"Must" Cipher spells for a ranged or support/mid-line multi-class?

[Lampros]

I have decided to give Cipher a go, because I am really feeling the lack of CC or AoE in some fights.

 

So what are the main CC or AoE damage spells I should get? I do not want any mind control-type of spells, as I script everything, and I do not want enemies getting my buffs upon reversion.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Borrowed Insticts comes first. Whatever else comes after that. Consider some sort of Will debuffing effect, either a Club modal or something else. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Hulk'O'Saurus

[1TTFFSSE]

Level 1 Whispers of Treason, Beam

Level 2 Mindblades, also that aoe flanked ability is ok, Recall Agony

Level 3 Secret Horrors! , Echto echo

Level 4 Pain block , Scream or Mind Lance (melee or streetfighter cipher)

Level 5 Borrowed Instinct, Ringleader, Detonate

Level 6 Amp Wave, Disintegrate

Level 7 Brilliant inspiration

Level 8 Time Parasite

Level 9 Death 1000

 

Ascendant for damage no point in anything else

Cipher pretty simple but item reliant to build focus fast. So use Thunderous report from Kitchen stove basically and Thundercrack and Amira's Wind as backup

Early level is spam secret horrors +mind blades

late level spam secret horros+amp wave and if there is one target disintegrate or detonate (if target is near death)

 

Max perception and any items that increase accuracy - accuracy is king on cipher. Also hearth orlan for extra crits. 

 

If you want advanced multiclass variations go Transcendent or Witch, you loose a bit of tempo but get lots of nice perks from monk or berserker multi. single class is faster to get to very good high level abilities faster but transcendent or witch become more powerful after level 17/18 than a pure cipher.  

 

pure cipher good with kitchen stove and red hand as backup but best with kitchen stove+Thundercrack+Amira's Wind layout and never really auto attacking

witch is best with same I guess and Aamina's Legacy should you auto attack/ use barbaric blow to finish near death targets

transcendent good with kitchen stove and aoe mortars to generate lots of focus with aoe hand mortars and stunning surge. 

 

Mindstalker is weaker in aoe than the above variants but has better single target damage as it is partially a rogue. There you take crippling strike and ring the bell and dual wield scordeo's + xefa's for single target burst or scordeo's+fire in the hole for aoe. 

[Verde]

Mind Blades, Mental Binding, Secret Horrors, Silent Scream, and Amp Wave are all great AoE spells.

[Prince of Lies]

I have decided to give Cipher a go, because I am really feeling the lack of CC or AoE in some fights.

 

So what are the main CC or AoE damage spells I should get? I do not want any mind control-type of spells, as I script everything, and I do not want enemies getting my buffs upon reversion.

 

Just so you know, you don't have to micromanage charmed/dominated enemies. They go and do their own thing.

 

I'd highly suggest that you give Whispers of Treason/Puppet Master/Ringleader a try, you'll probably find that it's one of the best types of CC in the game. 

 

As for other abilities, all of what everyone else mentioned is good, but I'd also give honorable mentions to Antipathetic Field and Ectophsychic Echo for when you have someone flanking an enemy. 

[Lampros]

 

I have decided to give Cipher a go, because I am really feeling the lack of CC or AoE in some fights.

 

So what are the main CC or AoE damage spells I should get? I do not want any mind control-type of spells, as I script everything, and I do not want enemies getting my buffs upon reversion.

 

Just so you know, you don't have to micromanage charmed/dominated enemies. They go and do their own thing.

 

I'd highly suggest that you give Whispers of Treason/Puppet Master/Ringleader a try, you'll probably find that it's one of the best types of CC in the game. 

 

As for other abilities, all of what everyone else mentioned is good, but I'd also give honorable mentions to Antipathetic Field and Ectophsychic Echo for when you have someone flanking an enemy. 

 

 

I know; what I am wary of is having them retain my buffs when they revert to being bad. I lost a fight this way in PoE 1 once, and I vowed to never use them again. It was a fight that I always won easily, but the mind control soulbound rod proc-ed in succession, and basically the entire other side came over to me, got all of my triple Paladin buffs (LOL!) and other stuff, changed sides and they couldn't be killed any more. It was ugly.

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

[Flucas]

Great class! Go mc with regular barbarian for combo with miscr leather.

 

Borrowed instinct > mindblades > disintegrate > horrors > brilliant buff > amp wave

[Ophiuchus]

I like going Borrowed Instinct -> Secret Horrors -> Mind Plague -> Mental Binding for some spicy tear down on my Seer.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Ophiuchus

[Prince of Lies]

I know; what I am wary of is having them retain my buffs when they revert to being bad. I lost a fight this way in PoE 1 once, and I vowed to never use them again. It was a fight that I always won easily, but the mind control soulbound rod proc-ed in succession, and basically the entire other side came over to me, got all of my triple Paladin buffs (LOL!) and other stuff, changed sides and they couldn't be killed any more. It was ugly.

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

I don't think Zealous Auras stay on Charmed/Dominated enemies in Deadfire.

 

Melee/Ranged would depend on your own preferences, subclass/multiclass build, party composition, and gear you plan on using.

 

Most people seem to edge towards ranged with weapons like Kitchen Stove (Thunderous Rapport) or Amira's Wing (Wilting Wind) so they can reach max focus with Ascendant.  

[Haplok]

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

 

It's definitely a very good idea.

Personally I like a Helwalker/Ascendant Transcendant (huge boosts to aoe sizes, buff/cc/debuff/effect durations, speed boost, greatly increased damage - for both attacks and spells) . Although as been mentioned, a pure Ascendant is fine as well and reaches the best powers much sooner.

 

One great spell that's often missed is Mental Binding. Perhaps the duration is a bit short on a typical character, but at least on a Transcendant its great! Paralyze is great hard CC. And it also has a pretty large immobilize aoe.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Haplok

[Archaven]

Borrowed Insticts comes first. Whatever else comes after that. Consider some sort of Will debuffing effect, either a Club modal or something else.

By the time this is available I feel I should take better ones like ringleader

[Haplok]

Only if you plan to actually use it...

[Lampros]

 

I know; what I am wary of is having them retain my buffs when they revert to being bad. I lost a fight this way in PoE 1 once, and I vowed to never use them again. It was a fight that I always won easily, but the mind control soulbound rod proc-ed in succession, and basically the entire other side came over to me, got all of my triple Paladin buffs (LOL!) and other stuff, changed sides and they couldn't be killed any more. It was ugly.

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

I don't think Zealous Auras stay on Charmed/Dominated enemies in Deadfire.

 

Melee/Ranged would depend on your own preferences, subclass/multiclass build, party composition, and gear you plan on using.

 

Most people seem to edge towards ranged with weapons like Kitchen Stove (Thunderous Rapport) or Amira's Wing (Wilting Wind) so they can reach max focus with Ascendant.  

 

 

You sure? I recall it did at one point in PoE 1. But my game may have been bugged then, as it was heavily modded (I am not using any mods for PoE 2 though).

 

On Kitchen Stove: Does it Thunderous Report do friendly fire damage? I put almost everything on script, so this is hugely important for me

 

And finally, is Ascendant best for ranged/CC build?

 

 

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

 

It's definitely a very good idea.

Personally I like a Helwalker/Ascendant Transcendant (huge boosts to aoe sizes, buff/cc/debuff/effect durations, speed boost, greatly increased damage - for both attacks and spells) . Although as been mentioned, a pure Ascendant is fine as well and reaches the best powers much sooner.

 

One great spell that's often missed is Mental Binding. Perhaps the duration is a bit short on a typical character, but at least on a Transcendant its great! Paralyze is great hard CC. And it also has a pretty large immobilize aoe.

 

 

I had real trouble keeping a Helwalker/Trickster alive as a blunderbuss build; and I worry I might have the same issue if I go blunderbuss helwalker/Cipher. What "oh ****" survival tools do I have as a Monk or a Cipher?

[Lampros]

 

Borrowed Insticts comes first. Whatever else comes after that. Consider some sort of Will debuffing effect, either a Club modal or something else.

By the time this is available I feel I should take better ones like ringleader

 

 

Only if you plan to actually use it...

 

Yeah, Ringleader affects too many, and I am still very wary of enemies keeping my buffs upon reversion to the bad side.

[Haplok]

Yeah, Thunderous Report does friendly damage. But you generally only need/can fire it once per encounter.

 

Survivsl Tools.. hm.. for example... monk can activate Blade Turning when under strrong melee attack. Cipher can quickly Paralyze with Mental Binding. Secret Horrors takes the edge of many enemies.

 

And yeah, Ascendant is pretty much best. Cases can be for Soulblade for melee or Beguiler solely for CC.

[Lampros]

Yeah, Thunderous Report does friendly damage. But you generally only need/can fire it once per encounter.

 

Survivsl Tools.. hm.. for example... monk can activate Blade Turning when under strrong melee attack. Cipher can quickly Paralyze with Mental Binding. Secret Horrors takes the edge of many enemies.

 

And yeah, Ascendant is pretty much best. Cases can be for Soulblade for melee or Beguiler solely for CC.

 

Does Blade Turning only redirect attacks to enemies or friends as well?

 

Yes, Secret Horrors is lovely. It was the one selling point of the class when I tested it briefly at level 9 (so I didn't have access to more advanced stuff).

[Flucas]

 

 

I know; what I am wary of is having them retain my buffs when they revert to being bad. I lost a fight this way in PoE 1 once, and I vowed to never use them again. It was a fight that I always won easily, but the mind control soulbound rod proc-ed in succession, and basically the entire other side came over to me, got all of my triple Paladin buffs (LOL!) and other stuff, changed sides and they couldn't be killed any more. It was ugly.

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

I don't think Zealous Auras stay on Charmed/Dominated enemies in Deadfire.

 

Melee/Ranged would depend on your own preferences, subclass/multiclass build, party composition, and gear you plan on using.

 

Most people seem to edge towards ranged with weapons like Kitchen Stove (Thunderous Rapport) or Amira's Wing (Wilting Wind) so they can reach max focus with Ascendant.  

 

 

You sure? I recall it did at one point in PoE 1. But my game may have been bugged then, as it was heavily modded (I am not using any mods for PoE 2 though).

 

On Kitchen Stove: Does it Thunderous Report do friendly fire damage? I put almost everything on script, so this is hugely important for me

 

And finally, is Ascendant best for ranged/CC build?

 

 

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

 

It's definitely a very good idea.

Personally I like a Helwalker/Ascendant Transcendant (huge boosts to aoe sizes, buff/cc/debuff/effect durations, speed boost, greatly increased damage - for both attacks and spells) . Although as been mentioned, a pure Ascendant is fine as well and reaches the best powers much sooner.

 

One great spell that's often missed is Mental Binding. Perhaps the duration is a bit short on a typical character, but at least on a Transcendant its great! Paralyze is great hard CC. And it also has a pretty large immobilize aoe.

 

 

I had real trouble keeping a Helwalker/Trickster alive as a blunderbuss build; and I worry I might have the same issue if I go blunderbuss helwalker/Cipher. What "oh ****" survival tools do I have as a Monk or a Cipher?

 

 

Fix the script for your healer

[Lampros]

 

 

 

I know; what I am wary of is having them retain my buffs when they revert to being bad. I lost a fight this way in PoE 1 once, and I vowed to never use them again. It was a fight that I always won easily, but the mind control soulbound rod proc-ed in succession, and basically the entire other side came over to me, got all of my triple Paladin buffs (LOL!) and other stuff, changed sides and they couldn't be killed any more. It was ugly.

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

I don't think Zealous Auras stay on Charmed/Dominated enemies in Deadfire.

 

Melee/Ranged would depend on your own preferences, subclass/multiclass build, party composition, and gear you plan on using.

 

Most people seem to edge towards ranged with weapons like Kitchen Stove (Thunderous Rapport) or Amira's Wing (Wilting Wind) so they can reach max focus with Ascendant.  

 

 

You sure? I recall it did at one point in PoE 1. But my game may have been bugged then, as it was heavily modded (I am not using any mods for PoE 2 though).

 

On Kitchen Stove: Does it Thunderous Report do friendly fire damage? I put almost everything on script, so this is hugely important for me

 

And finally, is Ascendant best for ranged/CC build?

 

 

 

I'd use Cipher as a multi-class mid-ranger; would melee be better?

 

 

It's definitely a very good idea.

Personally I like a Helwalker/Ascendant Transcendant (huge boosts to aoe sizes, buff/cc/debuff/effect durations, speed boost, greatly increased damage - for both attacks and spells) . Although as been mentioned, a pure Ascendant is fine as well and reaches the best powers much sooner.

 

One great spell that's often missed is Mental Binding. Perhaps the duration is a bit short on a typical character, but at least on a Transcendant its great! Paralyze is great hard CC. And it also has a pretty large immobilize aoe.

 

 

I had real trouble keeping a Helwalker/Trickster alive as a blunderbuss build; and I worry I might have the same issue if I go blunderbuss helwalker/Cipher. What "oh ****" survival tools do I have as a Monk or a Cipher?

 

 

Fix the script for your healer

 

 

I don't run a Priest or a Druid!

 

Do I now have to do use a blunderbuss glass cannon?

[Prince of Lies]

I don't run a Priest or a Druid!

 

Do I now have to do use a blunderbuss glass cannon?

Doesn't have to be a glass cannon.

 

I would suggest using an old save, hiring adventurer ciphers, and testing them out to see what works best for you. That, or use Unity Console to convert a companion and test.

 

A case could be made for literally any variation of cipher because they are a pretty flexible class. 

[Lampros]

 

I don't run a Priest or a Druid!

 

Do I now have to do use a blunderbuss glass cannon?

Doesn't have to be a glass cannon.

 

I would suggest using an old save, hiring adventurer ciphers, and testing them out to see what works best for you. That, or use Unity Console to convert a companion and test.

 

A case could be made for literally any variation of cipher because they are a pretty flexible class. 

 

 

I just deleted all old saves, because I fear extra saves cause lags. (It did at one point in PoE 1, and I am a creature of habit.)

 

But I should really live at least 1 saves each at around level 5, 10, 15, and 20 to be able to test how different builds play at different junctures of the game

[Prince of Lies]

 

 

I don't run a Priest or a Druid!

 

Do I now have to do use a blunderbuss glass cannon?

Doesn't have to be a glass cannon.

 

I would suggest using an old save, hiring adventurer ciphers, and testing them out to see what works best for you. That, or use Unity Console to convert a companion and test.

 

A case could be made for literally any variation of cipher because they are a pretty flexible class. 

 

 

I just deleted all old saves, because I fear extra saves cause lags. (It did at one point in PoE 1, and I am a creature of habit.)

 

But I should really live at least 1 saves each at around level 5, 10, 15, and 20 to be able to test how different builds play at different junctures of the game

 

 

Alternatively, download the Unity Console mod and use that. That's what I use to test stuff. 

 

Right now it's having issues, but the solution is in the mod message board on the nexus.

[1TTFFSSE]

Just a note pure ascendant gets the best stuff really early (level 11/12) but falls off in power when getting to level 17+ and is still good.

 

Transendant or Witch are decent at the lvl 10-14 range and become amazing level 16+.

 

Out of the two a witch is less squishy and power level is comparable especially since if you go transcendent you need helwalker and those are made of glass. Berserker gets you savage defiance as insta cast to tank through some damage, the healer does the rest for you.  

 

Seer seems very nice but I have never played one as rangers always seemed meh compared to monks, barbs and rogue multi but I think it is solid, just won't have the raw damage output of the others. And having borrowed instinct for accuracy boost I never considered taking ranger multi as that is what ranger brings. Barbs and monks bring speed/damage boosts which is nice for cipher.

 

I am bringing this up because with Kitchen Stove on ai you generally want to position your cipher/x near your tank at the front of the formation if you are gonna use ai script to activate Thunderous report each combat at the start. A witch with savage defiance+borrowed instinct can absorb/tank some of the damage while the helwalker if gonna come under probably rtoo much pressure without a priest casting barring death's door on you asap. 

 

Here an example from by witch banshee build, though this is quite late level but with deadly deadfire+ installed.

[Lampros]

Just a note pure ascendant gets the best stuff really early (level 11/12) but falls off in power when getting to level 17+ and is still good.

 

Transendant or Witch are decent at the lvl 10-14 range and become amazing level 16+.

 

Out of the two a witch is less squishy and power level is comparable especially since if you go transcendent you need helwalker and those are made of glass. Berserker gets you savage defiance as insta cast to tank through some damage, the healer does the rest for you.  

 

Seer seems very nice but I have never played one as rangers always seemed meh compared to monks, barbs and rogue multi but I think it is solid, just won't have the raw damage output of the others. And having borrowed instinct for accuracy boost I never considered taking ranger multi as that is what ranger brings. Barbs and monks bring speed/damage boosts which is nice for cipher.

 

I am bringing this up because with Kitchen Stove on ai you generally want to position your cipher/x near your tank at the front of the formation if you are gonna use ai script to activate Thunderous report each combat at the start. A witch with savage defiance+borrowed instinct can absorb/tank some of the damage while the helwalker if gonna come under probably rtoo much pressure without a priest casting barring death's door on you asap. 

 

Here an example from by witch banshee build, though this is quite late level but with deadly deadfire+ installed.

 

What makes Barbarian/Cipher so good?

 

And doesn't Ranger bring a lot more than mere Accuracy? What about Tranquilizing Shot - or the DPS and effects increase from Driving Flight?

[Lampros]

By the way, it's fantastic that you posted the scripting video, too. Too many folks who post builds don't, but it's all-important for folks like me who does very little manual.

[1TTFFSSE]

What makes Barbarian/Cipher so good?

 

And doesn't Ranger bring a lot more than mere Accuracy? What about Tranquilizing Shot - or the DPS and effects increase from Driving Flight?

 

 

 

 

I am looking at it from the standpoint of a pure spellcaster cipher. Ranger and Rogue cipher are mixxed/martial builds because those abilities mainly buff "weapon" damage and not spell damage and efficiency, monk/cipher, berserker/cipher and pure cipher on the other hand can be more pure spellcaster nukers when you build them right. monk gives fire 20% lash on spells and increased speed, berserker extra pen and speed through frenzy as well as the best late game buffs in blood thirst allowing you to ignore recovery on the next spell or attack after a kill->works great with aoe spells. 

 

I try to take out weapon attacking out of the cipher at late levels and use weapon abilities likie Thunderous report etc to generate focus and become pure caster once combat starts. a priests salvation of time on you make acsendant state last a long time. so that's the difference basically as I think ciphers deal most damage when they can cast spells non-stop like wizards, and monk or barbarian multi gives the best buffs for the aoe spells.