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Hi,

 

I don't post often but I have had some time on my hands and was crunching a little bit of data on cannons and am sharing that here. Please let me know if you have any issues getting to the image.

 

[Attached] (tried to put the link in here but I am not allowed .png or .jpg extensions. I'll read on what I can do some more and see if I can get the image in here).

 

post-218314-0-30244900-1533234834_thumb.png

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eHih8eyfU7Q11i80PUeAk8o2VeihJaFE

 

This is a heatmap for each cannon's damage out to 24 turns. This does assume 100% hits which while that is not how combat usually goes, it does allow you to see the potential of each cannon and have a level field for comparison between them.  I do not take range into account here, only optimal damage over time. Also in the folder is the Excel file which has additional data and you can see how I did the calculations (I am sure there is a cleaner way, but I need to put some more thought into it).

 

IMO, when choosing a cannon for your ship you need to take into account how you intend to wage your battles. If you want to get to shooting right away you need to pick a long range cannon like the Iron Thunderer or the Imperial Long Gun. Or, you can brave a rush to close quarters and unleash massive damage with the Magranite Flamethrower. However, be advised that if your ship is slow, or has no hull upgrades you may find yourself in Ondra's cold embrace.

 

I think there are only a few "bad" choices here, again use tactics that optimize your cannon's potential. The Aedyr Channel Gun to me is one of the worse choices, if you want long range cannons get the Imperial Long Gun rather.

 

Observations I and others have made:

  • If you are going to board keep an eye on the number of crew the opposing ship has. Use grapeshot to reduce it and time the boarding action when this number is small. I find that having shorter ranged cannon is advantageous to this, and that it doesn't seem to matter how powerful the cannon is with grapeshot (unless you hit the sails with it instead of crew).
  • If you find that your chance to hit is low there are two things I know can improve it. Hold for one turn prior to firing. And, make sure the range is between the minimum and maximum range listed for your cannon(s). Oh, also the skill level of your cannoneer is key.
  • Choose a cannon that matches the jibe speed of your ship, remember the reload you are measuring is between your first shot and the hold prior to shooting "that" broadside again.
  • If you are up against a much higher level captain or a crew too big to overcome in a boarding action use chain shot to immobilize the ship, then you can either escape or use cannon balls to sink them.
  • Fast ships, like the Defiant and Voyager, are harder to hit and can both close for a boarding action faster and, if needed, have a better chance to flee the engagement.
  • The Voyager's unique front/rear cannon allows you to keep a slim profile while taking out the enemies sails and/or crew.
  • more to come...

 

Thanks for your contributions!

1TTFFSSE

Kaylon

thundercheese

Oriz

 

I hope you find this useful. And, I am happy to respond to any questions or receive any comments or constructive criticism.

 

-Toadbat

 

Edit Log:

8/2/2018 - Updated title; cleaned up some grammar; attached heatmap; added additional observations and credits

post-218314-0-30244900-1533234834_thumb.png

Edited by Toadbat
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-Toadbat

 

POE II Class Builds: Siren

POE II Guides: Naval Combat

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I tried a few shipbattles but always ended boarding and battling their crew....Once i tried longe range cannons but realized that magrans minions always rush your ship.

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As I like ship boarding and find just blasting the other ship to smithereens boring I generally like a mix of speed and fire power so the Dhow is my go to ship. Plus that saves me some money mid game to upgrade weapons and armor I use. 

 

Now when I have some cash I upgrade the hull with "The Red Dream" to get over 100 hull health on the Dhow and keep the Sails as "Stormwind Sails" which I can get through Berath Blessings. Bis Sails are "Dragonweave Sails" though. But the Stormwinds provide excellent speed. 

 

Now as for cannons yes I use grapeshot since I board but also I want firepower in case I want to sink them.

 

So on one side I run 3x double-bronzer on the dhow and instead of reloading them you do a 2 turn jibe and fire some other guns.

If I was trying to do a boring destroy enemy ship tactic I would run double bronzers on both sides or get a junk but that is not what I am after.

 

So on the other side I load 1x Haefric Nose because it is a fast powerful gun with good range, and 2x Iron Thunderers - basically to align 4 turn reload speed and good range. For flexibility. Usually works.

 

I think The absolute best weapon for grapeshotting an opposing crew to 0 fast though is the new Magrite Flamethrower. Yes it has no range (0-75m) but you don't need range if you want to reduce enemy crew as much as possible and board. And it is at 2 turns reload - so it is definitely worth a try in this type of strategy. So I might do something like 3x double bronzers in one side and 1x haefric and 2x magrites on the other. 

 

Usual start is to get into approximate 300-400 meter range at first, and start grape shotting. If they come closer as I jibe even better because my cannons cover the close range. And their crew is quickly reduced to 0 before I board. 

 

If it is a rathun long ship I start with longer guns from 500+ meter range and jibe into the double bronzers as they get closer. 

Edited by 1TTFFSSE

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Unless you are on the starter ship, i only use double bronzers as the 8 turn reload is perfect to jibe,wait, fire, jibe,wait,fire.

 

If on the starter ship, i do double bronzers on one side, shoot with that side once, jibe, shoot with the 3 turn reload starter cannons twice, then jibe and fire the big ones again.

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Does using grapeshot to down crew members actually change how many enemies you face when you board? I thought it didn't.

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OP could you clarify what your Google document represents?

 

I've found the ranges listed on the cannons to be just a guideline. If i have cannoneers that have decent rank my double bronzers (range listed as 250-350) seem to hit just fine anywhere between 200-500m out.

 

Due to the have damage inflicted with the double bronzers and their ability to hit away further than their tooltip states, I can't really find any use for other cannons except for maybe on a dhow which jibes in 2.

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OP now I understand your chart. I think a chart would need to be customized for each type of ship to be more useful to look at this alongside the amount of time it takes to jibe for each ship.

 

Most ship to ship combat is based off firing, then jibe, then wait, then fire, then repeat. So the damage from a single Cannon over 24 turns might be too short off a time to get real data.

 

I think a better data point would be average damage divided by reload time.

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OP could you clarify what your Google document represents?

 

I've found the ranges listed on the cannons to be just a guideline. If i have cannoneers that have decent rank my double bronzers (range listed as 250-350) seem to hit just fine anywhere between 200-500m out.

 

Due to the have damage inflicted with the double bronzers and their ability to hit away further than their tooltip states, I can't really find any use for other cannons except for maybe on a dhow which jibes in 2.

It is true about the range I noticed that after enemy ships fired cannons and hit at me at ranges that where nor "ideal" for the guns used.

 

Also, actually since you technically want to "hold" before firing off a cannon volley the Dhow 2 turn jibe is ideal for 8 turns double bronzer reload. At a three turn jibe you would I think be losing a turn per shot volley.

 

here is sequence:

Side A

1 Fire Volley

2 Jibe

3 Jibe complete Now on Side B

4 Hold

5 Fire Volley

6 Jibe

7 Jibe Complete (Now on side A again)

8 Hold

9 (1) repeat

 

Anyways when I tried that on A Dhow with Double Bronzers jibing on both sides I never had a delay due to reload. 

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Does using grapeshot to down crew members actually change how many enemies you face when you board? I thought it didn't.

Yes it does I don't know from which patch it is active from but currently, it works that way now you can board a ship having reduced the number of enemies you face while boarding that way.

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Does using grapeshot to down crew members actually change how many enemies you face when you board? I thought it didn't.

Yes it does I don't know from which patch it is active from but currently, it works that way now you can board a ship having reduced the number of enemies you face while boarding that way.

 

Also remember that if the vessel you are attacking has a surgeon on board that they can heal crew you took out of commission. You can see when a crew member will be healed if you watch the enemy action icons.

 

-T


-Toadbat

 

POE II Class Builds: Siren

POE II Guides: Naval Combat

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OP now I understand your chart. I think a chart would need to be customized for each type of ship to be more useful to look at this alongside the amount of time it takes to jibe for each ship.

 

Most ship to ship combat is based off firing, then jibe, then wait, then fire, then repeat. So the damage from a single Cannon over 24 turns might be too short off a time to get real data.

 

I think a better data point would be average damage divided by reload time.

Glad you figured it out :) I'll see if I can add some clarifying comments. Average damage by reload time is actually what is going on here, it's just that I have also aggregated it over time. The reason I did it this way was because if you new that your style was to hit them and then rush in (firing just once, or maybe once per broadside) then you can see that the big slow guns are best. But, if you usually have a much more protracted battle then cannons like the double bronzer does less damage than even the Hog Nose.

 

I do agree that I could expand the model to include ship type with total damage by number of cannon optimized by how fast they jibe. And, I may do that. This was just a quick and dirty chart that, I hope, provides new players or players less familiar with the data a scorecard that allows them to make an informed choice. Mostly I did this because when I researched the ship upgrades I had a hard time finding consolidated information. Most of the guides I found just listed the expensive options, but after playing I found that the Hogs Noses usually performed as well as anything else (I grapeshot/jib/grapeshot, then barrel toward the enemy for boarding). Which reminds me, I need to find the shot type modifiers and work that data in :)

 

-T


-Toadbat

 

POE II Class Builds: Siren

POE II Guides: Naval Combat

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OP could you clarify what your Google document represents?

 

I've found the ranges listed on the cannons to be just a guideline. If i have cannoneers that have decent rank my double bronzers (range listed as 250-350) seem to hit just fine anywhere between 200-500m out.

 

Due to the have damage inflicted with the double bronzers and their ability to hit away further than their tooltip states, I can't really find any use for other cannons except for maybe on a dhow which jibes in 2.

It is true about the range I noticed that after enemy ships fired cannons and hit at me at ranges that where nor "ideal" for the guns used.

 

Also, actually since you technically want to "hold" before firing off a cannon volley the Dhow 2 turn jibe is ideal for 8 turns double bronzer reload. At a three turn jibe you would I think be losing a turn per shot volley.

 

here is sequence:

Side A

1 Fire Volley

2 Jibe

3 Jibe complete Now on Side B

4 Hold

5 Fire Volley

6 Jibe

7 Jibe Complete (Now on side A again)

8 Hold

9 (1) repeat

 

Anyways when I tried that on A Dhow with Double Bronzers jibing on both sides I never had a delay due to reload. 

 

 

Yeah you lose 1 turn on the Junk, due to the 3 turns Jibe. But you also have 5 (x2) double bronzers as opposed to 4 (x2). Considering the AI will often move randomly, giving you Raking damage, that 1 extra cannon matters and you can get lucky and sink the enemy in 1 round of fire :p .

 

Edit: Well 1 turn for each side, so for a full set of firing you lose 2 rounds on the Junk.

Edited by Kian

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Does using grapeshot to down crew members actually change how many enemies you face when you board? I thought it didn't.

Damaging crew makes it so you don’t fight the crew when you board. You still have to fight the ship’s defenders (Shown in lower right during ship combat). The same happens to you. If your crew is injured, they don’t participate in ship battles, but your companions/sidekicks always show up since they are technically ship defenders.

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Thanks for clarifying on the crew not participating in combat and thanks for posting this thread, I know I enjoy the ship to ship combat more than most people seem to.

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Also worth noting that the orientation of the enemy ship alters hit chance; if it is perpendicular to you you are more likely to miss.

 

I also much prefer to just board, but if I see they have a large crew I shoot a volley or 2 of grapeshot. Dhow is perfect for this; just enough defenses to close on a Junk without dying and more cannons than The Defiant.

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Against higher level enemies it's better to avoid boarding and try to sink them instead (especially if you play solo potd). For these situations the first condition is to be faster than the enemy - able to move and maneuver fast - in order to stay out of the boarding range or flee if needed. Because of that the Defiant and the Voyager are the only viable choices.

 

It's always better to destroy their sails first in order to reduce the enemy's speed and be able to keep them in your optimal range.

 

For me the fastest cycle is fire port, jibe ,hold, fire starboard, jibe, hold,... - which means you have 6 turns to reload. However you can lose often more turns in order to adjust the distance or to defend against enemy's shots.

 

Staying in the ideal range and being able to hold position does more for your damage than the power or the reload time of your canons. In general you should fire when you're in the 150-400 range (if they have sails) in order to avoid boarding or prevent the enemy from fleeing.

 

Wit all that said, for me the best canon overall for the Defiant is the royal bronzer which offers perfect range, decent damage and enough reloading speed.

 

Against big ships a viable strategy is to use a Voyager with Haeferic's Nose at the back - you stay out of the enemy's ideal range and shoot until their sails are destroyed (if they turn to flee you turn towards them and use the 2 imperial guns at the front).

 

At higher level, when you don't care if you're boarded anymore (and you just want to win as fast as possible) a junk using double bronzers to clear the deck is probably the best option.

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Against higher level enemies it's better to avoid boarding and try to sink them instead (especially if you play solo potd). For these situations the first condition is to be faster than the enemy - able to move and maneuver fast - in order to stay out of the boarding range or flee if needed. Because of that the Defiant and the Voyager are the only viable choices.

 

It's always better to destroy their sails first in order to reduce the enemy's speed and be able to keep them in your optimal range.

 

For me the fastest cycle is fire port, jibe ,hold, fire starboard, jibe, hold,... - which means you have 6 turns to reload. However you can lose often more turns in order to adjust the distance or to defend against enemy's shots.

 

Staying in the ideal range and being able to hold position does more for your damage than the power or the reload time of your canons. In general you should fire when you're in the 150-400 range (if they have sails) in order to avoid boarding or prevent the enemy from fleeing.

 

Wit all that said, for me the best canon overall for the Defiant is the royal bronzer which offers perfect range, decent damage and enough reloading speed.

 

Against big ships a viable strategy is to use a Voyager with Haeferic's Nose at the back - you stay out of the enemy's ideal range and shoot until their sails are destroyed (if they turn to flee you turn towards them and use the 2 imperial guns at the front).

 

At higher level, when you don't care if you're boarded anymore (and you just want to win as fast as possible) a junk using double bronzers to clear the deck is probably the best option.

This.... sticky this.

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Dont know about solo, but in regular game on PotD it's much faster and easer just rush and board, than make some tactics about naval battle. And if you take fastest ship with fastest upgrades there is no way enemy will disengage from battle.

In first walkthrough i spent quite of time in naval battles. It was fun at start, became annoying at the end. So in second i just started to insta board.

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Dont know about solo, but in regular game on PotD it's much faster and easer just rush and board, than make some tactics about naval battle. And if you take fastest ship with fastest upgrades there is no way enemy will disengage from battle.

In first walkthrough i spent quite of time in naval battles. It was fun at start, became annoying at the end. So in second i just started to insta board.

Same.  I just ended up starting to grab the most hull and sails hps I could, then always close and board. made the encounter(s) so much faster.  The only time it got even a bit stressful was when you had 2-3 enemy ships right on top of each other and had to do one after the other with no repair time.

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I found a maxed out Junk with sail and hull upgrades to be the best ship combat.

 

  1. Close to range 
  2. turn to port or starboard
  3. hold
  4. fire
  5. jibe
  6. jibe
  7. jibe
  8. hold
  9. fire
  10. repeat

I also found removing sails as a waste. The enemy can still fire, its not as if I can maneuver such that I am out of their firing arc. I can't 'cross the T' and fire raking shots avoiding their broadside, while they are immobile due to the loss of their sails. Taking out the hull always works and minimizes the amount of return fire that I receive.

 

Boarding tends to result in the entire enemy ship firing firearms at my MC and killing them. Always seemed safer and faster to just sink the ship.

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Against higher level enemies it's better to avoid boarding and try to sink them instead (especially if you play solo potd). For these situations the first condition is to be faster than the enemy - able to move and maneuver fast - in order to stay out of the boarding range or flee if needed. Because of that the Defiant and the Voyager are the only viable choices.

 

It's always better to destroy their sails first in order to reduce the enemy's speed and be able to keep them in your optimal range.

 

For me the fastest cycle is fire port, jibe ,hold, fire starboard, jibe, hold,... - which means you have 6 turns to reload. However you can lose often more turns in order to adjust the distance or to defend against enemy's shots.

 

Staying in the ideal range and being able to hold position does more for your damage than the power or the reload time of your canons. In general you should fire when you're in the 150-400 range (if they have sails) in order to avoid boarding or prevent the enemy from fleeing.

 

Wit all that said, for me the best canon overall for the Defiant is the royal bronzer which offers perfect range, decent damage and enough reloading speed.

 

Against big ships a viable strategy is to use a Voyager with Haeferic's Nose at the back - you stay out of the enemy's ideal range and shoot until their sails are destroyed (if they turn to flee you turn towards them and use the 2 imperial guns at the front).

 

At higher level, when you don't care if you're boarded anymore (and you just want to win as fast as possible) a junk using double bronzers to clear the deck is probably the best option.

Thanks Kaylon, good information.

 

All, I am going to go back through the responses so far, compile it and add it to the top. I didn't realize that the interest would be this high :). So, keep the tips and questions coming in!

 

-T


-Toadbat

 

POE II Class Builds: Siren

POE II Guides: Naval Combat

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It would be nice if you could add to your guide the bonuses to precision depending on crew, ship type, distance and various maneuvers.

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