TV's Vast Wasteland

[majestic]

I find it hard to get behind "x in name only"-type arguments. "Coffee" refers to the toasted beans of a particular plant, so anything that isn't that, isn't coffee by definition. In contrast, Star Trek *is* whatever they slap the franchise name on. Which is kind of a problem with art in general.

 

You're right, it's not a good argument insofar as Star Trek isn't an established product that needs to fulfill certain criteria to be called such. I still think the analogy works well enough to showcase the issues fans have with Star Trek discovery and that they're not simply drinking your coffee black vs. taking it with cream and sugar type issues.

 

Maybe cheese and vegan cheese might have been better. But it wouldn't have played as well off SM117's original line. Some style over substance must be allowed. Rule of cool and all.

 

I'm fairly lenient when it comes to changes if the final product is worthwhile. Or at least becomes so, something that happend with e.g. Stargate Universe which arguably made even a worse transition from goofy fun sci-fi to a character based drama with a sci-fi background (because the new Battlestar Galactica was hot at the time). Fans didn't like it because it was too different from the other Stargate shows.

 

I liked Stargate Universe and the new Battlestar Galactica (up until that final half a season at least).

 

STD is... bad Star Trek and bad TV. By all rights I shouldn't even be watching this. I still do largely because I'm a little Sheldon when it comes to watching TV shows especially if they feature season or show spanning storylines and it's on Netflix anyway.

 

That being said, when a show induces facepalming literally within the first five minutes and it doesn't stop happening until I close the browser, that's maybe a bad sign. I really wanted to like this show. The protagonist being an obvious STRONG BLACK WOMAN with hardly any flaws bar her own awesomeness doesn't bother me excessively. The redesigned klingons get a pass as far as I'm concerned. The nonsense about the fungus network engine can work if it takes a backseat to interesting plots.

 

The problem is, it never really does. What is this show even supposed to be about? Does Kurtzman know? So all I see is Star Trek: CURRENT YEAR, where the obviously overweight female cadet beats the visibly fit male Asian in a half-marathon after taking a few minutes to talk to herself. After a few tear-jerking scenes about how mommy never loved me enough and RAPE, one or two deus ex machina with some neato VFX interspersed, the credits roll. And instead of food for thought, I'm left in my chair with one question: why do I bother?

 

disclaimer: I do in fact shave my neck

 

I don't think Kurtzman knows anything at all. Everything he did resulted in being a jumbled mess with flashy visuals and Discovery is no different. Maybe they could hire Orci and Lindelof to help him for any further seasons, wouldn't that be aweseome?

 

edit:

 

 

 

We've been watching a lot of Trek, some DS9 but mostly TOS as my wife had never seen it. She never liked Kirk from the JJ movies but after seeing OG Kirk in action he's no longer her least favorite captain. 

 

With my recent Star Trek rewatching (currently in the middle of TNG) I've learned two things:

 

1. TOS holds up really well, production values nonwithstanding of course.
2. TNG's first two seasons no longer seem so bad after Tillybabble and Archerboredom.

Edited February 16, 2019 by majestic

[213374U]

We've been watching a lot of Trek, some DS9 but mostly TOS as my wife had never seen it. She never liked Kirk from the JJ movies but after seeing OG Kirk in action he's no longer her least favorite captain.

 

But... Burnham isn't a captain (yet).

 

To be honest, I don't find her all that unlikeable. If they can hit the sweet spot between the silly robot-like behavior of early S1 and her "i cri evrytiem" S2 demeanor, she might grow into something interesting. The concept of a human child being raised as a vulcan isn't bad, but they didn't need to make her Spock's never-spoken-of sister.

 

 

I'm fairly lenient when it comes to changes if the final product is worthwhile.

Yeah, me too. Spin-offs, reimaginings, reboots, whatever works. Continuity shouldn't impede creativity, but breaking it has to be warranted. Just don't give me fan fiction-level writing and pet characters and I won't spend the whole hour groaning. Same thing with the new Star Wars. I don't care that they nuked the EU except that they did it to make room for Leia's space Jesus moment, Ben Swolo's teen tantrums and toilet cleaners that just so happen to know about critical structural weaknesses. Kyle Katarn would roll over in his grave... if he could even be killed by something as silly as his entire universe being deleted.

 

I do take exception to your lack of appreciation for captain Archer, though.

Edited February 16, 2019 by 213374U

[ShadySands]

It's funny that the Discovery captains never make any of our lists just because we don't even think of them rather than purposefully excluding them. Same with Archer from Enterprise but that's mostly because we stopped watching it a few episodes in. I finished the first season by myself but can't really remember anything about it other than some alien hand baby.

 

I still really want to like Discovery but as my wife puts it, it feels like it's made by people only know Star Trek from the movie trailers and pop culture. I just hope the Picard series is more Measure of Man (or Drumhead) Talky Picard and not Actionman Dune Buggy Picard.

Edited February 16, 2019 by ShadySands

[InsaneCommander]

So far I'm enjoying Discovery, but I agree with most of the criticism. I've watched all of the new movies and although I think they are good action/sci-fi movies, I don't consider then good Star Trek movies.

 

Let's hope the Picard series won't be about him living in an isolated planet, collecting alien's milk and wanting the Federation to come to an end.

[majestic]

Yeah, me too. Spin-offs, reimaginings, reboots, whatever works. Continuity shouldn't impede creativity, but breaking it has to be warranted. Just don't give me fan fiction-level writing and pet characters and I won't spend the whole hour groaning. Same thing with the new Star Wars. I don't care that they nuked the EU except that they did it to make room for Leia's space Jesus moment, Ben Swolo's teen tantrums and toilet cleaners that just so happen to know about critical structural weaknesses. Kyle Katarn would roll over in his grave... if he could even be killed by something as silly as his entire universe being deleted.

I do take exception to your lack of appreciation for captain Archer, though.

 

 

When I think of Archer all that comes to mind is One Night In Sickbay.

 

Not dissing Scott Bakula here. He did a fine job, given the circumstances. Most of the crew did, except maybe Jolene Blalock.

 

If Disney hadn't created a new canon TFA would have been set around the time of Legacy of the Force. Darth Caedus (Jacen Solo) would lead the Galactic Alliance against a group of freedom fighters. Han, Luke and Leia would all do weird things that make no sense and excacerbate the situation instead of helping it. It even features a superweapon being destroyed. Centerpoint even worked similarily to the Starkiller Base by firing hyperspace laz0rs if needed.

 

Eh... uhm... eh.

 

Oh, right. Chewie would be dead. Can't have that.

[SonicMage117]

Maybe cheese and vegan cheese might have been better. But it wouldn't have played as well off SM117's original line. Some style over substance must be allowed. Rule of cool and all.

 

Pleasing a fanbase that expects everything to be the same throughout the ages is the problem but let's forget about Voyager and other Star Trek series which suffered from the very same things that Discovery suffers from. Is it really Kurtzman's fault?

 

 

That said,

My favorite Star Trek series will always be Shatner-Nimoy Original series so I'm not in any way defending Discovery because it's new. Over time, Star Trek has went a different route, Discovery isn't an extreme change that drastically happened, every Star Trek series that has happened since the original has slowly led up to this point - I'm talking about both movies and tv series.

 

I do agree that it's cool to hate the new thing though, it's not really any different from rpg community hating on whatever rpg developed by a AAA company they don't like. Look at it this way, in "x amount of years" there will be a new Star Trek series and suddenly everyone who says: "Discovery isn't Star Trek!" will be saying: "Discovery was Star Trek, at least it had this, st least it had that" and will say that the new Star Trek show is the furthest thing from Star Trek. Style of substance? Again, my favorite Star Trek us the original series, the Star Trek series and movies has been slowly shifting to more style, Disvovery is just getting the lash out because of modern politics and the fact that it's cool to hate the new kid on the block with Social Media/Forums

[Zoraptor]

Discovery has the problem all shows have when they try and appeal to everyone and appeal to some retroactively by fixing 'mistakes'- they tend to become a bit amorphous and are focused on annoying as few as possible as opposed to pleasing as many as possible. Addressing criticism is great, but you have to accept that if you 'fix' something for one group of people you're likely to 'break' it for others and that if you get it wrong you will end up not pleasing either group; getting the balance right is tricky and you may just be better off deciding some people are just not your audience. Personally I'm not too worried about the more emo Burnham- she's still recognisably the same character, there are reasons for it, and it was a journey Spock, Data and every other stoic character went on to greater or lesser extents, but I can see how others wouldn't like it as it is too sudden and too extreme and how others wouldn't have liked her in S1. I think they're a bit too concerned with whether viewers like Burnham though, when being liked is not necessary for an effective protagonist.

 

My concerns with S2 are mostly Tilly being Flanderised into... some sort of hybrid of all the worst aspects of Neelix and Wesley Crusher, and the increased use of outright treknobabble to solve problems- S1 had the treknobabble, but it was at least mostly isolated to dealing with the fungus subplot (the weakest aspect of the season); and treknobabble has been and always will be a crutch for bad writers to bail themselves out of the corners they've written themselves into with their bad writing. S1 may have been too dark for many, but it at least established the series as having stakes and some permanent consequences, so far S2 has ducked any real consequences and gone far too far in the fluffy bunny direction.

 

Note: I haven't seen the latest episode yet, vaguely hoping that Tilly gets possessed by homicidal fungus and goes on a rampage to invalidate my complaints.

 

I just hope the Picard series is more Measure of Man (or Drumhead) Talky Picard and not Actionman Dune Buggy Picard.

 

Stewart is probably too old for outright action man stuff anyway, even with a stunt double and makeup, and I'd presume he'd be a flag officer of some sort rather than a captain going off on away missions. I'd like the odd 'Darmok' type episode where he does both, but I'm really expecting it to be others doing most of the action. Which is as it really ought to be, logically, both in universe and out. When I think of the best Picard eps Darmok is probably the only one with much in the way of conventional action, and that still has the talky/ story as focus.

[Guard Dog]

 

Let's hope the Picard series won't be about him living in an isolated planet, collecting alien's milk and wanting the Federation to come to an end.

You know I've never understood why so many found fault with where Luke Skywalker's story went. I find the idea of a man with unlimited potential failing when it matters the most, finding out everything he ever believed in was BS, then going off to live alone in some secluded rural place to be VERY identifiable. Yes, I think I can relate to all of that! 

[ShadySands]

^My reaction when reading that

Though I'm not sure the drugs didn't just kick in for Mark

[SonicMage117]

 

Let's hope the Picard series won't be about him living in an isolated planet, collecting alien's milk and wanting the Federation to come to an end.

You know I've never understood why so many found fault with where Luke Skywalker's story went. I find the idea of a man with unlimited potential failing when it matters the most, finding out everything he ever believed in was BS, then going off to live alone in some secluded rural place to be VERY identifiable. Yes, I think I can relate to all of that!

It's Star Wars, either everything is so tacky to where you can see what's coming from a mile or the writing is so bad where you are just like "What?" Lol

 

We'll always wonder why Darth Vader's fatgerly reveal was considered by some to be a plot twist, it was one of those "I saw this from a mile away" things. Baby boomer logic saw it as "Omg... Best thing ever!!!" I guess which is a shame considering how films in cinema not unlike Close Encounter Of The Third Kind was far better written - all whilist millennials and baby boomers blame Disney for screwing Star Wars up. Probably only keep up with the movies and nothing else

Edited February 17, 2019 by SonicMage117

[Guard Dog]

It's funny how much Luke's story echos Mark Hamill's own.  In 1977 no one ever heard of him. By 1983 he was a huge star and everyone  knew who he was. Then he did a few bad movies and disappeared into the mists of cartoon voice acting. Now he resurfaces as a grouchy old man who's not happy with the role he has to play in things.. You see??? It fits like a glove!!! 

[SonicMage117]

Not sure lol I'd wager he has even more fans as voice actor for the Joker in Batman than he does as Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. That's what he's been doing alot of work in. He wasn't born for the role of Luke, anybody can play Luke but nobody can really do the voice of The Clown Prince Of Crime like he can hehe

[Raithe]

Say what you will about the ropey moments, the Highlander series had a lot of damn good moments. Still manages to hit in the feels with the final episode.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dysGDr-QZNQ

[InsaneCommander]

Let's hope the Picard series won't be about him living in an isolated planet, collecting alien's milk and wanting the Federation to come to an end.

You know I've never understood why so many found fault with where Luke Skywalker's story went. I find the idea of a man with unlimited potential failing when it matters the most, finding out everything he ever believed in was BS, then going off to live alone in some secluded rural place to be VERY identifiable. Yes, I think I can relate to all of that! 

 

I think it is not the best choice for what happened to the character, but I don't consider it absurd. Picard, however, should not end like that.

[Zoraptor]

..S1 may have been too dark for many, but it at least established the series as having stakes..

 

 

Note: I haven't seen the latest episode yet, vaguely hoping that Tilly gets possessed by homicidal fungus and goes on a rampage to invalidate my complaints.

 

 

Obviously_this_comment_didn't_age_well.jpg

 

That was... Threshhold level bad. The contrast against the last Orville episode could not have been more stark.

[ShadySands]

I've heard that Discovery has made some big Section 31 changes like it's no longer a secret that almost nobody knows about and it reports directly to Starfleet. Can anyone verify or deny?

 

E: And more importantly does it work?

Edited February 18, 2019 by ShadySands

[InsaneCommander]

I've heard that Discovery has made some big Section 31 changes like it's no longer a secret that almost nobody knows about and it reports directly to Starfleet. Can anyone verify or deny?

 

I don't know how much of a secret it is, but the crew of the Discovery seem to know about it and there were agents with visible black badges on board in the third (?) episode. In the most recent one they reported to Admiral Cornwell. Maybe only the crew of the Discovery know about them and they were ordered to keep it secret. I actually don't remember if Pike knew about them.

 

Anyway, I'm really curious about Georgiou's motivation.

 

Spoilers for the most recent episode (S02E05):

 

 

If she wanted to go back to the mirror universe to retake her throne, she would probably have tried it already. She has some unique resources from Section 31. She can't take over the Federation or turn it into another Terran Empire because people would never go for it. So what is her goal? She seemed happy when the Discovery was saved, is it because she worried about Michael? Does she want to lead S31?

 

One way or another, I think S31 will get worse (less ethical) because of her influence. I don't think I saw the episode of Enterprise with them, so I don't know if they already were like the one we see in DS9 era at that time. Maybe they weren't that bad, until Georgiou joined.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by InsaneCommander

[Zoraptor]

 

I've heard that Discovery has made some big Section 31 changes like it's no longer a secret that almost nobody knows about and it reports directly to Starfleet. Can anyone verify or deny?

 

I actually don't remember if Pike knew about them.

 

Pretty sure (but not certain) he recognised the name/ badge without prompting.

 

As for whether it works, too soon to tell since they've only really had bits of C plot and B plot so far. Ep5 spoiler below, though it could easily be inferred from non spoiler info

 

 

Looks like it's set up for the Georgiou spinoff (?)

 

 

 

Spoilers for the most recent episode (S02E05):

 

 

If she wanted to go back to the mirror universe to retake her throne, she would probably have tried it already. She has some unique resources from Section 31. She can't take over the Federation or turn it into another Terran Empire because people would never go for it. So what is her goal?

 

 

 

 

 

She said last season that she couldn't go back to the alt universe as she'd be seen as a loser- which could be 'unreliable narration' from her but given what we know it's consistent with the alt universe. I'd presume she has some pretensions towards manipulating Section 31 and becoming a power behind the throne type figure. We don't have much S31 background but it's been implied that they're running some sort of semi parallel government in which could be subverted more easily than the Fed as a whole.

 

As above though, I presume her appearance is set up for the postulated spinoff, which would likely mean a more straight 'agent' role or being in command of a clean up squad. That would also explain Discovery's tonal shift, if the 'dark' and more serialised storylines are going to be migrated to a new show.

 

[Amentep]

...and Punisher and Jessica Jones are cancelled with JJ Season 3 still to air.

[SonicMage117]

...and Punisher and Jessica Jones are cancelled with JJ Season 3 still to air.

I was just going to post this..

https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/02/18/the-punisher-canceled-netflix-jon-bernthal/

 

I already comsidered them cancelled long ago. This will most likely be the last season of Jessica Jones. Disney won't be picking them up but I'm hoping for some new live action shows with the same characters (different actors/acreesses).

[majestic]

I've heard that Discovery has made some big Section 31 changes like it's no longer a secret that almost nobody knows about and it reports directly to Starfleet. Can anyone verify or deny?

 

Yes, they did.

 

E: And more importantly does it work?

 

When put into context with the rest of the Star Trek universe, no, not at all. Section 31 was Starfleet's Alpha Protocol back in Enterprise and it still is as of Deep Space Nine. It makes zero sense that it's an official part of Starfleet Intelligence ten years before TOS. Nor does it make any sense that the UFP would have an officially regonized and sanctioned Tal Shiar equivalent.

 

To quote your wife:

 

 

I still really want to like Discovery but as my wife puts it, it feels like it's made by people only know Star Trek from the movie trailers and pop culture.

 

 

 

As for S02E05:

 

 

What in the everblazing hells made them Tillybabble away a dramatic moment for Stamets? This is essentially the equivalent of Rose ruining the only worthwhile thing Finn would have done in the entirety of TLJ. Instead we get Twilight level writing. *sob* No! I can't lose you again!

 

Le sigh.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by majestic

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, really not a fan of that episode at all.

 

 

I've heard that Discovery has made some big Section 31 changes like it's no longer a secret that almost nobody knows about and it reports directly to Starfleet. Can anyone verify or deny?

 

Yes, they did.

 

E: And more importantly does it work?

 

When put into context with the rest of the Star Trek universe, no, not at all. Section 31 was Starfleet's Alpha Protocol back in Enterprise and it still is as of Deep Space Nine. It makes zero sense that it's an official part of Starfleet Intelligence ten years before TOS. Nor does it make any sense that the UFP would have an officially regonized and sanctioned Tal Shiar equivalent.

 

It's not clear yet that its existence is generally known though is it? Spoilered it to be safe though I tried to be vagueish.

 

 

Apart from Pike the only people who definitely know are people who already knew about bringing Georgiou back from the alt universe, and known members of S31. I'd say the bigger in universe problem at the moment is who its known members are- two of them are as fundamentally unreliable as you can get and would not realistically be anywhere near being used for anything let alone on solo operations.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Zoraptor

[majestic]

Apart from Pike the only people who definitely know are people who already knew about bringing Georgiou back from the alt universe, and known members of S31. I'd say the bigger in universe problem at the moment is who its known members are- two of them are as fundamentally unreliable as you can get and would not realistically be anywhere near being used for anything let alone on solo operations.

 

 

I thought the same thing last season when Captain Malfoy thought it was a good idea to make Tyler his chief of security without so much as a single medical and psychological exam.

 

Eh, I'd say the fact that they actually wear black badges that are recognized by various people (including Tyler before joining) as the ID badges of Section 31 members means their status is much more official than what it was before.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by majestic

[InsaneCommander]

Looks like it's set up for the Georgiou spinoff (?)

 

 

 

She said last season that she couldn't go back to the alt universe as she'd be seen as a loser- which could be 'unreliable narration' from her but given what we know it's consistent with the alt universe. I'd presume she has some pretensions towards manipulating Section 31 and becoming a power behind the throne type figure. We don't have much S31 background but it's been implied that they're running some sort of semi parallel government in which could be subverted more easily than the Fed as a whole.

 

As above though, I presume her appearance is set up for the postulated spinoff, which would likely mean a more straight 'agent' role or being in command of a clean up squad. That would also explain Discovery's tonal shift, if the 'dark' and more serialised storylines are going to be migrated to a new show.

 

 

When put into context with the rest of the Star Trek universe, no, not at all. Section 31 was Starfleet's Alpha Protocol back in Enterprise and it still is as of Deep Space Nine. It makes zero sense that it's an official part of Starfleet Intelligence ten years before TOS. Nor does it make any sense that the UFP would have an officially regonized and sanctioned Tal Shiar equivalent.

 

Well, if it was already like that in Enterprise, then it makes no sense. Maybe Discovery is in the Kelvin universe? Or is that even more nonsense with the Earth to Qonos teleporters?

 

They didn't need to make it so widely known. They could have some standard Starfleet Intelligence officers and have S31 recruit her later.

 

Edit: what will come next? A Dominion-Borg War in the alpha quadrant? lol

Edited February 18, 2019 by InsaneCommander

[Zoraptor]

 

Eh, I'd say the fact that they actually wear black badges that are recognized by various people (including [redacted]) as the ID badges of Section 31 members means their status is much more official than what it was before.

 

Non spoiler: yeah, given that it seems likely they are a lot more recognisable.

 

 

I'd forgotten he recognised it. Suppose it could be handwaved with some special knowledge- intelligence from his former position with the Klingons maybe- but, yeah, it's handwaving. I find it difficult to believe the writers intend them to be readily recognisable since, well, they're meant to be covert black ops and being well known doesn't really mesh with that; but based on what they've shown in universe it seems likely they are. Which is pretty stupid, even if you don't have the context of how they operated in Enterprise/ DS9.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Zoraptor