[Mod] Rogue Tweaks and Subclasses

[Armakoir]

In order to play the exact kind of character I wanted, I created the Swiftblade subclass and throwing weapons. What I realized playing with my mods was how different the Rogue felt to me than the vanilla version. My character felt more agile and more independent; it felt more like a rogue than a stealthy fighter.

And modding is addicting. So I'm taking the idea that simple changes can result in noticeably different gameplay experiences and adding more subclasses while tweaking the base Rogue class. What follows is a description of the changes I intend or plan to make, and I welcome your feedback and ideas.


Base Rogue Changes
Since I'm modding the Rogue progression table, I've decided to tweak the PLs (and Guile cost) of abilities. This is the ability tree after the changes (numbers represent changed Guile values).
https://imgur.com/sO86w9v
I will also be changing the status effect of the Smoke Cloud skills to inflict Confusion (instead of Distracted).
I will be changing the status effect of the Sap attacks to Shaken (instead of Confusion). I'm also considering making Sap and its upgrade into a Riposte attack.


Subclass Distinction
At the design level, I'm distinguishing between Overt and Covert rogues in terms of combat abilities. Overt rogues rely more on the steady damage boost of Sneak Attack (or something similar) and less on the burst stealth-based damage. Covert rogues are the opposite, and usually lose Sneak Attack for Surprise Attack (the current non-stealth Backstab-like ability of the Swiftblade).

I'm planning the following for v1
Overt rogues: Streetfighter, Trickster, Sapper, Acrobat, Chameleon
Covert rogues : Assassin, Swiftblade, Specter

I'm pushing the Cutpurse until a later version.


Subclass Details
Streetfighter
Remove Backstab. Otherwise unchanged.

Trickster
Remove Backstab, but retains the maximum Sneak Attack. Otherwise unchanged.

Sapper
Bonus- Existing Rogue attack abilities (Hobbling, Blinding, Strike the Bell, and Withering) become AoE trap-themed ranged attacks. Status effects remain the same and I may have to define damage types for each attack (meaning Sappers care less about equipped weapons). The entry tier attack will cause damage to all while the upgraded attacks will be hostile only.
Penalty- Sappers do not get Sneak Attack or Backstab.

Acrobat
Bonus- Passive ability that grants +1 Deflection and +1 Reflex for each point into Athletics. Escape no longer costs Guile. The Flurry of Blades branch gets changed to something like Skyward Kick.
Penalty- Recovery Speed penalty from Armor is increased by 25-50%. Does not get Backstab.

Chameleon
(now considered an Overt Rogue)
Bonus- Gains an active ability that flips the Chameleon's allegiance (something akin to Confusion) during which abilities cannot be used and outgoing damage is reduced (hopefully only against the player party) based upon the character's Bluff skill. After the duration ends, a large radius hostile only AoE is triggered that causes Confusion.
Penalty- Loses access to Backstab.

Assassin
Bonus- Gains a version of Marked Prey that takes on the Assassinate bonuses. Can be used 1 per Encounter and does not break stealth. Target must be a higher power level than the Assassin. If the Assassin kills the target he gains 3-4 Guile. Also gains a Garrote DoT-like attack that deals minimal damage while testing all four defenses and, if successful, outright kills an enemy; can only target Kith. Gains the Surprise Attack passive.
Penalty- Does not have Sneak Attack and still takes increased incoming damage.

Swiftblade
Bonus- Gains the passives Surprise Attack and Quick Switch. Gains either an Improved Riposte or a % chance to proc an additional attack.
Penalty- Does not have Sneak Attack.
(I would love to implement an ability/attack that hits with the currently equipped weapon set, automatically changes to the next weapon set, and strikes again. But I don't know if this is possible.)

Specter
Bonus- Gains a Shadow-like companion that must be summoned and lasts for a duration. Summoning must occur during stealth or invisibility and does not break either. Summoning does not cost Guile. The companion gains the Rogue attack abilities (the same four as the Sapper) as Guile-based attacks; the Specter cannot use these abilities himself.
Penalty- Both the Specter and companion do not get Sneak Attack.

At present, I seem to be the only one making significant changes to the Rogue class. If anyone would like to suggest additional classes or you have some wild idea for an ability, I'm all ears. And if you want to help me out, that would be great too. Also, help me name things (abilities, classes, whatever); I hate that part.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Armakoir

[kilay]

Nice ideas. Keep on track.

[Kexby]

I love these ideas, I was planning to do something similar for my Harbinger (Rogue/Chanter).

 

I've been working on the Chanter's summon invocations, I've managed to increase their duration, but I haven't managed to figure out how to remove the resource cost (maybe just lowering it would be enough) so I'm very interested to see how you go about this.

 

I'll be following this thread with interest

[peardox]

Read my sig

 

Kexby is a member

 

We're here to help!

[Armakoir]

I've edited the original post with a few changes. Hopefully I'll get a playable, roughly tested version out by next weekend.

[Kexby]

Specter

Bonus- Gains a Shadow-like companion that must be summoned and lasts for a duration. Summoning must occur during stealth or invisibility and does not break either. Summoning does not cost Guile. The companion gains the Rogue attack abilities (the same four as the Sapper) as Guile-based attacks; the Specter cannot use these abilities himself.

Penalty- Both the Specter and companion do not get Sneak Attack.

 

 

This sounds terrific! I'd love to play something like this.

 

I'm really keen to see how you go about this. I've had no luck with the Chanter's summons, it seems there's just no way to summon her minions if she's not in combat.

 

So I really hope you can get this to work (so I can study how you did it ).

[Armakoir]

I hope so to!

 

The question will be: does calling a companion (like a ghost heart ranger) function exactly like summoning skeletons or imps?

 

If yes, I'll have problems. If not, then I'll see what's possible.

[kilay]

I hope so to!

 

The question will be: does calling a companion (like a ghost heart ranger) function exactly like summoning skeletons or imps?

 

If yes, I'll have problems. If not, then I'll see what's possible.

 

i don't think they work in the same way

 

https://eternity.obsidian.net/game-data-formats/enumerations#aisummontype

Edited August 7, 2018 by kilay

[Purudaya]

Instead of a manual (and free) long duration summon, it might be fun to give the specter an automatic short-duration summon whenever it enters stealth. Alternatively, you could also give the class a duration boost to all stealth abilities and have the companion automatically summon/unsummon when the rogue enters/leaves stealth. Would create some interesting choices and prevent too much time spent in recovery from non-damaging abilities.

 

Feedback on base changes: I really like the guile cost tweaks (except maybe making smoke veil and shadowing beyond the same cost), but the tier increase for the finishing blow tree might be a little too high as the base ability isn't that strong and multiclasses would be locked out from the rest. Maybe increase the PL distance between finishing blow and devastating/eliminating blow instead? It would also be cool to see backstab linked to PL for applicable classes the way sneak attack currently is, but I'm not sure how easy that is to implement.

 

I've tested your Swiftblade so far it's both well-balanced and fun to play. Nice work!

Edited August 7, 2018 by Purudaya

[aweigh0101]

Swiftblade concept sounds REALLY good. It always annoyed me that PoE rogues need to be stealthed to rogue-out.

[esyvjrt]

Subclass: The rogue pretends to be not so much of a threat playing clumsy.

+:Reduced target priority        -: Reduced movement speed

+:Increased critical damage    -: Reduced action speed

                                               -: Reduced critical ratio

Edited August 8, 2018 by esyvjrt

[Armakoir]

Subclass: The rogue pretends to be not so much of a threat playing clumsy.

+:Reduced target priority        -: Reduced movement speed

+:Increased critical damage    -: Reduced action speed

                                               -: Reduced critical ratio

Interesting. What about a alcoholic pirate that is drunk and not clumsy?

 

 

Swiftblade concept sounds REALLY good. It always annoyed me that PoE rogues need to be stealthed to rogue-out.

The Swiftblade is available right now on Nexus, and it won't be undergoing a whole bunch of changes with this new mod.

 

 

Instead of a manual (and free) long duration summon, it might be fun to give the specter an automatic short-duration summon whenever it enters stealth. Alternatively, you could also give the class a duration boost to all stealth abilities and have the companion automatically summon/unsummon when the rogue enters/leaves stealth. Would create some interesting choices and prevent too much time spent in recovery from non-damaging abilities.

 

Feedback on base changes: I really like the guile cost tweaks (except maybe making smoke veil and shadowing beyond the same cost), but the tier increase for the finishing blow tree might be a little too high as the base ability isn't that strong and multiclasses would be locked out from the rest. Maybe increase the PL distance between finishing blow and devastating/eliminating blow instead? It would also be cool to see backstab linked to PL for applicable classes the way sneak attack currently is, but I'm not sure how easy that is to implement.

 

I've tested your Swiftblade so far it's both well-balanced and fun to play. Nice work!

Thank you for the feedback Purudaya and I'm glad you came to post here.

 

So, the Specter. Your idea makes the most sense: stealth/invisibility autocasts shadow. Unfortunately, because summoning is an attack, it looks like you have to choose a target or a point on the ground using mouseclick. There is not a "random location within an AoE" option that I can see for summoning, which means I can't really autocast the summon.

 

But... I can make the reverse happen pretty easily: summoning a shadow automatically makes the Specter invisible. And I think I'll work this functionality into the Specter.

 

 

Regarding the other changes to the Rogue class, I'm going to leave Finishing Blow as is for now, but I've moved Gambit to PL7 (mostly to fill in the unlock options at that level). I may end up changing the Guile cost of the first Smoke to 1, but I haven't decided yet.

 

 

Lastly, we received your mod request and I'll be handling it. You mention that Sneak Attack powerlevels. Is that true? (Edit: You're right, it does level!) Have I just not noticed it, because I feel like it doesn't. Regardless, there may be issuing using the powerlevel mechanic. However, we can do a ghetto version that still stays pretty clean (basically, we can autogrant replacement Backstab abilities at every power level that boost the damage bonus). It's a little tedious but it's doable.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Armakoir

[Armakoir]

I've reached a good halfway point with this mod and I'd like to get some more extensive playtesting done. The only new subclass besides the Swiftblade is the Acrobat, but I have a feeling the changes to the vanilla subclasses will make them play and feel quite different.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/192/

 

With this release, if you are playing along, I'm not entirely sure the Sap, Perplexing Sap, Hidden Blade, and Leaping Riposte status effects will proc. If you do or do not see these effects, let me know. Also, keep an eye out on Marked for Death and the Assassinate passive to see if they are working properly. And balance! Have these changes unbalanced something? Or whatever else you find.

 

Next up I'll be working on the Chameleon (possibly renamed Spy or Agent) and the Spectre (I like this British spelling better).

 

Best.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Armakoir

[Purudaya]

 

Subclass: The rogue pretends to be not so much of a threat playing clumsy.

+:Reduced target priority        -: Reduced movement speed

+:Increased critical damage    -: Reduced action speed

                                               -: Reduced critical ratio

Interesting. What about a alcoholic pirate that is drunk and not clumsy?

 

 

Swiftblade concept sounds REALLY good. It always annoyed me that PoE rogues need to be stealthed to rogue-out.

The Swiftblade is available right now on Nexus, and it won't be undergoing a whole bunch of changes with this new mod.

 

 

Instead of a manual (and free) long duration summon, it might be fun to give the specter an automatic short-duration summon whenever it enters stealth. Alternatively, you could also give the class a duration boost to all stealth abilities and have the companion automatically summon/unsummon when the rogue enters/leaves stealth. Would create some interesting choices and prevent too much time spent in recovery from non-damaging abilities.

 

Feedback on base changes: I really like the guile cost tweaks (except maybe making smoke veil and shadowing beyond the same cost), but the tier increase for the finishing blow tree might be a little too high as the base ability isn't that strong and multiclasses would be locked out from the rest. Maybe increase the PL distance between finishing blow and devastating/eliminating blow instead? It would also be cool to see backstab linked to PL for applicable classes the way sneak attack currently is, but I'm not sure how easy that is to implement.

 

I've tested your Swiftblade so far it's both well-balanced and fun to play. Nice work!

Thank you for the feedback Purudaya and I'm glad you came to post here.

 

So, the Specter. Your idea makes the most sense: stealth/invisibility autocasts shadow. Unfortunately, because summoning is an attack, it looks like you have to choose a target or a point on the ground using mouseclick. There is not a "random location within an AoE" option that I can see for summoning, which means I can't really autocast the summon.

 

But... I can make the reverse happen pretty easily: summoning a shadow automatically makes the Specter invisible. And I think I'll work this functionality into the Specter.

 

 

Regarding the other changes to the Rogue class, I'm going to leave Finishing Blow as is for now, but I've moved Gambit to PL7 (mostly to fill in the unlock options at that level). I may end up changing the Guile cost of the first Smoke to 1, but I haven't decided yet.

 

 

Lastly, we received your mod request and I'll be handling it. You mention that Sneak Attack powerlevels. Is that true? (Edit: You're right, it does level!) Have I just not noticed it, because I feel like it doesn't. Regardless, there may be issuing using the powerlevel mechanic. However, we can do a ghetto version that still stays pretty clean (basically, we can autogrant replacement Backstab abilities at every power level that boost the damage bonus). It's a little tedious but it's doable.

 

 

Thanks for taking on the request! I'll look forward to seeing what implementation you come up with

[Armakoir]

Update regarding the Spectre. I've settled on the concept of summoning either (1) an "animal" companion that trains skills alongside the Spectre, or (2) a regular non-companion summon that has a predetermined ability list (something akin to the wizard's Substantial Phantom).

 

#1 has far more gameplay potential. It would essentially allow a Spectre to summon a controllable companion (which could use Blinding Strike, Withering Strike, etc) while the Spectre himself goes invisible and gets ready for Backstab. Or stays invisible and "pops smoke" in military parlance.

 

However, neither appear to be possible right now because all the data regarding what is being summoned is contained within a prefab. If that prefab reference gets broken up into progression table, character, graphical, etc references, then we're in business. I could settle for just summoning uncontrolled shades, spectres, and shadows, but this isn't very exciting from a gameplay perspective.

 

 

So instead I'll be working on the Chameleon and Sapper next.

 

The Chameleon is turning more into an Agent or Spy with an ability branch that causes confusion (as before) and domination. Maybe something else Will based.

 

The Sapper is being renamed Saboteur (much more roguelike) and is no longer about throwing traps (I'll leave that for a Ranger subclass). Instead, the Sab plants explosives via abilities on enemies. What I'm really hoping to accomplish with the Saboteur is a Detonate ability that triggers multiple (and varying types) explosions at the same time. So, the Sab would run around attaching bombs to bad guys, then activate Detonate to create one massive explosion (that my crappy laptop will not be able to handle graphically).

[kilay]

However, neither appear to be possible right now because all the data regarding what is being summoned is contained within a prefab. If that prefab reference gets broken up into progression table, character, graphical, etc references, then we're in business. I could settle for just summoning uncontrolled shades, spectres, and shadows, but this isn't very exciting from a gameplay perspective.

 

Also name and icon goes buggy and all other ranger companions icons become blank .. great drawback

[Armakoir]

Alongside bug fixes I've added the Saboteur subclass and Nexus has been updated.

 

The Saboteur will definitely need some balancing, but I think it could be a very fun class to play. I've basically taken the pickpocket version of the explosives consumables and put them in ability form. Once attached to a target (any target, including barrels or friendly party members) the explosive will trigger after 10secs. OR you can use the Detonate ability and instantly trigger everything within 8m for a battlefield of explosions.

 

I've very interested to see how people use this subclass.

[sarcongin]

I was thinking a solo character trap/explosives heavy armored dwarf engineer with a shield and pistol. Decided to roll unbroken/rogue and soon realised that damage wise it isn't really viable. This mod gives me hope! I'll try unbroken/saboteur and see how it goes! Great job btw. Thx for your hard work.