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Political Thread XX


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#1
Amentep

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That's twenty in Roman Numerals. Thread thirty is going to be a hoot.

 

Gromnir had the last post -

 


You don't have to look very hard to find complaints of Obama "ruling" by EOs. Most people I've talked to actually believed he had the most, if not in all US history then in recent history. Very few actually knew of the specific orders that they hated him for but it was usually the immigration or Fed minimum wage ones. Of course this probably says more about me and the folks that I know more than society as a whole.

As to the Green votes in the Ohio special election, last I checked there weren't enough to change the lead but rather enough to trigger an automatic recount. I got a lot of heat last election for voting Green too even though my state went to Clinton but just like GD I don't think I would have changed my mind if my vote would have been the deciding factor. Wasn't that a Kevin Costner movie? Anyways, 3rd party voters make a better punching bag than the much larger group who don't bother to vote at all.
 
Man, I updated my phone to the new Android P yesterday and my mobile posting has become exactly 37% worse


 
 
it isn't difficult for Gromnir to add to the list o' Obama executive orders which offend beyond immigration and minimum wage, but such stuff is in our wheelhouse as it were.  expansion o' domestic surveillance by means o' order were a particular troublesome example, but is hardly solitary.   can laundry list stuff if need be.  *shrug* in any event, am thinking it is a common mistake to get over invested in the executive orders while ignoring regulations and, to a lesser degree, memorandum and proclamations.   am gonna suggest Obama did more to intrude on legislative domain than any executive since LBJ, and he were bold and unapologetic 'bout it.  his pen and a phone comments were deserved criticized.
 
https://www.washingt...ecutive-action/
 
whether you like universal health care, increased minimum wages, changes to immigration, net neutrality along with some o' the more sinister stuff Obama tired to slip past Congress (and were often failing to do so-- no other recent President, regardless o' party affiliation, has had such a dismal record when facing SCOTUS review) the chief executive's role is not to legislate... and were not just executive orders which Obama were using to transform the Presidency.
 
when Schumer and Pelosi were cheering on Obama as he found ways to marginalize obstructionist (*snort*) republicans, Mitch McConnell (and Gromnir) were warning o' the eventual day o' reckoning.  took little imagination to foresee what would happen when a republican President were sitting in the oval office and had access to a pen and a phone.  
 
thank goodness for the relative impotence o' the current chief executive and the common sense o' a few republicans.  more than once during the recent Prez elections we opined how trump would have much difficulty advancing his policy agenda.  much stuff promised by trump, such as a muslim ban, were patent Unconstitutional, and most other stuff were requiring legislative action.  seeing as how trump were not a consensus builder, we predicted a certain 'mount o' Presidential impotence... and thank goodness we were right.  a more skilled chief executive with advantages o' a majority in both houses woulda' been punishing democrats for the excesses o' Obama. is also a relief republican leadership has chosen to put a stop to some o' the madness o' the previous administration.  trump failure to overcome filibuster has not been met by Congressional effort to change rules such as happened when Obama appointees were being routine held-up.  
 
regardless, numbers of executive orders is extreme misleading even if many conservatives reflexive complain 'bout numbers.  too many conservatives nowadays is only capable o' parroting what they see on fox news or read in a trump tweet... and we all know just how accurate such sources is.  
 
https://www.washingt...m=.7408a268d4c7
 
two quick asides:
 
1) Obama, a Con Law prof complaints o' gridlock bothered us a bit
 
https://forums.obsid...f-19/?p=2076988
 
he knew better.
 
2) Obama didn't wake up on the first day o' his Presidency and single-handed transform the office 'cause Congressional indolence in recent decades made it increasing necessary for chief executives to do what Congress were failing to do.  
 
 
HA! Good Fun!

 

And since we were talking US Political Parties in the last few threads, I'll add the thoughts of one George Washington from 1796 -

 

"However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."


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#2
smjjames

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It seemed like you guys were going to let the page count go past 60 or something, heh.



#3
Gfted1

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Trudeau made a glaring tactical error that's getting Canada hammered by Saudi Arabia.

 

And I am feeling magnanimous this fine morning so I will try to sooth some various booboo's. I also feel that, going back to at least the Bush Sr. administration, the US government has done some things. And at least two (winkyface) posters in this forum are representative of the average Twitter user. That's a pretty wide net and should cover all the bases. :yes:



#4
injurai

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Trudeau made a glaring tactical error that's getting Canada hammered by Saudi Arabia.

 

And I am feeling magnanimous this fine morning so I will try to sooth some various booboo's. I also feel that, going back to at least the Bush Sr. administration, the US government has done some things. And at least two (winkyface) posters in this forum are representative of the average Twitter user. That's a pretty wide net and should cover all the bases. :yes:

 

I give it another decade until the public wakes up to the court of public opinion being a false measure to progress. Accountable closed door proceedings have always carried more weight and allowed for sustained incremental progress with minimized fallout.



#5
smjjames

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Maybe Trumps method of diplomacy by twitter is infecting Canada? ;)



#6
Gfted1

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I give it another decade until the public wakes up to the court of public opinion being a false measure to progress. Accountable closed door proceedings have always carried more weight and allowed for sustained incremental progress with minimized fallout.


I disagree and think it will become even stronger. The "court of public opinion" is a devastating tool that requires no proof or facts and utterly destroys the victim and leaves them with no restitution. Then if the Tweet is disproven everyone simply goes "my bad" and walks away, damage already done.


Disclaimer: Other forms of communication, even originating in forums, can have a similar effect. :lol:

#7
Malcador

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Trudeau made a glaring tactical error that's getting Canada hammered by Saudi Arabia.

And I am feeling magnanimous this fine morning so I will try to sooth some various booboo's. I also feel that, going back to at least the Bush Sr. administration, the US government has done some things. And at least two (winkyface) posters in this forum are representative of the average Twitter user. That's a pretty wide net and should cover all the bases. :yes:


Wouldn't say its being hammered, they'll still sell oil to us here apparently.  https://www.cbc.ca/n...vists-1.4778749 so that's s good.  They are kind of shafting their own a tad by pulling them from Universities and moving patients.

 

KSA's reaction is curiosly aggressive, good thing no one called them out for funding terrorism or something major.

 


Edited by Malcador, 09 August 2018 - 08:13 AM.


#8
Gfted1

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As an aside, why do you have to act like such a **** all the time?



Whatever do you mean, good friend? After somehow making it 14 years without having to provide history spanning examples of my posts, two "totally random" (winkyface) posts occur 2 weeks apart! Im only providing the requested information. With odds like that I should play the Powerball, that bad boy is up to 87M. ;)

#9
Bartimaeus

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As an aside, why do you have to act like such a **** all the time?


At some point, he probably just discovered that that's easier than seriously bothering with arguments anymore, which take a lot more time and energy than they're generally worth. Which I actually sort of get, but my solution for that was just being much more selective with what I argue about (and letting others bear the brunt of the arguing even when I do get involved), rather than just being toxic all the time. Different strokes for different folks and all that, though, :).

Edited by Bartimaeus, 09 August 2018 - 08:55 AM.


#10
Gfted1

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I dont mind "bothering with arguments", I enjoy a good debate. However when a debate turns imbecilic, or a self serving attack, then I like to shine a light and point and laugh at it. :shrugz: Disclaimer: This effect is persistent through all forms of communication that I currently use.



#11
Bartimaeus

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I guess we have different standards for when a debate turns sour, then. Something I sometimes ask myself when communication with someone(s) starts to go sour is, "Would I want everyone to act like I am currently acting?". If the answer is no, then it probably doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong, because the discussion has become miserable and toxic, which also has undoubtedly made it pointless, and so it's time to get out.

#12
Gfted1

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:thumbsup:


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#13
SonicMage117

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Republicans win again for senate. Looks like no matter how much those dirty democrats try to conjur up bad spirits and dirt, Republicans always have that upper hand and smarts to push through strategically. If the war has already been won, why are people trying to strawman the small battles? Answer: Desperation for validation. We need another demo-party to remind people why they walked out and weeped when Hilary lost.

Hmmm... I'm still not picking a side because as a citizen I still believe that no voice is heard, if we used any point of logical reasoning, one will see that voices are not what counts, it's actions. I mean, look at all the thirsty political arguers across social media or news, it's funny to think that people think that what they say matters and that if a few people agree with them that somehow they're right. That's why I chose not to vote in the first place hehe.





But moving on...

On the Trump star removal, I wouldn't be shallow enough to think that the removal somehow discredits or takes away from our president's reputable status. He's still president, he'll trade that star on the ground for a face on Mt. Rushmore and I don't think any of us would be stupid enough to think that's a smaller thing or that someone will vandalize that.

To be technical, the President's star is being removed because anti-Trumpers keep vandalizing it, not because they believe he doesn't deserve the spot but because they still can't accept the man is our president. Do you remember when those pesky democrats promised the world that they would leave America if Trump was elected president? Yeah, it's those peeps, they're still here, salty and complaining.

I really love what the salty democrats have served up here though :p




In case you're wondering, I am not generalizing all democtats as salty, yes, I realize that not all democrats are the same as not all Republicans are the same. I am neither one, for that is what makes me higher/better/superior. Yet if you forget this, view my Republican roast, democrats are just a more vicious type of cancer it seems.

Edited by SonicMage117, 09 August 2018 - 09:32 AM.


#14
smjjames

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Seems like the Republicans could be split into two parties as well, both because they're undergoing the same sort of split and to balance things out with the 'second Democratic party'.

 

Anyways, the real battle is going to be in the House, not the Senate. The 2018 Senate map is so bad for Democrats that I'd consider keeping the status quo a victory.

 

Come 2020 and 2022 (though four years from now is an eternity in politics), watch out! ;) Yeah, I know, most of those are safe Republican seats, the point is that it's the Republicans who will be on the defensive in those years.


Edited by smjjames, 09 August 2018 - 09:56 AM.

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#15
SonicMage117

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Personally I don't mind whoever/whichever side gets the house but I don't think Republicans will be as nearly as salry as democrats if they lose. There really hasn't been such example of Republican chaos and losing minds so strongly as democrats, so I'm not too worried for them. I am however worried for the poor democrat souls if Trump wins again. Barely little effort seems to be going on to support or even defend Trump while far more is happening to protest/insult him. I don't think those particular people realize that they're cause actually works against them.

For example, Shri is a democratic indian immigrant, in hopes that his constant Trump insults on his tv ads will earn him a seat as governor. You should see the comments on his facebook/YouTube. There's something to be said when even the democratic party thinks him a joke. The slogan of "Make America Trump Free, Vote Shri" just isn't very mature but that's the state of democratic desperation right now.

#16
smjjames

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Maybe because Trump is doing indefensible and terrible things? Also because the base is fired up and doesn't want to cooperate with Trump.

 

I agree though that they're (the establishment at least) having trouble finding a message that resonates with the types of voters (no, not the 'deplorables') who went for Trump. The reason why I say that it's the establishment having issues is that the grassroots is energized like heck and are really making headway in many races so far.

 

Winning House and Senate seats is a different ballgame from Presidential and it's not clear that the Democrats have learned their lessions from 2016. I've seen some reports of progressives saying that they should ignore the rural areas and just focus on their base, which I think is the wrong direction. Trying to play Trumps game without sinking to his level and looking terrible is going to be a challenge though. Or maybe the key is just to not play Trumps game like the way Clinton did, but I don't know how much that style helped her.



#17
Gfted1

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Trying to play Trumps game without sinking to his level and looking terrible is going to be a challenge though. Or maybe the key is just to not play Trumps game like the way Clinton did, but I don't know how much that style helped her.



I don't think theres any coming back and this is the new normal. The rampup to the 2020 elections will display an unprecedented rancor.


Other countries also have rancor. :yes:

#18
SonicMage117

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Oh my... The Politics thread just got good for wance.

#19
smjjames

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Trying to play Trumps game without sinking to his level and looking terrible is going to be a challenge though. Or maybe the key is just to not play Trumps game like the way Clinton did, but I don't know how much that style helped her.

I don't think theres any coming back and this is the new normal. The rampup to the 2020 elections will display an unprecedented rancor.Other countries also have rancor. :yes:

We’ve definetly been there with nasty mudslinging before. You know how the insults flew between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams (I believe it was those two)? While it was a bit gentlemanly compared to today (to the modern reader at least), the mudslinging was pretty fierce at times.

I know other countries get nasty with each other during elections, hell, there’s always one or two here that get really nasty, I just hope it doesn’t get to ‘brawl in parliament’ rancorous.

The thing is that Trump doesn’t mudsling like most politicians and the challenge is to get dirty without coming out looking dumb. Just look at Marco Rubios attempt. Though I suspect his was more spur of the moment than practiced.

#20
213374U

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Trudeau made a glaring tactical error that's getting Canada hammered by Saudi Arabia.

 

And I am feeling magnanimous this fine morning so I will try to sooth some various booboo's. I also feel that, going back to at least the Bush Sr. administration, the US government has done some things. And at least two (winkyface) posters in this forum are representative of the average Twitter user. That's a pretty wide net and should cover all the bases. :yes:

 

I know you're not going to openly say who these "at least two" you are referring to are, but care to explain at least what you mean by "the average Twitter user"?

 

I mean, one doesn't have to be a genius to be able to tell when you're doing your little passive-aggressive routine, but let none say that I'm unwilling to grant the benefit of doubt.

 

Speaking of Twitter users, Ol' Musky is in hot water with the SEC after tweets send Tesla stock soaring. Poor guy can't catch a break. :(


Edited by 213374U, 09 August 2018 - 01:25 PM.





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