 def bonus as on PotD. Plus you have a paladin and priest in party for the extra acc.

 

Do you still recommend those builds or would you make any changes to them for a cipher dps melee cc at present?

Well yes. But keep in mind that it is a general direction. And each better can be further tailored to better fit in a specific party composition or even playstyle.

 

- I will not use another cipher, mine will be the only one.

- I will use the characters of the game, Eder as tank, Pallegina as off-tank and melee, Aloth, Durador, and the last one is not clear, Kana or maybe another later...

- Oriented to CC but also do damage with their spells.

- Which game on "Difficult" difficulty, the one before POTD.

So, one lazy way to do it is:

- frontline: Eder, Pallegina, Aloth (plate, 1h+shield)

- secondline: Durance (with pike or quarterstaff), YourCipher

- backline: Sagani

 

And on lvl 9, switch Sagani for Kana (plate, 1h+shield, Dragon Trashed).

And either put:

- frontline: Eder, Kana, Aloth (plate, 1h+shield)

- secondline: Durance (with pike or quarterstaff), YourCipher

- backline: Pallegina (with reloading weapons)

 

or

- frontline: Eder, Pallegina, Kana

- secondline: YourCipher, Aloth (plate, 1h+shield)

- backline: Durance (leather armor)

 

In either case:

- Aloth is build for crowd-control and offtanking

- Pallegina is build as support offtank with possible alpha-strike

- Kana is your second damage dealer (via Dragon Trashed), and since he deals his damage passively, he is built as offtank

- Durance is a support that starts with Painfull Interdiction, increases your party accuracy, provides buffs. But who can also assist with damage dealing during boss fights (with the help of Minor Avatar, DAoM potion and +MIG/INT items)

 

And your MC is a versatile damage dealer, who starts the fight with Mental Binding and builds focus by attacking the paralyzed target. And after that spends that focus on Amplified Waves mostly (and if he didn't learn it yet: on Echo, Soul Shock and Silent Scream).

 

Thanks @MaxQuest for the advice, my cipher with those latest stats (17/8/19/10/16/8) the truth is that it works very well and I'm quite happy with the result, for PODT I would have to fine tune more, but in High difficulty goes very well as you say (Although I miss having more PER, by the answers in the dialogues, I do not know if it would be feasible these stats instead of those that I use 14/8/18/14/16/8, taking into account that I use weapon at 2 hands, Mig 14 should be enough, and DEX 18 instead of 19, is only 1 point, with those 4 points earned I raise from 10 to 14 of PER, and so at least I have better answers in the dialogues, and also improved the precision and interruption xD)

 

But I'm carrying it differently, that is:

 

- Frontline

- Plate Armor (Sanguine, any better alternative? later?) + Shod in Faith + BotEP (when you have it, some other Estoc as an alternative until you have BotEP?)

- And as a weapon, I started with 2 weapons of 1 hand, I have not used a shield, but at level 4 or 5 I changed (to test) with a two-handed weapon, tipi estoc, for the extra penetration of armor, and works much better, with the rest bonus, some talent and some accessory I raise the perception a bit (for better precision), and I have not had many problems of failures when attacking, so it works in two hands of wonder.

 

At the beginning even, when you go alone, which also was still with 2 weapons of 1 hand, I had to use some cure (from the accessory that you start with the pig mascot xD) with the wolf pack of the first map, but removing that I did not have major problems (well, the 2 Lurkers in Black Meadow are pretty bastards for level 3 xD).

 

At level 5/6 you start to get scared xD even if it is in the front line, it is not a problem, I have Eder and Pallegina in front of me, my first line is them 2 and my cipher, but as I start with spells, that being I can stay behind while I'm casting, I'm not the first one to attack, so once I use Whispers of Treason and paralyze another, I attack the paralyzed and genre focus.

 

I have not had many problems, at least not many, groups of very numerous enemies can make me go bad, there I use Whispers of Treason generously xD also there is a rod that you give in a mission of Caed Nua that once you acquire your maximum power (or before), their attacks have a% (quite high the truth) of putting an enemy in our favor, and that helps a lot hehe

 

The thing is that it works very well with two-handed weapon, better than I could have expected, the mix of plate + estoc is ideal, Whispers of Treason + Mental Binding and to put cane xD

 

Do you advise on some level to put another spell like Whispers of Treason? the equivalent that there is but improved in superior levels, or with Whispers of Treason is enough?

Edited April 9, 2019 by davoker

[MaxQuest]

some other Estoc as an alternative until you have BotEP?

If you go for 2H route, then get Tidefall asap. It comes in superb quality and until lvl 11 is your best choice, only rivaled by Firebrand from the gloves you can buy from the Knights of the Crucible.

 

 

As for powers to use: it depends. The common advice although would be again the same: Whisper of Treason on threats that you want to deal later with. Mind Binding on the threat in your melee range (and make sure to be hitting the paralyzed enemies mostly; as it will generate more focus due to lower defences). Also toss an occasional Echo. But mostly dump focus into Amplified Wave spam.

[Boeroer]

Tidefall's wounding doesn't give you focus (unlike other lashes). So I alsways feel it's a waste on a cipher - IF you have other party members who could use it.

 

Justice has an additional 10% "mini" crushing lash in addition to the 25% one that gives you focus. It's not big and often gets eaten up by DR in the early game, but it's there. I think it's a good backup weapon for a melee, two-handed cipher.

 

My recommendation would be Firebrand though. It doesn't care which weapon focus you have (works will all). Grab the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer (it's good for a cipher anyway) and Forgemaster Gloves and swing that burning blade until you get the BotEP - or whatever you fancy. YOu will then drop the gloves but keep the belt. So you will always have a backup weapon once you meet pierce-immune foes which your estoc can't hut. Only enemy who will laugh at you: Flame Blights.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Boeroer

[dirkdigglr]

My recommendation would be Firebrand though. It doesn't care which weapon focus you have (works will all). Grab the Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer (it's good for a cipher anyway) and Forgemaster Gloves and swing that burning blade until you get the BotEP - or whatever you fancy. YOu will then drop the gloves but keep the belt. So you will always have a backup weapon once you meet pierce-immune foes which your estoc can't hut. Only enemy who will laugh at you: Flame Blights.

Very interesting. I'm running a similar melee cipher build and planning on using BotEP and was trying to decide on a good back up weapon for pierce immune enemies. I didn't realize firebrand would benefit from my weapon focus so that is great to know.

 

Also are you saying the firebrand gloves and belt stack? Giving 6 uses per rest?

Edited April 11, 2019 by dirkdigglr

[Boeroer]

Exactly. 6 uses per rest with both items. For a backup weapon the belt is enough then (3 per rest).

[MaxQuest]

Tidefall's wounding doesn't give you focus (unlike other lashes). So I alsways feel it's a waste on a cipher - IF you have other party members who could use it.

 

Justice has an additional 10% "mini" crushing lash in addition to the 25% one that gives you focus. It's not big and often gets eaten up by DR in the early game, but it's there. I think it's a good backup weapon for a melee, two-handed cipher.

Yeap, that cipher was my only melee 2H-user, so all such stuff was going to her)

 

The problem with Justice is that you can't get another +25% elemental lash on top of that +25% crush lash. So you effectively end up with +10% mini-lash as the sole benefit. And prior to level 12, Tidefall gives +15% damage bonus and +4 accuracy, just because of being Superb; with wounding just being a small collateral bonus. Meanwhile draining was helping a tiny bit with Sanguine Plate's squishiness.

Btw, I've just loaded an older save, to check what I actually was using. So here's my lvl 8 melee cc-oriented hireling: screenshot

 

I actually had Tidefall in offset (enchanted vs spirits), while the main weapon was Drake's Bell. And that's because of +5 DR Bypass from Estoc type and +3 extra DR Bypass from weapon itself.

And I've enchanted it against beasts, because around those levels there were many spiders, wolves, lions, etc.

 

P.S. And for stronger fights I had those Forgemaster's Gloves for the already mentioned (3-per-rest) Firebrand.

 

Also are you saying the firebrand gloves and belt stack? Giving 6 uses per rest?

The belt was added to the game, after my last playthrough. But I would 99% expect them to "stack". Edited April 12, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I can make that a 100%.

[davoker]

Thanks, I have those 3 swords that you mention, even though I have Justice with Pallegina, for Tidefall I had 8 of mechanics, I had to sleep in an inn to increase to 10 of mechanics, because without 10 the sword did not come out xD

 

I'm currently at level "almost" 10, with sanguine plate, gloves Forgemaster, the belt that you have said I do not have it, so I'm going to buy it xD

 

I put the ability to increase accuracy with Estoc, for the BEP when I have it, that's why I was using the Drake's Bell sword, because it's a Estoc type, but I've been using Tidefall, I guess until I have BotEP I could alternate between those 2 or 3 swords (if we count Justice) according to the need.

 

For neck accessory, what do you recommend? I do not have much right now, they just gave me a Caed Nua mission "Cloak of Comfort", I think it would be a good option to have something better, right?

 

PS: By the way, I am now progressing in Caed Nua, I still have not started Act 3, I still need to go to the last map, Clîaban rilag, but I wanted to advance in the dungeons of Caed Nua a little more, and do the secondary of Caed Nua that the I have not done, the batlla by Caed Nua xD

 

Only in a game (several xD) I got to act 3, but this is the final, the stats at the end were the ones that I liked the most of those I tried, and they go well, I like how my character unfolds, at the end were the ones that I said: 17-8-19-10-16-8

 

Edit: I already have the sword BotEP  , some advice to enchant it? corrosion? fire? What secondary damage do I use?

Edited April 13, 2019 by davoker

[davoker]

My God, I am not capable of killing the Adra Dragon, I have asked for the count of the hours I have tried, I have tried all kinds of tactics, different approaches, as soon as he sends me his dragon breath, he leaves almost the whole group dead ¬¬

My group is: My cipher, you are right up there, I'm beginning to think that maybe I should change my stats, instead of 17-8-19-10-16-8, put 10-8-18-18-16- 8, melee equal with BotEP and plate senguine, Eder as tanke, Pallegina as off and buffs, Durance with buffs and debuffs, Aloth for damage and other aids and Sagani, which equal the change for Kana?.

I realize that with my cipher I fail with stronger enemies, maybe I'm not using enough my paralysis spells and others, because with that I would not fail, but I miss having more perception, they interrupt me a lot too, that's why I had thought about changing the stats, I play on "difficult" difficulty, the one before PoTD.

I do not know, I do something wrong, but I've tried many hours, I've come to leave the dragon with 2 points of life, it's the maximum I've achieved, but it always kills me, it's frustrating, I never had anything like this in any game hahaha

Edited April 29, 2019 by davoker

[masterty66]

On 4/28/2019 at 9:13 PM, davoker said:

My God, I am not capable of killing the Adra Dragon, I have asked for the count of the hours I have tried, I have tried all kinds of tactics, different approaches, as soon as he sends me his dragon breath, he leaves almost the whole group dead ¬¬

My group is: My cipher, you are right up there, I'm beginning to think that maybe I should change my stats, instead of 17-8-19-10-16-8, put 10-8-18-18-16- 8, melee equal with BotEP and plate senguine, Eder as tanke, Pallegina as off and buffs, Durance with buffs and debuffs, Aloth for damage and other aids and Sagani, which equal the change for Kana?.

I realize that with my cipher I fail with stronger enemies, maybe I'm not using enough my paralysis spells and others, because with that I would not fail, but I miss having more perception, they interrupt me a lot too, that's why I had thought about changing the stats, I play on "difficult" difficulty, the one before PoTD.

I do not know, I do something wrong, but I've tried many hours, I've come to leave the dragon with 2 points of life, it's the maximum I've achieved, but it always kills me, it's frustrating, I never had anything like this in any game hahaha

 

My usual tactic is to finish the conversation and then run as far to the left of the cave as I can. The Dragon will try his breath attack initially but it will miss because you won't be there. 

 

Then, when you're in the corner, immediately start buffing. Have Durance cast Crowns for the Faithful, Devotions of the Faithful, and Prayer Against Fear. Let Aloth buff himself with Deletrius Alacrity of Motion, Spirit shield, Llengrath's Displaced Image, Iron Skin, etc.

Have a few characters summon monsters (with figurines, which you should have plenty of at this point) in front of you to buy you some more time to buff. Have those monsters engage the Dragon. 

Then, once buffed, you can start engaging the dragon. With your accuracy buffed that high from Durance's spells you should be able to hit it. Even better, what you can do now is have Aloth try to throw a Ninagauth's Shadow Flame at the Dragon. It is not immune to Paralyze, so if you can land it on him, the Dragon will be disabled and you can then kill it. It will go down fast once paralyzed. Of course, you might not have Ninagauth's Shadow Flame. To get that, you would have had to beat White March 1 and find the Spellbook, which maybe not everyone does. That's OK. If you don't have that, try crafting some scrolls of Paralyze. I'm assuming Aloth or Durance or someone in your party has high lore. Let them cast that on the Dragon once you have finished buffing, and eventually it will land and you can kill it.

As a Cipher you also have the paralyze ability which should work. 

The key really is buffing your accuracy up high enough that you can land the spell on the Adra Dragon. Crowns for the Faithful and Devotions of the Faithful should get you to have sky high accuracy. Prayer Against Fear should prevent your accuracy from taking a huge hit from the Dragon's fear aura. After that it's a matter of getting lucky enough to hit the dragon with paralyze. Keep spamming it at him and it will eventually land. Once it does, it's game over for him as you can then focus fire the Dragon with all you got. 

I killed it very quickly recently on a run (PC Ranger), using the tactics above. Once Aloth hit him with the Paralyze I was able to shoot him with Persistence, then land a Cleansing Flame with Durance, and also everyone else was hitting him too. He went down in seconds. 

Of course his defenses are high and you might not always hit him with the spells even when buffed. But eventually you will, and once you do, he should go down quick. Paralyze is a devastating debuff in Poe1.

[MaxQuest]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:13 AM, davoker said:

My God, I am not capable of killing the Adra Dragon, I have asked for the count of the hours I have tried, I have tried all kinds of tactics, different approaches, as soon as he sends me his dragon breath, he leaves almost the whole group dead ¬¬

The fight gets much easier, once you understand what makes the fight hard:

- AoE CONE breath

- Terrify aura

- Adragans dominating party members

 

So:

- let Eder solo tank the dragon. And either place the party 120 degrees to the side from were dragon is facing. Or keep the dragon perma-disabled.

- let ciphers switch to Adragans when they come in range. Because building focus on lower-DR enemies is faster than when hitting the high-DR dragon.

- buff party vs Terrify (so Prayer against Fear)

- buff party vs Dominate (Prayer vs Treachery)

- buff party accuracy

- use Scale Breaker

- let cipher paralyze the dragon (Mental Binding + Backlash) and let Aloth help with cc as well

- choose your source of damage. For me it was: Disintegrations + Dragon Trashed + Shining Beacons + Cleansing Flames (to double the tick rate)

You can see an example: here

Edited April 30, 2019 by MaxQuest

[davoker]

Ok, thanks guys, I've been traveling and I have not been able to play either, so I'm going back to the game hehe

One question for you MaxQuest, in the video that you put, you use 2 ciphers, one is frontline melee CC, the stats that you use, maximize dex, per and int? is that I see in the video that you have little MIG, little CON and RES seems that you have lowered it a lot.

I suppose the potions, the meals, the armor, etc. have changed your stats, but I guess you've left MIG at 10? RES in in 5 or 6, CON in 8 or 10 and everything else you have raised DEX to the maximum, INT to the maximum and the rest to PER?

Edit: Definitely I will try this build of a guide of yours, it is frontline CC with BotEP, but in your guide you say Dwarf with 9/9/18/17/17/8, I will use Pale Elf with 10-8-18-18-16 - 8, so far my build has always been 17-8-19-10-16-8, but even on "difficult" difficulty, which is where I play, I find little perception, in other games I have varied to 16-8-18 -12-16-8, with similar results.

The team could be:
Eder
Aloth
Durador
Kana
My cipher
??? (Grieving Mother for ranged and additional support? Mm)

Edited May 18, 2019 by davoker

[MaxQuest]

9 hours ago, davoker said:

One question for you MaxQuest, in the video that you put, you use 2 ciphers, one is frontline melee CC, the stats that you use, maximize dex, per and int? is that I see in the video that you have little MIG, little CON and RES seems that you have lowered it a lot.

I suppose the potions, the meals, the armor, etc. have changed your stats, but I guess you've left MIG at 10? RES in in 5 or 6, CON in 8 or 10 and everything else you have raised DEX to the maximum, INT to the maximum and the rest to PER?

I had their stats noted somewhere.

Here they are:

> cipher: Bis. wood elf. stats: 9/9/18/18/17/7. final stats: 14/9/21/22/20/10

- role: crowd-control; position: frontline
- skills: 2 athletics; 4 survival; 13 mechanics; 4 lore;
- quick items: DAoM, War Paint, Major Endurance, Scroll of Protection
- main set: BotEP (early in the game: Drake's Bell)
- offset: Tidefall (early in the game: Firebrand gloves)
- armor: Many Scars (early in the game: Sanguine)
- boots: of speed
- rings: thorns + protection
- belt: mortal protection
- cloak: master mystic
- gloves: swift action

> cipher: Nerilei. wood elf. stats: 18/7/17/18/14/3. final stats: 25/10/21/24/18/10

- role: maxing total damage (with occasional/side crowd-control); position: backline
- skills: 4 athletics; 10 survival; 10 lore
- quick items: DAoM, War Paint, Major Recovery, Major Endurance
- main set: Rain of Goddah (early in the game: Persistence)
- offset: Sabra Marie
- armor: Blaidh Golan
- head: Tempered Helm
- boots: Fenwalkers
- rings: Changing Heart + Thorns
- belt: Eoten Constitution
- cloak: Talisman of the Unconquerable
- gloves: Swift Action
- pet: Concelhaut's Skull

 

Quote

Edit: Definitely I will try this build of a guide of yours, it is frontline CC with BotEP, but in your guide you say Dwarf with 9/9/18/17/17/8, I will use Pale Elf with 10-8-18-18-16 - 8, so far my build has always been 17-8-19-10-16-8, but even on "difficult" difficulty, which is where I play, I find little perception, in other games I have varied to 16-8-18 -12-16-8, with similar results.

Those listed stats lines are more like general direction. And depending on specific party composition can be fine-tuned further.

For example Boreal Dwarf on average would be generating a little bit more focus through the game. But I took wood elf, because I wanted extra accuracy with ranged cc vs bosses, and with WoT at the start of combat.

Quote

The team could be:
Eder
Aloth
Durador
Kana
My cipher
??? (Grieving Mother for ranged and additional support? Mm)

Durance is heavily inclined for support. This will make fights slightly longer than with a firepriest hireling.

So if you keep his stats intact, I would advice swapping Aloth for Hiravias in this case. Storms + Dragon Thrashed + acc/survivability buffed by Durance is a good combo. Not to mention ciphers spamming Amplified Wave, and GM making great use of Mental Binding and Whispers of Treason. Additionally you can swap Eder for Pallegina. She will tank... decent enough, but will also provide extra buffs/support to party, something what a fighter can't do.

The only minus of this party, is a slighter weaker hard-cc uptime on bosses. But you can alleviate it by taking Backlash on both ciphers, which is... brokingly strong vs enemies with terrify auras.

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by MaxQuest

[summatsupeer]

My preference for your group would be:

Melee Cipher (focuses on dps & self buffing, can CC if needed if backlash and other members don't have enough)

Paladin (heals + support with a Guarding weapon plus Outworn Buckler then Little Savior)

Chanter (The Drake's Ambassador - offtank fire casting summoning a drake)

Priest (focus on Prayer spells and buffing with spells like Devotions for the Faithful)

Druid (debuffer with stuff like natures mark, sunbeam, tanglefoot, hold beasts and DPS+CC from Returning Storm/Relentless Storm. additonal buffs from moonwell / Form of the Delemgan if needed)

Cipher (CC / enabler as described below)

--------------

Reasoning:

If you don't want your Cipher to be spending so much time and focus casting CC powers i'd advise to add a Druid (Hiravias) with more of a focus on casting to debuff opponents and CC them rather than spirit-shifting.

If you want Grieving Mother for that last position she is good as a CC / Enabler / Support (good Dex + Int, rest average) so i'd focus on powers like Eyestrike, Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding, Recall Agony, Psycovampiric Shield, Puppet Master, Body Attunement, Going Between, Pain Block, Amplified Wave etc.  Recall Agony is a great 2nd level spell that can really help against boss type single targets doing raw damage based on the groups damage, I don't think your might affects this damage.  Throw in Body Attunement (maybe your melee cipher uses this to benefit from the added DR?) to reduce the targets DR and your group + Recall Agony will be doing even more damage.

If using Grieving Mother in that last position I agree with MaxQuest to swap a Druid (Hiravias) in for Aloth.  The Beam powers are defended by Reflex and Druids have many spells that target Reflex plus have the amazing CC storm spells. 

I also agree with him that adding a Paladin in is a good idea as I'm concerned there's a lack of healing if a tank gets focused early by say a group of Lagufaeth.  I think between Durance and a Druid (moonwell) there's enough potential AOE healing that a Paladin can help more with the auras +DR (i think helps more) or +Acc (should be enough other options to add accuracy when needed), direct heals+revive and maybe abilities like Aegis of Loyalty and can even get some more AOE healing at level 13 with Sacred Immolation if needed.  I'd probably drop Eder, assuming your using Kana as a offtank (nice AOE heals to keep topping everyone up) who can do good AOE damage and summon something like a Drake (aka The Drake's Ambassador build) behind opponents for your melee cipher to cast Ectopsychic Echo on, could be a good combo. The paladin can help the tanks survive the earlier parts of fights easier whilst the cipher builds focus and the chanter builds phrases chanted to get to the wanted invocations.  If not using Kana like that then i'd probably swap him for the Paladin and keep a Fighter/Barb/Monk who have mobility ability to combine with your Cipher.

[davoker]

Omg, I have a lot to learn, but I'm slowly seeing how this goes

Ok, I'm going to try the things you tell me, Aloth I like a lot, and Pallegina too, I usually take them in my group, but I think it would be interesting to put Hiravias as you have said instead of Aloth, and for that last position, or Grieving Mother or Pallegina. Eder I like, in general I see good tanke, I see that meets and endures quite well, with Pallegina supporting him makes good team I think.

Well, I'm going to try based on the things you've told me and have such, at the moment my challenge is to kill the Adra Dragon, I have not managed to kill him xD after another challenge, I do not know which haha

Thanks guys!