Evaluating T8 and T9 abilities (solo classes)

[Boeroer]

I think Barbarians are also good as a single class. The Shouts can be used as great damage and CC tool with huge AoE for only 1 Rage. Heart of Fury is good. And also Blood Thirst comes a lot earlier which boosts your damage output enormously, especially with a Two Hander.

Monks have some really nice abilities at PL 8 and 9. Whispers of the Whind is great - especially if you have PL bonuses.

Chanters with Sasha's Singing Scimitar are best as Single Class because they can use Empowered Eld Nary in every fight. Eld Nary with PL bonus is very strong. Also: Dragon summon. And Many Lives Pass By comes so much earlier and is very, very good.

Paladins can be great as single class dps/support hybrid in a party with summons because Divine Retribution will give you zeal when a summon in the party goes down. You can use FoD and Inspiring Beacon (for supporting your caster's damage) and so on forever...

Edited September 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

But that Barb will suck pretty badly prior to Blood Thirst. Although I guess it's possible to reach level 13 with little fighting.

 

In general I'm very disappointed in how shallow Barbarians feel. They have ONE active attack prior to PL VIII and it feels very weak before you can stack massive accuracy and damage bonuses. It doesn't interrupt, it doesn't knockdown, it doesn't provide an affliction. It has a CHANCE to do semi-decent damage if it crits (but then it still feels weaksauce next to rogue generic attack no. 1). It also costs TWO rage (which can maybe be later refunded IF it kills).

Shouts are maybe nice, but they are kinda weak prior to their PL NINE upgrades (when they admittedly sound very cool). Level NINETEEN for gods sake. Game's almost over then. 

 

And obviously their Carnage is neutered so that it almost might as well not exist.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Manveru123]

Today I tested Gambit L8 Rogue ability and was  disappointed when it return only 2 resources instead of +2 for each crrit, so then I remember how Obsiddian nerf monks Stunning Surge, so my question - is they nerf Gambit also or it works as expected, because I think that original idea of Gambit is return all resources if you crit 2 times ?

 

 

You're right about mentioning Stunning Surge, the nerf was that resource restoration no longer double-dips when you DW, and it affected other abilities too (like Gambit).

[Boeroer]

But that Barb will suck pretty badly prior to Blood Thirst. Although I guess it's possible to reach level 13 with little fighting.

 

In general I'm very disappointed in how shallow Barbarians feel. They have ONE active attack prior to PL VIII and it feels very weak before you can stack massive accuracy and damage bonuses. It doesn't interrupt, it doesn't knockdown, it doesn't provide an affliction. It has a CHANCE to do semi-decent damage if it crits (but then it still feels weaksauce next to rogue generic attack no. 1). It also costs TWO rage (which can maybe be later refunded IF it kills).

Shouts are maybe nice, but they are kinda weak prior to their PL NINE upgrades (when they admittedly sound very cool). Level NINETEEN for gods sake. Game's almost over then. 

 

And obviously their Carnage is neutered so that it almost might as well not exist.

The Shouts are always nice, not only at lvl 19. Because if you take Spirit Frenzy (which staggers enemies if you hit) you can cause staggered and shaken at the same time with the shouts in a big AoE (in addition to cause staggered with Carnage). You can start combat with Spirit Frenzy and then Leap onto your foes, apply Dazed + Staggered (double chance to causing -5 MIG), then use the yell to again stagger and shake them up. That's Dazed+Staggered+Staggered+Shaken with two actions, giving enemies -5 MIG, -4 PEN, -5 RES and -3 PL.

 

Later on you can even terrifiy them with Spirit Tornado. Savage Defiance --> Stalwart Defiance is great as well: instant cast.

 

I have no idea why you call barbs shallow. Just because of Barbaric Blow? That's arguably not the greatest ability the barb has - but it's not the only nor the defining one.

 

Another great thing of single barbs is that they can use a Morning Star (+Body Blows) + Brute Force quite early (compared to multiclass) which is a great increase in attack quality.

 

Totally fine class to play as single class. Also good as multiclass. I think Obsidian did a good job on this. Barbaric Blow could be better - the "on kill" effects don't work very well since you can't reliably say if the next attack will kill or not, making it fiddly and frustrating to use.  

Edited September 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

Barbaric Blow is not only fiddly, but also too expensive. Also it's the ONLY active button to push for a LONG time. I vastly prefer active abilities of all other classes, barring maybe Ranger's Wounding shot (but at least the Accurate version has it's uses and costs 1 bond).

Savage Defiance might be nice, but is too expensive also.

 

Stagger is maybe nice, but it's what, -15% damage? More importantly -10 Fort, but multiclass Barbs need to wait till level 16 to take advantage of it (okay, Mule Kick, but a Brute seems pretty weak damage wise for an offtank).

How long does Daze from Leap last? Will it survive at least 2 of your attacks? I don't take into consideration effects which last seconds.

 

Pure might be okay after level 13. But still inferior to most other multiclasses.

 

Seems to me Barb is the weakest class. Sure it's okay for casters at level 19, but I don't play my characters basing on their level 19 power.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Manveru123]

 

So weak damn. 

[Haplok]

I don't care about performance at level 20. You don't start the game at level 20.

[Metaturtle]

 

And obviously their Carnage is neutered so that it almost might as well not exist.

 

I can feel Druid's stag carnage seething with utter jealousy in the forgotten corner lol.

[Haplok]

Eh, Druid's Stag was a nice touch, but hardly class defining. Barbs with terrible Carnage and very late access to their main abilities (like Brute Force, Blood Thirst, HoF) feel like a pale shadow of their PoE1 glory.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Manveru123]

I don't care about performance at level 20. You don't start the game at level 20.

Cool, but all you need is level 13. After that it's a faceroll. And considering that you will be level 10 by the time you're done with most of Neketaka, you have quite a lot of the game left.

[Haplok]

And until level 16 you're still stuck with mostly 1 very mediocre and expensive button to push. Awesome.

 

Okay you can also Leap and Daze. Daze will last some 3 seconds longer then your recovery. Or Tornado to scare enemies for what, 4 seconds?

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Manveru123]

How is that different from Swasbuckler spamming Crippling Strike or Paladin spamming FoD? Every class uses mostly just one, most efficient and effective attack. And this barb runs out of resources only if there are no corpses to eat.

[Haplok]

Swash will have significantly more buttons. Finishing Blow, Mule Kick and/or Penetrating Strike, optionally Confounding Blind. Most of them are also way more exciting then Barb Blow. Plus 3 stances, good for different situations (who am I kidding, I rarely switch from Cleaving now).

At level 13 he'll also have Unbending and Charge.

 

As for Paladin, I don't main them, but acknowledge their usefulness as party support. They have some interesting skills outside of direct damage dealing (lay on hands, Shared Flames, Beacon, Aegis of Loyalty, Liberating Exhortation, Endurance aura). 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Manveru123]

A dps Paladin doesn't care about party support. He spams FoD. That's it. Also most of the abilities you listed are passives.

 

And if your Swash uses all those abilities, he'll run out of resources early on during combat and will just autoattack. 1 button > 0 buttons. You have so many options and yet in the end all you need to do to win is spam Crippling Strike. I mean I can take Barbaric Yell and Wild Sprint but why the fook would I ever do that? To have more buttons to push? :D

[Boeroer]

Eh? Why is Barbaric Blow the only active ability? Or do you mean the only active melee ability?

 

And it doesn't really matter that a rogue has more different strikes - they all compete for the same resource. So they don't have "more" ability strikes per encounter - just a wider variety (if they choose different strikes which I usually try to avoid because it's a waste of abilily points). So it doesn't really matter that Barbarian only has one active melee ability until PL 8. I agree that it's too expensive though.

 

And then there is Berserker...

 

 

 

Stagger is maybe nice, but it's what, -15% damage? More importantly -10 Fort, but multiclass Barbs need to wait till level 16 to take advantage of it (okay, Mule Kick, but a Brute seems pretty weak damage wise for an offtank).

What has this to do with single class barbs in the first place? 

[Haplok]

A dps Paladin doesn't care about party support. He spams FoD. That's it. Also most of the abilities you listed are passives.

 

And if your Swash uses all those abilities, he'll run out of resources early on during combat and will just autoattack. 1 button > 0 buttons. You have so many options and yet in the end all you need to do to win is spam Crippling Strike. I mean I can take Barbaric Yell and Wild Sprint but why the fook would I ever do that? To have more buttons to push? :D

 

DPS Paladin is not particularly interesting for me. Doesn't have speed boosts, doesn't have aoe capability. But at least is way more durable then a Barbarian.

 

I frequently use Finishing/Devastating Blow, which deals a lot more damage then Barb Blow for the same cost (provided that you're lucky and Barb Blow crits).

And I interrupt all the time with Mule Kick also, which has a separate resource pool. 

[heldred]

Single class barbs are fine for groups and OK with bosses.

 

The real issue with the class is a lack of T8/T9 choices... everyone turns into a HoF clone single class.

[Haplok]

Eh? Why is Barbaric Blow the only active ability? Or do you mean the only active melee ability?

 

And it doesn't really matter that a rogue has more different strikes - they all compete for the same resource. So they don't have "more" ability strikes per encounter - just a wider variety (if they choose different strikes which I usually try to avoid because it's a waste of abilily points). So it doesn't really matter that Barbarian only has one active melee ability until PL 8. I agree that it's too expensive though.

 

And then there is Berserker...

 

 

 

Stagger is maybe nice, but it's what, -15% damage? More importantly -10 Fort, but multiclass Barbs need to wait till level 16 to take advantage of it (okay, Mule Kick, but a Brute seems pretty weak damage wise for an offtank).

What has this to do with single class barbs in the first place? 

 

Cause single class Barbs suck badly till very high levels and I don't want to play one? Anyway you're right, Stagger does help a single class Barb sooner. He's still left with one, very underwhelming and expensive, attack ability till level 16.

 

And Rogue attack abilities don't just provide variety, they serve different functions as well (DoT, Blind, Hobble, Deflection debuff, killing strike, Daze, Penetration bonus, Accuracy bonus, Weaken) - which also test different defenses.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Single class barbs are fine for groups and OK with bosses.

 

The real issue with the class is a lack of T8/T9 choices... everyone turns into a HoF clone single class.

Not if you want to go for Instrument of Boundless Rage or Dazing Shout + Blood Thirst.

 

Actually being able to do nearly endless Dazing Shouts in a row (when first using Frenzy) with Bloodlust and then -Thirst and regaining rage through Blood Surge is much better than HoF. Dazing Shout costs 1 rage and Blood Surge gives you +1 Rage on kill. You turn into a superspeed cc/nuker with endless resources. 

[Haplok]

You can only pick Blood Surge and IoBR OR Dazing Shout though, can't have both.

Not to mention you're also missing on Barbaric Retaliation then.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Yes, I meant either Dazing Shout + Blood Surge (as a good combo) or Instrument of Boundless Rage as alternatives to a HoF-centered barb. 

 

Dazing Shout is best with (un-confused) Berserker because of the higher PEN. Instruments oBR already has quite high starting PEN and also works well without Berserker. 

 

As a tanky Barbarian who wants to stand in the midst of the enemy group in order to shout a lot (I had Bronlar's Phalanx) Barbaric Retaliation isn't that great anyway.

 

Dazing Shout is also not bad for a Corpse Eater (double the cost but you can refill in most battles) because the +2 PL from certain kith meat food ist nice with those non-weapon abilites.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[pi2repsion]

I don't care about performance at level 20. You don't start the game at level 20.

True enough, but for the purpose of this thread the game starts at level 16, since the topic of this thread deals exclusively with the worth of classes' tier 8 and 9 abilities, i.e., what does a singleclass bring to the table at high levels that a multiclass doesn't, and how valuable is it.

Edited September 11, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Haplok]

Thing is, it is difficult to judge classes basing on their endgame performance only. Barbarian Tier 8 & 9 abilities might be fine (the choice at PL 9 is actually difficult), but IMO they are a horrible class when it matters the most IMO, at low-to-mid levels, when you still face some challenges.

 

So looking at PL 8 and 9 only, they might seem fine. But their career getting there will be vastly inferior to almost any multiclass.

[pi2repsion]

Thing is, it is difficult to judge classes basing on their endgame performance only. Barbarian Tier 8 & 9 abilities might be fine (the choice at PL 9 is actually difficult), but IMO they are a horrible class when it matters the most IMO, at low-to-mid levels, when you still face some challenges.

 

So looking at PL 8 and 9 only, they might seem fine. But their career getting there will be vastly inferior to almost any multiclass.

That might be so, yet it remains utterly irrelevant to the topic of this thread, which is exactly those abilities. If you want to discuss single vs. multiclass as a whole, do so in a thread dedicated to that purpose rather than derailing this thread.

Edited September 11, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Elric Galad]

(sorry for long post)

 

Endgame Single Class basically get 3 different advantages over Multi ones :

- Tier 8 / Tier 9 abilities.

- 2-3 PL, which are very significant for some classes and abilities

- Additional ressources for their class

 

I think all these advantages shall be taken into account to evaluate the power of Single Class, especially compared with Multi Class.

 

 

Methodology :

 

I'm rating A, B, C for Tier 8 / Tier 9 / Ressources Gain / Gain from additional PL, and give a global grade. Please take into account that these grades could be subjective and that I will probably fail to take some stuff into account.

 

Tier 8 / Tier 9 : A : Gamechanging, B : Solid, C : Mediocre

 

Ressources : when going Single Class, you miss the huge advantage of a second pool of ressources. Furthermore, your Top Tier abilities often require a ton of this poor single ressource pool. It is a huge concern for me, so I gave following grades :

A : OK, B : Mediocre, C : Lacking

Basically, I think that casters are A because they have enough cast, and most martial are C because they only get a mediocre +2 ressources compared to the benefit of a secondary pool.

Cipher and chanters are C because they don’t really get more ressource by staying Single Class.

 

Impact of 2-3 PL : A : Very Important, B : Significant, C : Barely Nice

Baiscally, all casters including Ciphers and Chanters are « A » while martial are between « C » and « B » depending on their activated abilities and passive bonus from PL. This tends to counter balance ressource pool.

 

Overall Grade :

A : Some of the best for its Purpose

B : Solid for any party, but won't shine as much as a A

C : Lacking/Gimmicky

 

 

Grades :

 

Wizard ;

Tier 8 : B

Tier 9 : A

Ressources : A

PL : A

Overall : A

 

Priest :

Tier 8 : A

Tier 9 : B

Ressources : A

PL : A

Overall : A

 

Druid :

Tier 8 : B

Tier 9 : B. Solid but a bit less than Wiz.

Ressources : A

PL : A

Overall : A-, because casters make good use of new spell slots and PL, but a bit overshadowed by Wiz. Still, Wiz can’t heal/rez/support, so each class has its perks.

 

Rogue :

Tier 8 : B

Tier 9 : C. Probably B if Vanishing strikes invisibility isn't cancel by attacking. (But still probably cancelled by DoT which doesn't make sense by the way)

Ressources : C. The flask is soon going to be empty.

PL : B (sneak attack and strikes multiplicative bonus damages are nice for single target DPS purpose)

Overall : B-. Ressource pool is the main problem IMHO.

 

Fighter :

Tier 8 : B (Clear Out upgrades are nice, Inspired Discipline is OK)

Tier 9 : B (nothing that good, a bit everything not that bad)

Ressources : C

PL : C

Overall : B-

 

Monk :

Tier 8 : B

Tier 9 : A

Ressources : B (sufficient because of Wounds, but not much upgraded compared to Single Class)

PL : B (fists benefit from it, and lots of ability too)

Overall : A- (- mostly because Monk Multis are so tempting)

 

Barbarian :

Tier 8 : C (HoF too costly)

Tier 9 : A

Ressources : B. Ressources on Kill + cheap shout makes barbarian Single feels less the lack of ressource.

PL : B (because PL applies to carnage, sshouts ?)

Overall : B+

 

Paladin :

Tier 8 : C (because nothing seemsZeal efficient, so you just keep spamming shared flame)

Tier 9 : B (Nothing great, but some okay stuff)

Ressources : C. Lots of abilities, few ressources. But A if using +2 Ressources on Downed ally with summons. It requires party build.

PL : B (lots of activated abilities canbenefit from it)

Overall : B-, unless the Summons trick is used. Then B+/A-. Dependancy on a single trick is harsh, but well.

 

Ranger :

Tier 8 : B. The Single Target DPS increase from Twin Shots is not good and too short-lived compared to what a Scout Multiclass can bring. The only selling point is that a ranger may combine Single Target DPS with AoE on demand thanks whirling strikes. Even a Ranged Ranger should pick Whirling Strikes to use for some fights.

Tier 9 : C (Only Stunning Shot is good for Tier 9.)

Ressources : C

PL : C (does not even buff pet)

Overall : C+/B-. Worst Single Class IMHO. Mostly because Scout does his job better.

 

Cipher :

Tier 8 : B

Tier 9 : A Shared Nightmare is #1 reason to go Single Class IMHO

Ressources : B. Basically every Martial Multiclassed with Cipher is usually going to generate more focus than you. But you get reaping knives.

PL : A

Overall : A-

 

Chanter :

Tier 8 : B*

Tier 9 : B

Ressources : C. Basically not improved by going Single Class.

PL : A

Overall : B. Solid, but nothing really gamechanging. *But then, there is this one scimitar… that could raise the overall grade to B+/A-...

 

 

My (own very personal) Conclusions :

 

I really believe that Single Class have a ressource problem more than an ability problem (even if a couple of abilities/classes might be a bit lacking).

Martial Multi get 18 ressources. Martial Single Class get 11 and actually requires more for their abilities. This is a such Huge Gap, even if I get why Multis should indeed get more ressource.

I think that a good way to improve Single Class would be to give them a bit more ressource at start or latter (+1/+2 ?).

 

And/Or to give them a Tier 8 / Tier 9 ability that increase ressource or enable some regeneration.

Paladin one (Divine Retribution) and Barbarian one (Blood Surge) are good.

Ranger and Rogue lack it entirely. Why not 15% Guile Chance on Crit ? 10% Bond Chance on Pet Hit ?

Fighter one (toughened fury) is complicated to use (unless you're an "undying titan"), has a low occurence and seems even a bit antisynergetic. Chances on Hit (even if lower) would feel better.

Monks don't need that much.

Maybe Chanter could get something too. Maybe a song that generate phrase faster but does nothing on its own ? (might be OP on a Troubadour)

Edited September 11, 2018 by Elric Galad