Could Obsidian please clarify: Is the final boss "supposed" to optional, as some are now arguing? (endgame spoilers)

[Mallard]

There are a number of people reporting that the Guardian of Ukaizo is not appearing. It has consistently been referred to as an unintended bug...

 

However, at least one user has argued that is *not* a bug; the Guardian is apparently *NOT* meant to appear in some cases.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/9hkpyu/no_final_boss_spoilers/e6fmv5b/

 

 

• 1: If you save the dragon in the water temple, you will not fight the "final" boss whatsoever, this is a scripted event that happens because of something you did in the past.

• 2: If you dont save the dragon during the water temple, you can still manage not to fight the last boss by siding with one of the factions. (During the event the guardian attacks the faction you sided with instead, so if you dont help them, you wont fight the guardian, the option "Take us into the storm [stoic (Mountain)]" which promptly ignores the guardian fighting your faction, and since you dont help them the guardian will be busy fighting them instead and wont follow you into the storm.)

 

 

The misconception that people have is like thusly:

Before the beast of winter patch, no matter what you did or what you picked during the event, you fought the guardian no matter what, this was a bug that was fixed, nothing more.

It was fixed so you can actually skip the guardian if you want to.

 

Just wanted to clarify, is this the intended design?

 

If so, then my personal recommendation is to have the player fight at least some form of the Guardian, it helps to make up for the fact that the player cannot actually fight Eothas. It's a great fight, it would be a shame for players to miss out on it!

[house2fly]

The conversation with the guardian is pretty much the only loreyou get on Ukaizo, so it doesn't really make sense to me that that conversation would be optional. Stranger things have happened though

[thelee]

There are a number of people reporting that the Guardian of Ukaizo is not appearing. It has consistently been referred to as an unintended bug...

 

However, at least one user has argued that is *not* a bug; the Guardian is apparently *NOT* meant to appear in some cases.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/9hkpyu/no_final_boss_spoilers/e6fmv5b/

 

 

• 1: If you save the dragon in the water temple, you will not fight the "final" boss whatsoever, this is a scripted event that happens because of something you did in the past.

• 2: If you dont save the dragon during the water temple, you can still manage not to fight the last boss by siding with one of the factions. (During the event the guardian attacks the faction you sided with instead, so if you dont help them, you wont fight the guardian, the option "Take us into the storm [stoic (Mountain)]" which promptly ignores the guardian fighting your faction, and since you dont help them the guardian will be busy fighting them instead and wont follow you into the storm.)

 

 

The misconception that people have is like thusly:

Before the beast of winter patch, no matter what you did or what you picked during the event, you fought the guardian no matter what, this was a bug that was fixed, nothing more.

It was fixed so you can actually skip the guardian if you want to.

 

Just wanted to clarify, is this the intended design?

 

If so, then my personal recommendation is to have the player fight at least some form of the Guardian, it helps to make up for the fact that the player cannot actually fight Eothas. It's a great fight, it would be a shame for players to miss out on it!

 

sounds like someone on the internet pretending to know what they're talking about. patch notes keep talking about the ukaizo fight, and in a bug thread about this an obsidian developer commented on how they're working on a fix for it. so very much sounds like a bug.

[InsaneCommander]

sounds like someone on the internet pretending to know what they're talking about. patch notes keep talking about the ukaizo fight, and in a bug thread about this an obsidian developer commented on how they're working on a fix for it. so very much sounds like a bug.

 

Exactly. But if that was not the case, then we should have an option to fight it anyway, like the op said.

[jlee]

Hi glennjones130486,

 

 

I'd like to bring some light to this topic and clarify some things regarding the Ukaizo Guardian encounter. Here are the conditions in which the Ukaizo Guardian fight does not occur:

1. The player has freed the dragon Scyorielaphas from the Watershaper's Guild



OR



2. The player has chosen to leave behind all their allies during the fleet battle scripted interaction


 

There was previously an issue where the Ukaizo Guardian dialogue would occur even if the player had fulfilled the conditions above, however that was addressed in patch v2.1 and has since been fixed.

 

I hope this helped answer your question!
 
-Jon

[thelee]

jlee, thanks for that clarification!

 

i guess my most recent high-level party not getting an ukaizo fight was intentional then (they did #2). a little disappointing in that context (was hoping for one last good fight before the end), but I guess it's good that there exists a non-violent (or at least less-violent) option for getting into the harbor.

Edited September 25, 2018 by thelee

[InsaneCommander]

Good to know.

 

But if the last boss has an interesting dialogue, it would be nice to have an option to fight him anyway. Might telling the dragon that it's ok or that the dragon should go somewhere else.

[Guest]

Huh, so it was a bug when I was fighting him before? I’ve always freed the dragon.

[house2fly]

Evidently in 1.0 being able to talk to and fight it was a bug, then in 2.0 being able to talk to it was a bug

[WiduMew]

So... if we're not supposed to be able to talk to it, is there an option to find out more about Ukaizo lore? It seems so strange to be 'punished' for taking the less violent option.

[Mallard]

Hi glennjones130486,

 

 

I'd like to bring some light to this topic and clarify some things regarding the Ukaizo Guardian encounter. Here are the conditions in which the Ukaizo Guardian fight does not occur:

 

1. The player has freed the dragon Scyorielaphas from the Watershaper's Guild

 

 

 

OR

 

 

 

2. The player has chosen to leave behind all their allies during the fleet battle scripted interaction

 

 

 

There was previously an issue where the Ukaizo Guardian dialogue would occur even if the player had fulfilled the conditions above, however that was addressed in patch v2.1 and has since been fixed.

 

I hope this helped answer your question!

 

-Jon

 

Hi Jon,

 

Thanks for the clarification. I want to strongly urge the devs to have the Guardian always be encountered, it really is important to have an epic battle at the end of a combat-themed RPG like this. And the design of the Guardian and the battle clearly had so much work put into it, it's a shame to have players miss out one of the most impressive fights in the game!

 

Instead of being absent altogether, the Guardian could show up with some kind of injury from the water dragon (not necessarily "injured" health if that would mean skipping some phases of the fight, maybe a combat penalty of some kind?)

 

Hope you guys will consider the suggestion, and thanks again for doing such a great job with Deadfire.

[InsaneCommander]

Hi Jon,

 

Thanks for the clarification. I want to strongly urge the devs to have the Guardian always be encountered, it really is important to have an epic battle at the end of a combat-themed RPG like this. And the design of the Guardian and the battle clearly had so much work put into it, it's a shame to have players miss out one of the most impressive fights in the game!

 

Instead of being absent altogether, the Guardian could show up with some kind of injury from the water dragon (not necessarily "injured" health if that would mean skipping some phases of the fight, maybe a combat penalty of some kind?)

 

Hope you guys will consider the suggestion, and thanks again for doing such a great job with Deadfire.

 

I completely agree with this, including the praise for the great job with Deadfire.

 

But I'm a little disappointed that I won't face the guardian in my current pt.

[Guest]

I guess I’m ok with this. The outcome for sparing the dragon should be significant, and this feels pretty significant. It is a shame that we lose out on the lore dump though. I wonder if something couldn’t be done with the scripted interaction to shift when help arrives (i.e. Watcher shows up, chats for a bit, fisticuffs ensue, but just then the dragon swoops of the sky and carries the Guardian off)

[Wormerine]

That’s... unexpected. As many here I joined the voices raising concern over not having Guardian show up at the end. I try to imagine my previous playthrough and guardian already felt like a weak “end boss”. Without him one misses on some major lore, and simply walks into the end game with only hit&miss scripted battle before as the finale.

[jilbi]

I agree with people above. Don't steal the end boss from your players, that's ... gaming 101

[thelee]

I agree with people above. Don't steal the end boss from your players, that's ... gaming 101

 

Fallout 1 and 2 almost literally let you speech your way out of the end boss (though less so in Fallout 2), and that fact is part of what made those fallout games great (i.e. investing in Speech and Charisma instead of gun skills was not a dead-end for finishing the game). You could kind of do that in F:NV, too. So I'm perfectly fine with Obsidian giving players a non-violent option for Ukaizo... with the new DLC and megabosses it's not even the hardest fight in the game anymore. Still, I wish it was a bit more clear about how to avoid it and not, so it's less of a surprise when players don't get the fight.

Edited September 28, 2018 by thelee

[uuuhhii]

still want to fight the guardian of ukaizo

but the text before ukaizo does say water dragon are fighting it

can we get a weakened version or a substitute giant animat to talk to?

[Wormerine]

 

I agree with people above. Don't steal the end boss from your players, that's ... gaming 101

Fallout 1 and 2 almost literally let you speech your way out of the end boss (though less so in Fallout 2), and that fact is part of what made those fallout games great (i.e. investing in Speech and Charisma instead of gun skills was not a dead-end for finishing the game). You could kind of do that in F:NV, too. 

True, but that's not quite the same kind of RPG. I played through Fallout2 as a charismatic, speech oriented character who did no killing (at least himself... he had a small army following him around to do just that if needed). However, PoE, just as IE games, is combat oriented. You can't build character who favours speech over combat, because system doesn't support that. You can opt for pieceful resolution whenever you can. 

 

Deadfire ending is a diffferent thing though. My problem with it, isn't that there isn't a mandatory "final combat encounter", but that unknowingly players cut a pretty important content from themselves making a fairly underwhelming finalle even worse. A cool thing would be to fight a weakend Guardian - maybe with some of the heads bitten off as a reactivity.

[Metaturtle]

Whoa, so all those games I've played were bugged.  That makes a lot of sense all of a sudden considering the scripted event's "huge monsters battle it out" part had the opposing monster resembling the guardian.  I didn't think much about it the first time though since I just thought maybe there were more of these things than what the gods told me.  I'm actually surprised about that alternative option though.  Nice watchers finish last right? Right?! lol

Edited September 29, 2018 by Metaturtle

[Ieldra]

Hi glennjones130486,

 

 

I'd like to bring some light to this topic and clarify some things regarding the Ukaizo Guardian encounter. Here are the conditions in which the Ukaizo Guardian fight does not occur:

 

1. The player has freed the dragon Scyorielaphas from the Watershaper's Guild

 

 

 

OR

 

 

 

2. The player has chosen to leave behind all their allies during the fleet battle scripted interaction

 

 

 

There was previously an issue where the Ukaizo Guardian dialogue would occur even if the player had fulfilled the conditions above, however that was addressed in patch v2.1 and has since been fixed.

 

I hope this helped answer your question!

 

-Jon

Hmm... I don't miss the fight because at this point I'm usually quite fed up with combat, but I did think Ukaizo was strangely empty when I got there, and the ending underwhelming because you can't do anything but watch events unfold. Another meaningful encounter, preferably only optionally violent, would probably have helped.

[DozingDragon]

Hi glennjones130486,

 

 

I'd like to bring some light to this topic and clarify some things regarding the Ukaizo Guardian encounter. Here are the conditions in which the Ukaizo Guardian fight does not occur:

 

1. The player has freed the dragon Scyorielaphas from the Watershaper's Guild

 

 

 

OR

 

 

 

2. The player has chosen to leave behind all their allies during the fleet battle scripted interaction

 

 

 

There was previously an issue where the Ukaizo Guardian dialogue would occur even if the player had fulfilled the conditions above, however that was addressed in patch v2.1 and has since been fixed.

 

I hope this helped answer your question!

 

-Jon

 

In my latest playthrough, with the current patch installed:

 

 

I freed Scyorielaphas and I began the journey to Ukaizo without any allies.  During the scripted interaction, Scyorielaphas did not appear, and I fought the Guardian at Ukaizo.  While I do not mind this result, it seems to conflict with the conditions stated in your post.  Is this another bug, or is this the developers' intent?  

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by DozingDragon

[markod]

My experience (version 2.1, downgraded from 3.0 because of a bug).

1. I freed Scyorielaphas.

2. Allied with Rauatai.

3. Got involved in the naval battle.

4. Monster appeared (didn't occurred to me it could be the guardian) and Scyorielaphas fought it off.

5. Arrived at an empty Ukaizo harbor - which was a bit anti-climactic as I expected a fight as difficult as the one with Thaos in PoE 1.

Captain Furrante arrived after I shut off the storm machine, but that fight was too easy on normal difficulty with a level 20 party.

[WiduMew]

Well, it's not the fighting that I'm missing, but getting to know more about Ukaizo. The way it is now, you land, turn off the storms, have a chat with Eothas and bugger off again from this mythical place people have been talking about all over the Deadfire. 

 

At least being able to talk to the Guardian, or its soul, would have been nice. Or finding a secret library, some old texts in stone, or what have you.

[jilbi]

 

I agree with people above. Don't steal the end boss from your players, that's ... gaming 101

 

Fallout 1 and 2 almost literally let you speech your way out of the end boss (though less so in Fallout 2), and that fact is part of what made those fallout games great (i.e. investing in Speech and Charisma instead of gun skills was not a dead-end for finishing the game). You could kind of do that in F:NV, too. So I'm perfectly fine with Obsidian giving players a non-violent option for Ukaizo... with the new DLC and megabosses it's not even the hardest fight in the game anymore. Still, I wish it was a bit more clear about how to avoid it and not, so it's less of a surprise when players don't get the fight.

 

 

yes, but that is not the same. You talk him out of it DURING the final confrontation ( of sort) . You see him, you talk to him, and yes, you can decide at that moment to avoid combat.

The whole encounter is not determined by something seamingly irrelevant you did hours of gameplay before

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

My experience (version 2.1, downgraded from 3.0 because of a bug).

1. I freed Scyorielaphas.

2. Allied with Rauatai.

3. Got involved in the naval battle.

4. Monster appeared (didn't occurred to me it could be the guardian) and Scyorielaphas fought it off.

5. Arrived at an empty Ukaizo harbor - which was a bit anti-climactic as I expected a fight as difficult as the one with Thaos in PoE 1.

Captain Furrante arrived after I shut off the storm machine, but that fight was too easy on normal difficulty with a level 20 party.

 

 

Ok, so there's at least an actual scene in the game where the Guardian appears and Scyorielaphas fights it off? It's not just "guardian goes poof" ?

[thelee]

 

My experience (version 2.1, downgraded from 3.0 because of a bug).

1. I freed Scyorielaphas.

2. Allied with Rauatai.

3. Got involved in the naval battle.

4. Monster appeared (didn't occurred to me it could be the guardian) and Scyorielaphas fought it off.

5. Arrived at an empty Ukaizo harbor - which was a bit anti-climactic as I expected a fight as difficult as the one with Thaos in PoE 1.

Captain Furrante arrived after I shut off the storm machine, but that fight was too easy on normal difficulty with a level 20 party.

 

 

Ok, so there's at least an actual scene in the game where the Guardian appears and Scyorielaphas fights it off? It's not just "guardian goes poof" ?

 

 

I just finished a run where I freed that Scyrioelphas and I mean... it's an interstitial card in the scripted encounter, but if you're quickly skimming or just mashing the "1. Continue" button you might miss it.