Can we agree that Rogues, Monks, and Wizards are the top 3 classes?

[Gromnir]

 

Priest are not bottom if it comes to buffing your party. There is no better class to do this.

 

 

y'know, am willing to concede priests is "at the bottom" o' our list o' best poe2 classes.  'course am suspecting our measure is different than other folks, and am also thinking such a ranking is irrelevant and prejudicial (denotative v. connotative.)

 

keep in mind, our worstest poe 1 class were barbarians.  is not 'cause poe 1 barbarians were ineffective we ranked 'em so low.  barbarians were, in point o' fact, powerful and useful in poe 1.  however, contrary to design goals, carnage were a singular class-defining ability.  as such, in spite o' poe flexibility, there were correct ways to build barbarians and those builds required a player to maximize carnage.  obsidian developers liked to observe in interviews and board posts how, unlike other crpgs, a poe barbarian could be a genius and not a dumb muscle-bound brute. *snort* most poe builds o' barbarians were genius 'cause int were so important to barbarians.  is not simple could be genius.  fail to make a genius barbarian were a kinda self handicapping for a barbarian in poe. such singular clarity o' value for the barbarian made an admitted powerful class a clear loser in our mind.  after all, takes no design skill or imagination to make a powerful class.  does take skill to make flexible and dynamic.

 

poe2 priests is...

 

*shrug*

 

have explained ad nauseum what we believe is wrong with poe2 priests and the fixes we believe might improve the class.  repeat here is bordering 'pon spam. regardless, we got loads o' criticism 'bout poe 2 priests.

 

however, to identify worstest o' poe2 classes w/o further explanation is a missing-the-forest-for-the-trees mistake, 'cause worst poe2 class is not same as identifying the class as bad or failing.  no, we got no desire to make our main poe2 character a single-class priest, and such is a result o' design flaws. however, am having found much usefulness from single class priests in our party, and we has also found much enjoyment and variety o' gameplay resulting from a wide range o' priestly multi-classes.  have played through game complete with contemplative, shaman and itinerant main characters, and we have had numerous varieties o' templars included in custom parties. clerics is potential strong, but... am admitted surprised to admit we share boeroer's ineffable absence o' interest in poe2 fighters both single and multiclass. 'pon reflection, the only priest multiclass we ain't got at least 1/2 through game is a celebrant. regardless, given how much time we has invested in priestly characters on potd runs, anybody who tries and tells us priest multi classes is ineffective is gonna be in for a long fight.  similarly, but 'long more subjective lines, convince us o' dearth o' priestly flexibility as a multiclass option will see us resistant.  our single-class priests is largely identical as there is obvious best priest spells at every power tier. bad. however, with multiclass builds am feeling a bit more freedom to indulge in those otherwise situational useful spells which deserved result in contemptuous sneer from most folks.  in fact, am thinking the only two priestly spells we have never utilized on a multiclass priest build is prayer for the body and litany for the body.  

 

poe2 priests is at our bottom, but the poe2 bottom is gonna be stratosphere kinda altitude compared to most crpgs and we would not hesitate to claim poe2 priest is better than poe1 barbarians.  sure, carnage were a more novel gameplay mechanic than is the traditional (and frequent boring) priestly buffing and healing powhaz, but insofar as actual meaningful design qualities is concerned, poe2 priests is a valuable and variable, if flawed, addition to the poe franchise in ways the poe2 barbarian were not. 

 

bottom is not actual much o' a criticism in and of itself. 

 

 

pick a loser. dare you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Yes, the new system hurts priest and druid most it seems.

 

Could have been kind-of-fixed with special trinkets I think...?

 

Because it did the trick for wizards.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

in fact, am thinking the only two priestly spells we have never utilized on a multiclass priest build is prayer for the body and litany for the body.

Litany for the Body is a super long way to get +2 AR pretty easily on a tank, I would say it's easily worth the point without much effort. Prayer, though...

 

Also: with respect I always find your posts a little hard to follow, but are you essentially arguing that priests are "at the bottom" because single-class priests lack a lot of design space? That's an interesting take, sure, but even if there were only one optimal way to build a priest (a sentiment I would disagree with but for sake of argument), if that one optimal is really good I'm not sure I would consider it the bottom. But hey, I guess that's the point of "pick a loser, dare you" (alternative formulation: what do you call the person who graduated last in their class in med school? a doctor)

[thelee]

Yes, the new system hurts priest and druid most it seems.

 

Could have been kind-of-fixed with special trinkets I think...?

 

Because it did the trick for wizards.

I think in this respect druids gets hit the hardest. I actually don't see much of a problem for priests because subclass bonus spells are very varied and frequently pull from other class's ability trees (or are completely unique, like Woedica). Only Eothas kinda gets screwed. Druids, on the other hand, didn't get any really special free spells until 4.0 gave the Ancient. They had more interesting subclass bonuses than priests, but especially at AL8/9 the amount of variance you could have in a druid started getting really tight, especially if you picked a lifegiver or fury and can't even take some of those very few spells at those levels.

Edited February 2, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

I also meant that there is little motivation to pick a situational spell even if it's really good in some cases. Look at Dismissal etc.

[thelee]

I also meant that there is little motivation to pick a situational spell even if it's really good in some cases. Look at Dismissal etc.

 

can't empathize with that viewpoint because every single-class priest i've ever rolled/recruited has picked up dismissal

Edited February 2, 2019 by thelee

[heldred]

 

Priest are not bottom if it comes to buffing your party. There is no better class to do this.

 

 

 

 

 

pick a loser. dare you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Besides being 7 white men, no, none of them are losers, just reflective of the society at the time of the program.  That's a debate for a different forum...

 

Back to a different class struggle, the POE2 winners and losers. 

 

I think we all agree every class can be effective.  We also have unique play styles and our perceptions of "important" and "effective" vary.  However, it is apparent we are really only debating the bottom of the list, not the top.  I don't recall seeing someone claim Wizards aren't effective or Rogues offering little value.  I think it is safe to say, the more beneficial classes of POE2 are: Wiz, Rogue, Cipher, and Chanter because they have unique designs, raw power, and flexibility.  While Fighter, Monk, and Paladin offer great compliments to any multi-class, including the first three I mentioned.  

 

The real debate is around Priest, Druid, Ranger, and Barbarian because they don't offer (as well as other classes):

a) the offensive power of Wiz, Monk, Cipher, or Rogue

b) the defensive staying power of Fighter, Paladin, Rogue (Trickster), Wizard

c) the unique staying power for megaboss fights (or any long battle) like Chanter, Cipher, Fighter (Tactician), or Wiz (Bloodmage)

d) the stacking buffs of a Monk or useful group buffs of Paladin or Chanter

 

There is redundancy in the list above, representing the classes that are overall more beneficial in a build (for my play-style). 

 

Again, there are no bad classes, just some debatable, mediocre options that have moments of brilliance that are overshadowed by the superstars.

Edited February 2, 2019 by heldred

[Boeroer]

 

I also meant that there is little motivation to pick a situational spell even if it's really good in some cases. Look at Dismissal etc.

 

can't empathize with that viewpoint because every single-class priest i've ever rolled/recruited has picked up dismissal

 

Yeah you. But ask around how many didn't because they thought it's too situational to be worth a scarce point at that power level. It only works for lower level vessels and spirits (the raw damage on higher level ones is negligible). Better keep the Red Hand at... hand, have a Pal with Abjuration and/or bring Grave Calling and/or Hel Beckoning - and spend the point for something else. Also the other PL8 spells are rather nice and maybe I want Great Soul if I like empowering my spells. 

 

I never took it. I would take it as no brainer if I had a bigger spell portfolio to cast from. So for example if I could get a trinket like "Berath's call to the Wheel" or so which would give me some additinal spells around vessels and spirits to choose from (like grimoires basically - doesn't even need to be 2 per level) and which I could put into the quick slots as well - that would give me way more room to think about picking a more situational spell at level up.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[the_dog_days]

I would rate rogues the worst class because of their lack of versatility. I don't care how hard one can hit, they can't support or tank whereas every other class can be built to do any of the three.

[AeonsLegend]

Funny. I started using a propperly built single class Cipher Ascendant and it's so strong it's kind of rediculous. I'm halfway through the game and this character dealt over 100K damage wit  a 180 burst. I haven't fought any dragons yet, but that will be very very sad and over very very quickly. Fights that were really hard before are now incredibly easy. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by AeonsLegend

[Boeroer]

The real debate is around Priest [...] and Barbarian because they don't offer (as well as other classes):

a) the offensive power of Wiz, Monk, or Rogue

[...]

d) the stacking buffs of a Monk or useful group buffs of Paladin or Chanter

a)

 

 

 

 

This is a total vanilla barb, no special build. I don't think there's anything like that (offensively) besides special builds like Deltro's Helmet + scrolls, a SC Monk with Mortars that can sustain that much AoE dps while at the same time controlling the battlefield. It's just one ability and you don't have to adapt your build to it. Sure, it's PL 9 - but the statement is falsified with this single observation. 

And then do a Ravager, Warlock, Tempest, Witch (Berseker/Ascendant for example) or Shaman and please judge again if they don't contribute a lot to offensive power.

 

d) Group buffs of a Paladin? You mean besides the auras I presume. Because a Paladin is not good at group buffing compared to a Priest.

Barbs have nice stacking buffs (Frenzy, Bloodlust, Blood Thirst, Shape Ward: Frenzy...).

Edited February 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

You just said above that you think any Ranger multiclass can be always be skipped in favor of Rogue multiclasses. If a multiclass benefits from increased accuracy, like in say reliably applying critical hits for longer duration of afflictions or bonus Pen, then how does a Rogue multiclass achieve that result? Even with an accuracy bonus from a Perception inspiration and Devotions for the Faithful, the +10 from at least using Marked Prey will help create more Crits than not.

Rogue multiclasses generally can afford to spam Crippling Strike for semi-permanent pen boost of 2 points. Also rogue damage bonuses far exceed the effects of a crit, even if it leads to overpenetration. So the only point are the increased effect durations on crit, really. And for that I'd prefer a monk's Int bonus. Who also can have an accuracy buff if ranged - which works VS all, not only single targets.

[Verde]

I would rate rogues the worst class because of their lack of versatility. I don't care how hard one can hit, they can't support or tank whereas every other class can be built to do any of the three.

A Trickster can absolutely tank and Streetfighter is a good multi for tanks to add DPS. Saying you don't care how hard a Rogue can hit is like saying, I don't care how well a Priest can buff, or Ranger increase ACC, or a Wizard nuke, or a Chanter summon, etc...it's one of the main strengths of that class. I don't pick Priests for DPS and then complain about lack of DPS. But even considering that, a Trickster can still tank.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Verde

[srulz]

I completely respect your observation. 

 

The way I play (tanky characters), the defensive gain from multi-class (when following my Column A formula) is incredibly beneficial.  It enabled me to have my entire party face-tank Dorudugan and not experience a single casualty.  It is tough to keep 5-people up (in melee range) in that battle and deal damage to finish him off in under 15 mins.  

 

I agree, some single classes are dynamite and offer exceptional firepower, cc, etc. to a team, but many of them lack tankiness and must "more heavily" rely upon healing, potions, team buffs, etc. to survive the epic battles.

 

Mind sharing your full party composition please? I'm building an AI-based party, so I would really appreciate a party that can apparently tank a megaboss's full attacks.

[Gromnir]

 

in fact, am thinking the only two priestly spells we have never utilized on a multiclass priest build is prayer for the body and litany for the body.

Litany for the Body is a super long way to get +2 AR pretty easily on a tank, I would say it's easily worth the point without much effort. Prayer, though...

 

Also: with respect I always find your posts a little hard to follow, but are you essentially arguing that priests are "at the bottom" because single-class priests lack a lot of design space? That's an interesting take, sure, but even if there were only one optimal way to build a priest (a sentiment I would disagree with but for sake of argument), if that one optimal is really good I'm not sure I would consider it the bottom. But hey, I guess that's the point of "pick a loser, dare you" (alternative formulation: what do you call the person who graduated last in their class in med school? a doctor)

 

 

am gonna note how obsidnaties specific observed during development, more than once, that clear best classes, builds, powhaz and gears were one o' the cardinal crpg mistakes they were attempting to avoid with poe/poe2.  the existence and value o' a plethora o' viable and entertaining builds for a class is functional diminished if there is an "optimal" and "really good" build available as it will act as a kinda lodestone for those who mistaken, but understandable, view crpgs as games which need be won as 'posed to enjoyed.  if the optimal build were viable, entertaining and only pretty good as 'posed to "really," the crpg evhul developers were seeking to avoid would be diminished.  

 

and no, am not thinking there is one specific best priest build, but variation from that best is gonna be small... so small as to render the variation insignificant.  we typical has xoti as off-tanking, which am s'posing is not the most common way to utilize her.  from a practical pov, all such means is we change gear and add the weapon and shield talent. and sure, depending on our party layout, a smallish number o' spell choices will vary 'mongst our dedicated priests... smallish number. small variations. 

 

as for litany of the body, the problem is not lack o' usefulness o' the spell, but what we need sacrifice to acquire. a single-target hardy buff with a long duration is swell, but tier iv priest powhaz is a kinda sweet-spot. if we had played any o' our wael priests multis as a pure tank, then is likely we woulda' chosen litany o' the body as kinda an ego stroke, if nothing else. otherwise? nope. as a debate topic, we may make a good argument for the priestly hardy inspiration, but the reality is it ain't been a choice thus far and likely won't in future 'less we get serious 'bout a wael templar tank.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 2, 2019 by Gromnir

[Elric Galad]

 

Debonair/Wizard...creative! How's that coming?

The Debonaire gets 100% crit conversion on charmed enemies. Beguiler casts Ring Leader, Debonaire then casts whatever friendly fire spell (direct damage like Fireball etc mostly, since targets flip after getting damaged). All his hits get converted to crits which takes away the PEN issue completely and gives yome nice bonus damage (with Precognition and Improved Crits is a +60% damage, sometimes even overpenetration). DoTs like Pernicious Cloud are also good since they get +50% duration. You need something that does friendly fire - or you choose single target spells. Most of them can be targeted on allies (Necrotic Lance etc.).  

 

 

This reminds me of Entropy (Druid PL 8 ) .

I wish its description of Entropy was more clear. 

I'm wondering how many Hits are converted to Crits before it wears off...

Edited February 2, 2019 by Elric Galad

[heldred]

 

The real debate is around Priest [...] and Barbarian because they don't offer (as well as other classes):

a) the offensive power of Wiz, Monk, or Rogue

[...]

d) the stacking buffs of a Monk or useful group buffs of Paladin or Chanter

a)

 

 

 

 

This is a total vanilla barb, no special build. I don't think there's anything like that (offensively) besides special builds like Deltro's Helmet + scrolls, a SC Monk with Mortars that can sustain that much AoE dps while at the same time controlling the battlefield. It's just one ability and you don't have to adapt your build to it. Sure, it's PL 9 - but the statement is falsified with this single observation.

And then do a Ravager, Warlock, Tempest, Witch (Berseker/Ascendant for example) or Shaman and please judge again if they don't contribute a lot to offensive power.

 

d) Group buffs of a Paladin? You mean besides the auras I presume. Because a Paladin is not good at group buffing compared to a Priest.

Barbs have nice stacking buffs (Frenzy, Bloodlust, Blood Thirst, Shape Ward: Frenzy...).

I completely agree for a play style focused on AOE damage, but that build would “probably” become a liability with Dorudugan. None of the main/regular battles are ever an issue, so killing the screen in 15s Vs. 30s really isn’t a goal for me. My playstyle just wants to face-tank encounters without the need to hide, pull, protect a companion, etc. and then keep the same build for megabosses, using the same brute-force, no-weak-links philosophy.

 

Regarding Ravager, Warlock, Tempest and Witch...

 

If you want damage first and survivabikity second, they are all good at DPS, but not even the best. Going deeper...

Ravager is really more about the Monk, but suffers from average defenses

Warlock is really the Mage shining, and adding Fighter, Monk, or Rogue to Wiz were all more consistent DPS for me

Tempest is a bit squishy for me, but a Rogue can put down the same damage and offer more defenses

Witch is fun, but squishier compared to adding Pali or Fighter to Cipher

 

Barbs are decent, but outside of a hand-mortar, single-class build, they add little to the party in multi, compared to other classes in the parts bin, especially when considering balancing survivabikity.

Edited February 2, 2019 by heldred

[djinnxy]

I'm working on making trickster/tactician work vs Dorudugan. I can come close to making it work without cheesing it. Possibly on this respec. It works well against most things with a riposte, high disengagement and deflection. For Dorudugan I respecced twice already. Third time may do it. The trick is to vanish for 2 rounds and step back to gain brilliant tactician and re-engage. I tried with battleaxe modal and with blinding strike gouging strike, but if you are doing ongoing dot damage to it it seems to not allow brilliant from disappearing and disengaging. I'm working on whittling it down with animancer blade. A few attacks before he spams the fire and then retreat and repeat.

 

The main things are to have renewable resources first and foremost then high accuracy, deflection, and fortitude. If every other class could just spam skeletons it would certainly even the odds.

[heldred]

Great build idea for Doru... I like anything Tactician for mega boss battles. I was trying a solo Tactician/Bloodmage as well, but DPS isn’t quite there yet.

[djinnxy]

Great build idea for Doru... I like anything Tactician for mega boss battles. I was trying a solo Tactician/Bloodmage as well, but DPS isn’t quite there yet.

 

It is weak on electric and then blunt. Of course it helps to bypass armor so anything raw or minoletta's. I haven't tried it but my take would be to use the summons, electric, and ball and chain with the flail modal to take down it's dex. I'd try moonwell scrolls and ofc wall of draining. Whether I take it down with what I've got now or not that might be my next project. I've got it down to almost hurt. Really slow on turn based.

Edited February 3, 2019 by djinnxy

[heldred]

Doru in turn-based mode would be like reading War and Peace on single postcards mailed once a day :0