Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[thelee]

why are people talking about brilliant? did i miss some change?  I thought it always get +1 random spell for casters.

[guildwriter]

You could add Helm of Grotto Deep (+2 Poison PL I think) if you are willing to give up Nature Godlike, and Spider Silk Robe (+2 Poison PL) .... because a few of the beast/plant spells are also keyworded to poison (counter:antidote) and it might buff them further, like Plague of Insects I think, Vile Thorns, and Venombloom?  Also if you stack Alchemy skill which apparently still affects poison damage, though I'm not sure how much ....

 

 

 

The thing with druid spells is once you get Great Malstrom, there's really no going back ...

On a solo druid I have a hard time figuring out how to build for survival and not let the long cast times get me down.

 

One thing to consider is that since there's only a few key plant/beast spells you want, go Lifegiver to also get free healing spell power picks and +2 heal PL, then supplement with the Beast/Plant/poison stuff.... not sure you need to go Ancient, or if it's worth it.

 

 

As far as I can tell it seems like +Poison PL and Alchemy no longer affect Druid spells.  So the Ancient +PL bonus is significant.  Specifically because of the multiplicative esque effect the +PL bonus to damage offers.  Which is especially important if you plan on going with a DoT build.  Another thing to remember about Animist is that it does get more summon spells than other Druid classes as Summon Sporlings is a unique spell.  There's also the giant growth esque spell, but honestly I feel like it needs a bit of a boost or at least some method of scaling with PL beyond duration.  

 

As far as solo I see the following classes as options:

• Tactician - You do have Sunbeam to cause mass flanked, but the issue is that the spell's range is tiny.  And it's the only option.  Brilliant Tactician is also slightly bugged.  Also Refreshing Defenses will override Moonwell.  So unlimited resources, but more than several downsides and difficult to pull off.
• Trickster - Mirrored will stack with Moonwell.  Can get really high defenses esp. with sword and board.  Limited resources but honestly that should be enough for most content as we have a lot of efficient DoTs. (Pernicious, Insect Swarm, Plague of Maggots, Venombloom, etc).  Also covers the heal hole.  Get Blackened or Plainated Plate and go for it or Gipon for the stacking Deflection and flanked immunity.  Pretty sure we can either achieve the unhittable cap or tickle it under certain circumstances with this build.
• Goldpact or Woedican Paladin - So Armor stacking speaks for itself.  Combined with the Woodskin or Form of the Demlegan, ranged enemies are going to cry (different types of armor bonuses so should stack) allowing you to use Spine of Thicket Green with the modal with impunity.  Woedican Paladin is fun for this build as hitting afflicted targets as a Woedican Paladin heals them for a percentage of damage dealt.  

I'd say a larger issue for a solo Druid build is accuracy.

[Takkik]

Ok wasn't long, tactician already nerfed. Now you only gain discipline back when interrupting an ability cast. Need to test how it affect the subclass.

[VeritasWaits]

 

Brilliant is 'useless' for cipher (or could be great for the new psion).

It's bad even for psion. Use 70 focus and some time on cast and recovery, in order to get 20-30 focus back...

One thing to keep in mind though is that gaining Brilliant through a Tactitian multiclass is essentially free as long as you can reliably maintain the requirements. So instead of a poor resource trade for casting Ancestor's Memory it's more like a "gain +10 focus every 6 seconds" passive in the best case scenario. Would Ciphers take that passive if it was in their tree? I think they would, yeah. It's probably the least impactful use of Brilliant among all the classes (I'd rather see it restore a percentage of your total focus pool per tick), but it's still good if you basically get it for free. An Ascendant psyblade would reach Super Saiyan mode much faster, especially in the first half of the game where +10 focus is a bigger chunk of your total pool and dealing damage isn't quite as easy. Soulblades just gain more focus to SA dump. It would be useful for a Psion, but Psion seems to want caster multiclassing rather than martial since they lose soul whip so I don't think it's a good mix. And Beguilers can...uh...hmmm...

 

For Chanter I actually think that a Crit focused Devoted/Skald War Caller will generate new phrases much faster anyway if that's what you're aiming for, so I don't much see the point of Tactitian there.

[Exanos]

 

As far as I can tell it seems like +Poison PL and Alchemy no longer affect Druid spells.  So the Ancient +PL bonus is significant.  Specifically because of the multiplicative esque effect the +PL bonus to damage offers.  Which is especially important if you plan on going with a DoT build.  Another thing to remember about Animist is that it does get more summon spells than other Druid classes as Summon Sporlings is a unique spell.  There's also the giant growth esque spell, but honestly I feel like it needs a bit of a boost or at least some method of scaling with PL beyond duration.  

 

[...]

 

I'd say a larger issue for a solo Druid build is accuracy.

 

Quite sad if +Poison/Alchemy don't affect druid's spells anymore. The RP touch of an "evil" sorcerer (druid+wizard) spreading plague and poison in aoe appeal me. Would fit nicely with my assasin/skaen priest. Anyway, it's probably still very viable in a full party comp.

 

Except Chromoprismatic Staff, there is no +PL Decay item right?

 

But honestly, what i really hope for is  PL impacting all aspects of summoned creatures (Healt/Damage/Pen/Armor/Resistance), not only the duration. It would make summons build enjoyable in POTD Upscalled.  Right now, summons are (mostly) just meatshield in highter difficulty. I miss the impact of summonig the Elementals Princes in Baldur's Gate or a Pit Fiend (Planetar was maybe a bit too much tought ). Please OBS, you have made already make a really nice work with this game, let us enjoy summoning really scary monster! 

[Sergeant Arch Dornan]

One question about Bellower Chanter. Did I understand right that invocations grant PL bonus when they are casted with extra phrases, but max amount of phrases is stll capped by cost of the most expensive invocation? And actually we have downgraded base chanter until PL3.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Sergeant Arch Dornan

[guildwriter]

Except Chromoprismatic Staff, there is no +PL Decay item right?

 

But honestly, what i really hope for is  PL impacting all aspects of summoned creatures (Healt/Damage/Pen/Armor/Resistance), not only the duration. It would make summons build enjoyable in POTD Upscalled.  Right now, summons are (mostly) just meatshield in highter difficulty. I miss the impact of summonig the Elementals Princes in Baldur's Gate or a Pit Fiend (Planetar was maybe a bit too much tought ). Please OBS, you have made already make a really nice work with this game, let us enjoy summoning really scary monster! 

 

 

As far as I know, yeah.  Hopefully the DLC adds some interesting items like BoW. SSS items are pretty zzz.  Items that enable new and creative approaches to the game without doing wildly OP things like recursive effects are best.

 

There are a lot of abilities that should have scaling benefits.  SSS is really showing the weaknesses of Assassin/Skaen right now.  Bloated health pools, impossible to reset combat, enemies that magically know where you are and follow you despite being stealthed, and so on.  With backstabs being so ineffective I need to resort to some really cheesy tactics to clear fights (drop gouging on everything using Dragon's Dowry and spam Withdraw scrolls).

[Frak]

One question about Bellower Chanter. Did I understand right that invocations grant PL bonus when they are casted with extra phrases, but max amount of phrases is stll capped by cost of the most expensive invocation? And actually we have downgraded base chanter until PL3.

 

Nope! It's not extra phrases that grants bonus to PL. It's the already stored phrases that grants the bonus.

 

If you cast a PL 5 invocation (with 7 phrases stored) you get a 'based on 7 PL bonus' of some kind.

[Sergeant Arch Dornan]

 

One question about Bellower Chanter. Did I understand right that invocations grant PL bonus when they are casted with extra phrases, but max amount of phrases is stll capped by cost of the most expensive invocation? And actually we have downgraded base chanter until PL3.

 

Nope! It's not extra phrases that grants bonus to PL. It's the already stored phrases that grants the bonus.

 

If you cast a PL 5 invocation (with 7 phrases stored) you get a 'based on 7 PL bonus' of some kind.

 

Ah, so that's how it works. Thx for the help. Will give it a try. 

[Exanos]

 

 

As far as I know, yeah.  Hopefully the DLC adds some interesting items like BoW. SSS items are pretty zzz.  Items that enable new and creative approaches to the game without doing wildly OP things like recursive effects are best.

 

There are a lot of abilities that should have scaling benefits.  SSS is really showing the weaknesses of Assassin/Skaen right now.  Bloated health pools, impossible to reset combat, enemies that magically know where you are and follow you despite being stealthed, and so on.  With backstabs being so ineffective I need to resort to some really cheesy tactics to clear fights (drop gouging on everything using Dragon's Dowry and spam Withdraw scrolls).

 

Couldn't agree more. Will try the new vet difficulty (apparently there is more mobs now).

 

I know adjusting difficulty is really a hard work but, as you said, bloated healtpools and increasing armor is a huge no-no (a little buff to resistances if fine). Instead, you can :

- improve ai

- add new skills to ennemy

- add more ennemy

- increase damage received

- decrease healing received

- reduce duration of inspiration / increase duration of affliction

- reduce aoe

- etc....

 

But a backstab with a 2h should flat down an unprotected squishy, no matter what. 

[guildwriter]

Part of the problem is any benefit they give to us will be mirrored as well on the NPC side as well.  So if they increase backstab damage with level, enemy rogues will scale as well with backstab.  As there are no stealth cancel or detection abilities, rogues would get super cancerous fast.  Can you imagine what a full rogue fight all with shadowing beyond and eliminating blow would look like?

 

Still I wish my backstabs didn't feel so damn ineffective.

[Takkik]

I'm not a fan of adding some bonus to all enemies like they did (and most dev do). Increasing armor, deflection, accuracy etc... just force you to optimise and use some specific abilities. Not much tactics.

 

The problem of backstab is that it just give you a +x% and don't work with dual wielding. It was already suggested when the game came out, but the bonus could be replaced by a specific amount of dmg not depending of the weapon that could scale with PL (add the dmg to your attack), so it would be more dagger friendly, the weapon of choice for an assassin. If you're dualweilding, just increase the dmg (only apply once).

Another problem is the guile cost and time to setup. Why not add a +x guile when you kill a target with backstab?

Like for ring the bell, backstab could add a specific debuff depending of the primary weapon you use. Dagger : Bleeding. Mace : stun. Two handed sword : prone etc...

 

I would just love a tactician version of the rogue that can regenerate resource.

[guildwriter]

I'm not a fan of adding some bonus to all enemies like they did (and most dev do). Increasing armor, deflection, accuracy etc... just force you to optimise and use some specific abilities. Not much tactics.

 

The problem of backstab is that it just give you a +x% and don't work with dual wielding. It was already suggested when the game came out, but the bonus could be replaced by a specific amount of dmg not depending of the weapon that could scale with PL (add the dmg to your attack), so it would be more dagger friendly, the weapon of choice for an assassin. If you're dualweilding, just increase the dmg (only apply once).

Another problem is the guile cost and time to setup. Why not add a +x guile when you kill a target with backstab?

Like for ring the bell, backstab could add a specific debuff depending of the primary weapon you use. Dagger : Bleeding. Mace : stun. Two handed sword : prone etc...

 

I would just love a tactician version of the rogue that can regenerate resource.

 

You're speaking my language brother.  There's so much that could be done to enhance the stealth gameplay in this game.  I tried to make dual dagger work on my Assassin/Skaen but it was just too painful.  

 

I've been trying to make Tactician/Assassin work but the implementation is super finicky and there are a lot of other issues.  Like all high level rogues having slippery mind and thus being immune to distracted meaning the only way to flank them is with another person.  

[Takkik]

the rogue need a specific way to generate guile, the tactician is too much focused on teamwork (for the brilliant tactician ability).

 

You could get something like while invisible the rogue get the brilliant inspiration, encouraging him to stay invisible longer & preparing next attack. Anything that promote preparing stealth attack that take too much time & resource in a team fight. Assassin is more about solo run right now.

[Gregorovich]

Furyshaper is mentioned only a few times, so it seems to be offtop;

 

Anyway, I remember Boeroer mentioning too low ACC of the fear ward. So,  I have just checked it and it seems, that it scales with character level: it had 84 ACC 30 base plus 54 from the level (19th level Multi-barb) Actually that seems to be a good thing.

[Exanos]

Part of the problem is any benefit they give to us will be mirrored as well on the NPC side as well.  So if they increase backstab damage with level, enemy rogues will scale as well with backstab.  As there are no stealth cancel or detection abilities, rogues would get super cancerous fast.  Can you imagine what a full rogue fight all with shadowing beyond and eliminating blow would look like?

 

Still I wish my backstabs didn't feel so damn ineffective.

 

 

Buffing backstab is not necessary the way to go. Actually, they just need to not buff ennemy HP and armor to nobrainer amount. I have no issue with ennemy rogue being very deadly in close quarter if they don't have epic resistance : there is a lot of "instant" cc and panic button to deal with it (it's a party game after all ). 

 

On highter difficulty : nerf actual ennemy HP/armor and nerf party aoe radius, this way party member specializing in 1v1 would feel usefull. 

[Boeroer]

Furyshaper is mentioned only a few times, so it seems to be offtop;

 

Anyway, I remember Boeroer mentioning too low ACC of the fear ward. So,  I have just checked it and it seems, that it scales with character level: it had 84 ACC 30 base plus 54 from the level (19th level Multi-barb) Actually that seems to be a good thing.

Yeah I reported that in beta 4.0.0.0018 (right when it came out, Furyshaper was the first thing I tested). I got a response that they'll look into it and now it seems with 4.0.0.0025 they fixed that issue.

 

Like they did with Tactician's Interrupt-based refund of Discipline.

 

The wards are damn squishy and the debuff from a destroyed Ward is hefty, but the effects are damn nice. Remember that it's still a full-fledged Barb! 

I didn't really play with this subclass (only tinkered around a bit), but I guess Furyshaper could become my new favorite Barb subclass.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Quick update on the Arcane Archer:

 

- AoE weapons like mortars and rods+Blast now only trigger one imbue effect per shot (AoE hits don't trigger imbues). 

 

- Driving Flight and all sorts of jumps will trigger an imbue spell with every jump (intended) - Watershaper's Focus is once again top notch because it can have 2 jumps with Driving Flight...

 

- Multiprojectile weapons still not fixed (first hit will trigger imbue, consecutive projectiless get omitted). QA is looking into it.

 

- AoE weapons don't work with the Driving Flight's multi-triggering I mentioned above! Seems the devs prevented multi-triggering of imbue spels on AoE-attacks from weapons completely. I guess that's not intended - I did report it. Mortars can't switch off their AoE so they can't trigger imbue spells multiple times with Driving Flight. Rods can if you switch off Blast. As soon as Blast is on Driving Flight will stop proccing additional spells. 

[Gregorovich]

About Arcane Archer Imbued spells. Do they scale with the character's PL?

[Boeroer]

Didn't test, sorry.

[Gregorovich]

Furyshaper seems to be the most potent barbarian subclass for a ranged damage-dealer, as you're able to stay close to your casters and protect them from melee foes, especially rogues, with fear ward or buff their cast speed with the frenzy one. But in such case it is better as multiclassed

[ngta2611]

Evoker passive should apply on Arcane Archer's imbued arrow (fire ball, minoletta), yes?
Can anyone re-confirm this? I tested a little bit and it seems it doesn't but it should right?

[Gregorovich]

Well, I checked the firethrower's gloves, which give you bonus PL with Evocation. They had no influence on imbued spells, at least before the recent beta update.

Actual problem is that character's PL does no affect the imbued spells. So they are like 1st level wizard. That's too big drawback at the moment

Edited December 6, 2018 by Gregorovich

[Boeroer]

They don't seem to scale with PL (at least not ACC or PEN - dmg is hard to check since PL adds base damage and you can only determine that with many dmg rolls if there's no tooltip like in this case). But I just saw a dmg roll of 6.1 for Missiles which usually only have 6 base damage. So maybe PL affects the dmg roll.

 

The spells' ACC scales with Arcana and other ACC buffs of the ranger - which leads to very high numbers - for a spell I mean. Easy to land them. Especially in case of Imbue:Eora that's pretty neat. It's cool if you as a Ranger can cast this spell and the Wizard can do other stuff then.

 

Also the attack speed and recovery are that of the weapon, not the spells - also good in most cases.

 

The low (non-scaling) PEN is really really bad though.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Nick’s looking into it; he said they want these spells to scale like normal spells.