Can we agree that Rogues, Monks, and Wizards are the top 3 classes?

[thelee]

one thing that would mess up the initial rating is the wtffail of forbidden fist monk. if we're taking an average of the subclasses, that hurts the monk's standing quite a bit on its own.

 

really you'd have to break out the subclasses and rank them alongside vanilla classes. re: wizard, i would put blood mages over the top, but possibly transmuters worse than other wizard variants. similarly, chanters in general are pretty good, but i think there's a pretty clear tiering between the various subclasses (troubadour, anyone?) and as for cipher, i could go either way for most of them, but wild mind deserves to sit in the corner along with foribdden fist.

[Boeroer]

Yes, Wild Mind is pretty objectionable.

 

Even if the Forbidden Curse stuff was fixed: the wound generation of the Forbidden Fist is so inferior. I don't know how they are going to fix that. Maybe give 2 wounds on affl. expiration and make the curse real short or so...

[Dr <3]

The only thing i dislike much of chipers is that some super good powers ( es: amplified wave) need an ally target to be casted. You CAN'T hit yourself neither a charmed target. No problem at all in a party, but a big pain when soloing. At least in deadfire afaik the animal companion make for a valid target.

[Boeroer]

Yes, you need to multiclass with Ranger to make that happen. They should really make a passive that lets you cast such things on either mind controlled enemies or directly on enemies.

 

By the way: can you cast such powers directly on enemies if you are confused?

 

And speaking of Ranger and Ciphers: can you cast Reaping Knives on a fellow's animal companion?

[Marigoldran]

Summon ancient weapons and cast reaping knives on them.  

[heldred]

COLUMN A

Fighters, Paladins, Rogues (Tricksters), and Wizards (self buffs) are best to add Defensive Endurance to any multi-class.

 

COLUMN B

Rogues and Monks are best to add Offensive Punch to any multi-class.

 

COLUMN C

Chanters, Priests, Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers offer a blend of CC, Group Buffs, Summons, Ranged Damage, and/or Healing

 

 

I always play on POTD and/or DeadlyDeadfire Mod (v3.0 and under), so I make all of my classes relatively tanky.  This criteria makes defensive capabilities a prerequisite and I "always" take something from COLUMN A , then adding something from COLUMNS  B or C.  

 

For "Single" classes, there are only a handful that gain something "great" in the outer levels: Wizard, Priest, Monk, Cipher, and Barbarian (opinion).

 

In summary, which classes are the overall best... for me, any class in COLUMN A.  A party comprised of choices from COLUMN A are never in trouble (fear for life alone) and still can bring damage, healing, cc, etc. when paired with other multi-class selections (Columns B or C).  I believe solo classes are inferior, due to scrolls, potions, and the synergy afforded between certain multi-class combos, most notably the Defensive Classes (see Column A).  This is why my analysis brings me squarely back to Column A...

 

My God Tier awards go to:

Wizards (provides massive defensive boast and firepower, with the added flexibility of grimoires)

Rogues (can be a defensive boon with Tricksters, or an offensive boast with general sneak-attack/flanking powers)

Paladins (blend of auras and defensive power)

Fighters (raw endurance and some nice melee perks)

 

My Demigod Tier awards go to:

Chanter (best offensive staying power for long battles... think megabosses)

Monks (for game-breaking self-buffs, but just lacks defensive endurance)

Ciphers (for unique multi-class synergy and overall utility)

 

Honorable Mentions:

Druids (decent offensive spells and healing, that needs paring with God Tier for endurance)

Priest (see Druid description above)

 

Can skip, because everything else is better multi-class

Ranger (just take Rogue)

Barbarian (just take Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, or Monk) 

 

Please note, these are the "Parts-Bin" Awards for multi-class.  The really difficult analysis is actually determining the effectiveness of the full multi-class combos (e.g., Wiz/Fighter vs. Wiz/Monk).  The point of my analysis is you really can never go wrong if you pair anything with COLUMN A (solo or group play).

Edited February 1, 2019 by heldred

[thelee]

priest of wael really should belong to your column A, makes me reiterate that we really should be talking about subclasses because some subclasses are so transformative to the experience (like how you call out trickster).

 

also, barbarians are real great. I've never done deadly deadfire mod, but I don't understand how they couldn't be considered in at least column B (possibly column A).

Edited February 1, 2019 by thelee

[DozingDragon]

I also do not see how Rangers are horrible, as they get some of the best accuracy bonuses in a game where stackable accuracy bonuses are as rare as hen’s teeth.

[heldred]

I also do not see how Rangers are horrible, as they get some of the best accuracy bonuses in a game where stackable accuracy bonuses are as rare as hen’s teeth.

 

Mid-to-late game, accuracy really isn't an issue (especially with equipment options, buffs, and treating PER as a god stat.

 

No class is "bad," you just find more potential in other classes in comparison.  

[heldred]

priest of wael really should belong to your column A, makes me reiterate that we really should be talking about subclasses because some subclasses are so transformative to the experience (like how you call out trickster).

 

also, barbarians are real great. I've never done deadly deadfire mod, but I don't understand how they couldn't be considered in at least column B (possibly column A).

 

You are correct, Priest of Wael does provide good defense, but Mage does it 2x better...

 

As for Barbs, they are good, but the other classes are better in multi-class setups, unless pairing with a Column A choice, but it really seems wasteful.  I do point out they are good single-class options...  but multi is more powerful, especially in team tactics and survivability (megabosses).

[Boeroer]

In my experience in a party often single classes are better after the early game. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Boeroer

[DozingDragon]

 

I also do not see how Rangers are horrible, as they get some of the best accuracy bonuses in a game where stackable accuracy bonuses are as rare as hen’s teeth.

 

Mid-to-late game, accuracy really isn't an issue (especially with equipment options, buffs, and treating PER as a god stat.

 

No class is "bad," you just find more potential in other classes in comparison.  

 

 

You just said above that you think any Ranger multiclass can be always be skipped in favor of Rogue multiclasses.  If a multiclass benefits from increased accuracy, like in say reliably applying critical hits for longer duration of afflictions or bonus Pen, then how does a Rogue multiclass achieve that result?  Even with an accuracy bonus from a Perception inspiration and Devotions for the Faithful, the +10 from at least using Marked Prey will help create more Crits than not.  

[heldred]

 

 

I also do not see how Rangers are horrible, as they get some of the best accuracy bonuses in a game where stackable accuracy bonuses are as rare as hen’s teeth.

 

Mid-to-late game, accuracy really isn't an issue (especially with equipment options, buffs, and treating PER as a god stat.

 

No class is "bad," you just find more potential in other classes in comparison.  

 

 

You just said above that you think any Ranger multiclass can be always be skipped in favor of Rogue multiclasses.  If a multiclass benefits from increased accuracy, like in say reliably applying critical hits for longer duration of afflictions or bonus Pen, then how does a Rogue multiclass achieve that result?  Even with an accuracy bonus from a Perception inspiration and Devotions for the Faithful, the +10 from at least using Marked Prey will help create more Crits than not.  

 

 

I'm saying:

1) I don't think any of my characters ever have a base PER under 16, typically go 17-18 to start.  This makes accuracy less of a concern, start to finish (PER is the god-stat).

2) Mid-late game, Accuracy is no longer an issue, so I go for debilitating status-effects or more damage.

[heldred]

In my experience in a party often single classes are better after the early game. 

 

I completely respect your observation. 

 

The way I play (tanky characters), the defensive gain from multi-class (when following my Column A formula) is incredibly beneficial.  It enabled me to have my entire party face-tank Dorudugan and not experience a single casualty.  It is tough to keep 5-people up (in melee range) in that battle and deal damage to finish him off in under 15 mins.  

 

I agree, some single classes are dynamite and offer exceptional firepower, cc, etc. to a team, but many of them lack tankiness and must "more heavily" rely upon healing, potions, team buffs, etc. to survive the epic battles. 

[DozingDragon]

 

 

 

I also do not see how Rangers are horrible, as they get some of the best accuracy bonuses in a game where stackable accuracy bonuses are as rare as hen’s teeth.

 

Mid-to-late game, accuracy really isn't an issue (especially with equipment options, buffs, and treating PER as a god stat.

 

No class is "bad," you just find more potential in other classes in comparison.  

 

 

You just said above that you think any Ranger multiclass can be always be skipped in favor of Rogue multiclasses.  If a multiclass benefits from increased accuracy, like in say reliably applying critical hits for longer duration of afflictions or bonus Pen, then how does a Rogue multiclass achieve that result?  Even with an accuracy bonus from a Perception inspiration and Devotions for the Faithful, the +10 from at least using Marked Prey will help create more Crits than not.  

 

 

I'm saying:

1) I don't think any of my characters ever have a base PER under 16, typically go 17-18 to start.  This makes accuracy less of a concern, start to finish (PER is the god-stat).

2) Mid-late game, Accuracy is no longer an issue, so I go for debilitating status-effects or more damage.

 

So then why are Ranger multiclasses worth skipping?  If Perception is a "god-stat" presumably due to the accuracy bonus, then why would a consistent and stackable accuracy buff be worthless, especially if you could, I don't know, increase a character's Might or Intellect instead to get more "debilitating status-effects or more damage?"  

[Verde]

Is it accurate to say that Rangers are a lot less appealing on Veteran?

[Ensign]

What one thinks of Ranger largely reflects how they feel about animal companions, in my experience. If you think they are a liability, bonded grief waiting to happen, then yeah Ranger is pretty terrible. If you see them as an extra engaging body and supplemental DPS they probably look strong.

 

Main issue with Ranger in my mind is the lack of a really transformational subclass or overtuned abilities that you build around. Stuff like Trickster or Tactician push those classes to another level and Ranger has nothing comparable.

[thelee]

What one thinks of Ranger largely reflects how they feel about animal companions, in my experience. If you think they are a liability, bonded grief waiting to happen, then yeah Ranger is pretty terrible. If you see them as an extra engaging body and supplemental DPS they probably look strong.

 

Main issue with Ranger in my mind is the lack of a really transformational subclass or overtuned abilities that you build around. Stuff like Trickster or Tactician push those classes to another level and Ranger has nothing comparable.

 

I think for hte patient Hunter's Claw helps fill that role for rangers, but it requires a lot of metagame knowledge to when to and the patience to actually build up the stacks (and not playing on Woedica's or Eothas's challenge).

Edited February 2, 2019 by thelee

[heldred]

Stacking accuracy is helpful, but if you already have a good base, it isn't critical.

 

 

None of my characters have a base PER under 16, typically go 17-18 to start.  This makes accuracy less of a concern, start to finish.  By mid-to-late game, accuracy is no longer an issue, so I go for debilitating status-effects or more damage. 

 

In the late game, there are diminishing returns of accuracy... At level 20, you have a huge base accuracy, all your specialty skills, legendary weapons, +PER/ACC items, and usually access to base PER buff (e.g., insightful). 

 

It is always helpful to have more accuracy, but I wouldn't select an entire class to gain more accuracy.  After a certain level of accuracy, unless going for a crit-build, I don't miss it.

Edited February 2, 2019 by heldred

[thelee]

In the late game, there are diminishing returns of accuracy... At level 20, you have a huge base accuracy, all your specialty skills, legendary weapons, +PER/ACC items, and usually access to base PER buff (e.g., insightful).

spells and consumables don't benefit from legendary scaling, and consumables in particular don't benefit from PER, so generic accuracy bonus (like which the ranger has huge access to) can be massive improvement.

 

EDIT: though i find that even with top-end gear, in FS and with megabosses accuracy is still a concern even for mythic-weapon characters. acc buffs and deflection debuffs (either directly or in the form of PER/RES affliction/inspirations) are still useful.

Edited February 2, 2019 by thelee

[Boeroer]

I also think that with the DLCs and Megabosses you can never have enough ACC.

 

Playing a Bleak Hunter/Arcane Archer with Spearcaster atm. The ACC is stellar obviously (two times ACC bonus from Arcana plus Ranger stuff plus party buffs). And it's so helpful - also to tackle higher level bounties and so on.

 

Speaking of Hunter's Claw: you can speed up the build-up of ACC if you use a blunderbuss in the mainhand and a melee weapon in the offhand. Use Driving Flight to get up to 8 ACC per use of Hunter's Claw. Also works with the upgrades of course.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Besides the mega bosses I find the enemies defenses rather low compared to PoE1, especially the deflection. Ironically, the greatest benefit of accuracy in PoE2 is to eliminate grazes, not to do more crits.

[Boeroer]

I think it also heavily depends on how early you want to tackle certain encounters (bounties etc.) in order to get certain gear earlier. The highest obstacles there are high defenses and AR. High ACC helps with both.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

I never find high AR to be a problem because there are always weaknesses+buffs+afflictions and I certainly won't count on crits to penetrate armor.

[Boeroer]

If you face higher level enemies with high defenses and high AR then high ACC surely will help you overcome both. I didn't say that I rely on crits to penetrate armor. I said that it helps. Lots of grazes still means a lot of dps loss - no matter the crits.