Josh:"The Watcher don't have particular reason to fight Eothas."

[Guest]

The game has plenty of themes, even if they don't mention them outright.

 

It's true, as some people have said, that you do change the history of the Deadfire. Choosing which faction comes out on top is pretty significant. However, after you come back from Ashen Maw, fresh with the revelation that Eothas is going to potentially destroy all life on the planet, the squabbles of Deadfire's factions seem so... petty and irrelevant. Okay, so I've backed the queen. Doesn't matter if all life on the planet is extinguished in a generation or two.

 

I think this is because they don't explain Eothas' motives properly, but the final two conversations with him are such downers. He's breaking the cycle of life and death to prove some great philosophical point about the nature of people and the gods, and screw the consequences. That's like two kings starting a war for some noble cause. Sure, to them it sounds noble, but it's the little people who are going to get hurt. Some god of goodness.

 

Achilles?

Eothas was more or less predictable since the first game. Eder talks about Eothas’ love of kith at every opportunity. The Great Western Stag (in-game book) should have had a spoiler tag on it. The fact that he’s here to cut the cord between kith and the gods is not a surprise; the fact that he’s going to destroy the Wheel to accomplish this is.

 

He loves kith and believes that they are capable of more than the Engwithans believed, just as Iovara did. This isn’t an esoteric philosophical disagreement that has no bearing on anything of consequence; this is the difference between being a slave and being free.

[house2fly]

Nobody ever said he's the god of goodness. He's the god of rebirth, hope, redemption and dawn. Makes perfect sense that he'd take action to kick off a new age and trust that people will make it work

Edited July 29, 2018 by house2fly

[Guest]

 

 

You're trying to think why it should matter that you were there? That whether you were there or not has no significance?

 

So you're basically saying it's ok to be the main character in the story and have no relevance? Like not even trying to be relevant? Because that's basically what this game forces you to do. They don't even allow you to fail, you fail by default.

As others have pointed out, the Watcher does have a great deal of relevance...just not when it comes to stopping a god. Which is fine with me because the objective of the game was never to stop a god. “Fail” assumes that there was an objective. There wasn’t. *You* seem to think there was and I can’t figure out where that comes from other than expectations you created.

Let's just agree that you disagree with most people then. What you and a few others have mentioned as being relevant many others including myself have discarded as actually being relevant. Well, at least you felt important doing things that would have also happened without you there. I rather be doing something that was actually important. But hey, we all have different things we enjoy.

You’ve had numerous opportunities to plead your case and have refused at every turn. So far as I can tell, you just want me to roll over and accept that the plot is something other than what it is just because you say so.

 

If you’re done, that’s fine with me. If you want to persuade me that your argument has merit, I’m happy to hear you out, but handwaving isn’t going to cut it.

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

 

You're trying to think why it should matter that you were there? That whether you were there or not has no significance?

 

So you're basically saying it's ok to be the main character in the story and have no relevance? Like not even trying to be relevant? Because that's basically what this game forces you to do. They don't even allow you to fail, you fail by default.

As others have pointed out, the Watcher does have a great deal of relevance...just not when it comes to stopping a god. Which is fine with me because the objective of the game was never to stop a god. “Fail” assumes that there was an objective. There wasn’t. *You* seem to think there was and I can’t figure out where that comes from other than expectations you created.

 

Let's just agree that you disagree with most people then. What you and a few others have mentioned as being relevant many others including myself have discarded as actually being relevant. Well, at least you felt important doing things that would have also happened without you there. I rather be doing something that was actually important. But hey, we all have different things we enjoy.

 

You’ve had numerous opportunities to plead your case and have refused at every turn. So far as I can tell, you just want me to roll over and accept that the plot is something other than what it is just because you say so.

 

If you’re done, that’s fine with me. If you want to persuade me that your argument has merit, I’m happy to hear you out, but handwaving isn’t going to cut it.

 

Nah, I don't really want to go on discussing with someone who just says "I disagree" with every answer. I even tried examples, but you're not even up to discuss those. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I like to have more impact in a story, you're fine with imagining you have an impact.

[Guest]

I can’t disagree with you until you actually make an argument. What I have repeatedly said is that you’re confused about what the plot is. You’ve said nothing to disabuse me of this.

[Heijoushin]

Eothas was more or less predictable since the first game. Eder talks about Eothas’ love of kith at every opportunity. The Great Western Stag (in-game book) should have had a spoiler tag on it. The fact that he’s here to cut the cord between kith and the gods is not a surprise; the fact that he’s going to destroy the Wheel to accomplish this is.

He loves kith and believes that they are capable of more than the Engwithans believed, just as Iovara did. This isn’t an esoteric philosophical disagreement that has no bearing on anything of consequence; this is the difference between being a slave and being free.

 

The Great Western Stag, huh? Does that mention something significant about the nature of Eothas? I'll check it out next time I play.

 

The different between being a slave and being free? I dunno... Nobody seems to be complaining about being "enslaved" to the gods, though. Well, I suppose that's indeed the same Iovara vs. Thaos argument.

 

I can understand a god wanting to push his people so that they fulfill their potential, but man, Eothas' methods are extreme. It's like tossing your kid in a lion's den. Sure, there's a risk that he may be killed but as long as you believe in that potential! 

 

Nobody ever said he's the god of goodness. He's the god of rebirth, hope, redemption and dawn. Makes perfect sense that he'd take action to kick off a new age and trust that people will make it work

 

Okay, fair enough. He's the god of light, not goodness. I guess he's being a **** according to his nature.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Heijoushin

[Guest]

The different between being a slave and being free? I dunno... Nobody seems to be complaining about being "enslaved" to the gods, though. Well, I suppose that's indeed the same Iovara vs. Thaos argument.

Most people who are raised to believe in deities never think to challenge those assumptions.

 

I can understand a god wanting to push his people so that they fulfill their potential, but man, Eothas' methods are extreme. It's like tossing your kid in a lion's den. Sure, there's a risk that he may be killed but as long as you believe in that potential!

I suspect breaking the Wheel is a larger problem for the gods than kith. Eothas knows that kith can rebuild the Wheel; he saw them do it the first time. And Josh has indicated that modern kith are technically more advanced at animancy than the Engwithans were (Engwithans were great at moving/transferring souls whereas modern animancers have a broader range of abilities). So I don’t think Eothas is that concerned about them rebuilding the Wheel so much as he’s curious to see what they do with it. My 2 cents

[Heijoushin]

Careful there, Achilles old fruit. You're at risk of sounding like an edgy atheist  

 

I'm really surprised Josh said such a thing. In fact, from anyone else, I would say it's absolute nonsense. The Engwithans built the gods and the cycle of life and death. What's the greatest achievement of "modern" animancers? Transferring souls into inanimate objects, maybe? And they're always portrayed as these eccentric oddballs stumbling around blindly in a new field. Based on what we've seen, I really can't see them being able to rebuild the wheel.

[Guest]

Careful there, Achilles old fruit. You're at risk of sounding like an edgy atheist

 

I'm really surprised Josh said such a thing. In fact, from anyone else, I would say it's absolute nonsense. The Engwithans built the gods and the cycle of life and death. What's the greatest achievement of "modern" animancers? Transferring souls into inanimate objects, maybe? And they're always portrayed as these eccentric oddballs stumbling around blindly in a new field. Based on what we've seen, I really can't see them being able to rebuild the wheel.

Transferring souls into inanimate objects is an example of something the Engwithans mastered. 

 

Modern animancers may seem like they are stumbling around in a new field, but that's because Thaos has been diligent about hitting the reset button every time a society gets too much knowledge. To them it *is* new. The other side of that coin is that they don't know what is or is not possible, so previously unmade discoveries would just seem like another advance.

 

One more thing to consider is the adage, "Necessity is the mother of invention". It's one thing to be incapable of a thing. It's another to be capable of a thing, but not necessarily know it because you've never had to think about it before.

[Tick]

Careful there, Achilles old fruit. You're at risk of sounding like an edgy atheist

 

I'm really surprised Josh said such a thing. In fact, from anyone else, I would say it's absolute nonsense. The Engwithans built the gods and the cycle of life and death. What's the greatest achievement of "modern" animancers? Transferring souls into inanimate objects, maybe? And they're always portrayed as these eccentric oddballs stumbling around blindly in a new field. Based on what we've seen, I really can't see them being able to rebuild the wheel.

(Sorry for any possible typos, on the phone)

 

The way animancy is portrayed is that it's a young but rapidly growing field - which matches other discoveries and technological booms in history - and I think the point that it's at in PoE2 is that it absolutely *could * rebuild the wheel, but could still fail. That's part of what makes breaking it scary (also because the broken wheel creates a giant power vacuum that the wrong people could take advantage of).

 

We haven't even seen animancy in a region that really actively values it - in PoE1, most people feared and resented it. And in PoE2, they're making legitimate prototypes for teleportation that can take you to the beyond. I think that shows serious potential.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Tick

[AeonsLegend]

I can’t disagree with you until you actually make an argument. What I have repeatedly said is that you’re confused about what the plot is. You’ve said nothing to disabuse me of this.

You're hilarious you know that. Do you even know what you're saying? I've made countless of arguments, but you choose to ignore them and when you do reply to me you pick out a single sentence of my post, pull it out of context and then reply to it. But go ahead. You go ahead and imagine you're right.

[Verde]

It's funny, Obsidian scarred itself with exposition dumps, but ironically, Eothos is the best opportunity to use them. Listening to a woke God explaining his plans in great detail is a lot different than every NPC spouting a novel.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Verde

[Guest]

 

I can’t disagree with you until you actually make an argument. What I have repeatedly said is that you’re confused about what the plot is. You’ve said nothing to disabuse me of this.

You're hilarious you know that. Do you even know what you're saying? I've made countless of arguments, but you choose to ignore them and when you do reply to me you pick out a single sentence of my post, pull it out of context and then reply to it. But go ahead. You go ahead and imagine you're right.

Argument: a series of premises leading to a conclusion.

 

Your posts are peppered with false premises, but you’ve refused to engage *the actual game* or provide justification for them when asked.

 

For instance: “They don’t even allow you to fail, you fail by default”. WTF does “fail” mean? “Fail” is only coherent within the context of an objective. *THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE TO STOP EOTHAS*. If you mean to communicate to us that you *really* wish there was one, then I promise you that we’ve heard you. But that’s not what Obsidian wanted to do in this game. We have lots of reasons to believe that they need this world state because they have plans for Part 3. You haven’t engaged this at all other than handwaving.

[Epixia]

Even though I have yet to finish it, I'm savoring PoE II like it was the last twinkie on earth, I do already know it's endings and have spoiled myself to the point that the end will not be a surprise. Maybe I can offer the perspective of a player who is in the middle of the game.

 

I can see and understand some of the reasons why there is such a dramatic difference in interpretation of the PC's effect on the story and their motivations. 

 

PoE II is a story that does not reveal what it thinks the players true motivation for following Eothas should be until at least 2/3s of the way through the game. Prior to that the player is frequently given the chance to weigh in on what their motivations for following him are.

 

"I'm following Eothas because he destroyed my keep and stole my soul."

 

"I'm following Eothas because he causes destruction wherever he goes and must be stopped."

 

"I'm following Eothas against my will because Berath will kill me if I don't."

 

"I'm following Eothas because he is my god / I love him / he is ultimately working for good."

 

"I'm following Eothas because I want to find out what he intends/what he is doing."

 

Out of all of those "reasons" to follow Eothas, according to the story and the author, the only valid ones are the last one or two.  All of the others either prove to be impossible or are resolved before the end. Ultimately, following Eothas does not have a direct personal motivation for all Watchers that lasts to the end of the game.

 

This has been bothering me ever since Ashen Maw and why I believe PoE I's story ultimately worked while Deadfire's doesn't.  In PoE I the thread that ultimately leads the Watcher to follow Thaos to the end is the awakening. Being awakened is a universal personal problem for any type of Watcher a person would want to create.  No one wants to become a raving lunatic.  No Watcher would be ok with losing their sanity. The awakening storyline / threat is not resolved until Thaos and the Hollowborn crisis are resolved. It is a personal motivation that lasts till the end of the game.

 

Now lets take Deadfire. The two most obvious universal and directly personal motivations to follow Eothas are that he has stolen your soul and that Berath is making you do it.  Beyond that, any other reason either comes across as arbitrary or niche by comparison. Only those two reasons are personal enough and universal enough to apply to all Watchers. They are either acting under threat or out of desperation or, as Deadfire's story seems to prefer, both.

 

However, the problem of the Watcher's stolen soul is resolved in Ashen Maw.  One of their major motivations is negated which leaves only Berath's chime. However, the problem with Berath's chime is that they never really take advantage of the true threat the chime can be. It's essentially a device that forces the player to observe the equivalent of boring executive meetings against their will. That isn't threatening for most people. It comes across as an indulgent way to make  the players interact with the gods. In fact, I'd argue the best use of the true threat of the chime is during the dock scene in Neketaka when the chime demonstrates it's true potential and threat to both the player and the Watcher.  When Berath can force the Watcher to reveal the souls of the dead whether they WANT to or NOT. 

 

Only during that single scene in the game , so far, has the true threat of Berath's chime (and it's potential as a way to drive the narrative revealed).  When it is shown to be capable of robbing the player/Watcher of their choice. 

 

Deadfire is a game that leads the player to believe that they can have a meaningful impact on the Eothas storyline when in reality they never were meant to and I believe that's the problem. They left too many players with the belief that they HAD a choice and the chance to genuinely affect the biggest threat in the game, the destruction of the wheel/Eothas, when in reality they never did. That was never an impression that should have been given and ultimately it was.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Epixia

[Guest]

Plot consists of exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, resolution.

 

In Deadfire:

• The exposition is everything up to meeting Queen Okekaza and learning that Eothas has been sighted at Hasango. The factions are introduced, the major players have been given some screen time, you've met most of your companions. How you came to be here has been established and you've been given objectives to resolve (i.e. "winning the game" has been defined).
• The rising action is the encounter with Eothas at Hasango. He tips his hand a little and teases you with a rendezvous at Ashen Maw if you want the whole story.
• The climax is Ashen Maw. The cat is now out of the bag: "I want to return the gods to our original purpose. And allow mortals to worship us - or ignore us - for what are, not what we pretend to be.". He's going to destroy the Wheel and he tells us exactly why he's doing it. At this point you get your soul back and you've discovered what Eothas is up to, but Berath still has a killswitch installed in your chest.
• Falling action is preparation for the trip to Ukaizo, either by beefing up your ship or securing aid from one of the factions.
• Resolution is the finale with Eothas. He removes the chime from your chest and frees you from Berath's control.

 

As for motivation, you're killed, brought back to life without your soul, and threatened with annihilation if you don't do the bidding of sentient machines. You want your soul back and you want to lift the threat imposed upon you. In order do to this, you have to chase down Eothas. People who are worried about anything other than this probably aren't spending much time contemplating what it would feel like to be in this situation. As one would might do in a roleplaying game.

 

 

 

 Deadfire is a game that leads the player to believe that they can have a meaningful impact on the Eothas storyline when in reality they never were meant to and I believe that's the problem.

You crafted a good post and I agree with much of what you said. This part right here does not follow from what came before it. Help me understand how the game leads the player to believe they can have a meaningful impact on the Eothas storyline. You are *reacting* to his actions at every encounter. You aren't told to stop him, nor does the game suggest that you can. So far as I can tell, this "belief" comes from nothing more than expectations that some players have created on their own.

[Tarlonniel]

They left too many players with the belief that they HAD a choice and the chance to genuinely affect the biggest threat in the game, the destruction of the wheel/Eothas, when in reality they never did. That was never an impression that should have been given and ultimately it was.

 

Which could've been fixed by doing what many folks - including some in this thread - have suggested and making the destruction take place off-screen, perhaps even before the game begins. There could still be a piece of your soul in the statue that must be retrieved, which in turn necessitates the journey to Ukaizo, but there'd be no need for Berath's heavy-handed machinations and no expectation of stopping what's already been accomplished. It's unlikely the writers themselves didn't think of that option; for some reason, they must have rejected it.

[Epixia]

The game sets up the Watcher as having an impact by virtue of forcing them to be in the situation after Ashen Maw. At that point the gods KNOW what Eothas is planning and what he intends to do. Why have the Watcher continue to be involved?  What, at that point, is the reasoning to continue to have them hound him if they have no way to influence the outcome outside of an author wanting the player to witness an event?  

 

It is implied by their continued involvement that they should be able to influence the outcome in a meaningful way.  As for in-game situations that feed this illusion, how many times do companions prop up the Watcher? How many times do they encourage their involvement? How many times do they get lectured about their "duty" to the world?

 

Aloth and Pallegina: Your power and influence require to you think of the world and to help it. It. Is. Your. Duty. Your choices matter.  Your presence matters. 

 

Eder: Eothas is carving a path of destruction and must be stopped. 

 

Maia is doing time in the brig so I can't comment on her. 

 

I'm still doing Takehu's quest, but it seems to be going in a direction of should he embrace his duty to his people or to himself.

 

Even if their conversations change from Eothas should be stopped  to can he be stopped, the conversations themselves still point towards the Watcher taking some form of action. So, I can understand how many would reach the end and feel they should have been able to stop him.

 

I don't know how to use the specific quote feature, so bear with me. 

 

"As for motivation, you're killed, brought back to life without your soul, and threatened with annihilation if you don't do the bidding of sentient machines. You want your soul back and you want to lift the threat imposed upon you. In order do to this, you have to chase down Eothas. People who are worried about anything other than this probably aren't spending much time contemplating what it would feel like to be in this situation. As one would might do in a roleplaying game." 

 

 

While I agree that the most passionate followers of games like this probably do put extra effort in trying to relate to their character's circumstances, I know I certainly do, I believe that the burden should rest more on the writers to evoke the necessary emotions and sense of urgency in the audience. If they are unable to accomplish that, then it speaks poorly of the writing / execution rather than of the audience and pre-conceived expectations.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Epixia

[Guest]

 

 

 The game sets up the Watcher as having an impact by virtue of forcing them to be in the situation after Ashen Maw. At that point the gods KNOW what Eothas is planning and what he intends to do. Why have the Watcher continue to be involved?  What, at that point, is the reasoning to continue to have them hound him if they have no way to influence the outcome outside of an author wanting the player to witness an event?

After the events at Ashen Maw, the gods meet with you. Some of them are pissed because they (*THE GODS!*) recognize that it's way too late to stop Eothas now. They recognize that you seem to have some sway over him and send you to Ukaizo to do what you can plant the seeds for what happens after.

 

This isn't an interpretation. This isn't an assumption. This isn't implied. It's the actual dialog the writers put into the game for us read and hopefully understand.

 

 

While I agree that the most passionate followers of games like this probably do put extra effort in trying to relate to their characters circumstances, I know I certainly do, I believe that the burden should rest more on the writers to evoke the necessary emotions and sense of urgency in the audience. If they are unable to accomplish that, then it speaks poorly of the writing / execution rather than of the audience and pre-conceived expectations.

*shrugs* and this may be one of those situations where we have to agree to disagree. To me, a heavy-handed writer is one that doesn't trust the audience to follow along. Again, there's a difference between art and entertainment and art *should* require some effort from the audience.

[Vitalis]

 

The game sets up the Watcher as having an impact by virtue of forcing them to be in the situation after Ashen Maw. At that point the gods KNOW what Eothas is planning and what he intends to do. Why have the Watcher continue to be involved? What, at that point, is the reasoning to continue to have them hound him if they have no way to influence the outcome outside of an author wanting the player to witness an event?

After the events at Ashen Maw, the gods meet with you. Some of them are pissed because they (*THE GODS!*) recognize that it's way too late to stop Eothas now. They recognize that you seem to have some sway over him and send you to Ukaizo to do what you can plant the seeds for what happens after.

 

This isn't an interpretation. This isn't an assumption. This isn't implied. It's the actual dialog the writers put into the game for us read and hopefully understand.

 

While I agree that the most passionate followers of games like this probably do put extra effort in trying to relate to their characters circumstances, I know I certainly do, I believe that the burden should rest more on the writers to evoke the necessary emotions and sense of urgency in the audience. If they are unable to accomplish that, then it speaks poorly of the writing / execution rather than of the audience and pre-conceived expectations.

*shrugs* and this may be one of those situations where we have to agree to disagree. To me, a heavy-handed writer is one that doesn't trust the audience to follow along. Again, there's a difference between art and entertainment and art *should* require some effort from the audience.

The problem is that the audience is used to heavy handed writing from video games, to books, to television, to even movies (thanks Disney)!

[Guest]

 

 

The game sets up the Watcher as having an impact by virtue of forcing them to be in the situation after Ashen Maw. At that point the gods KNOW what Eothas is planning and what he intends to do. Why have the Watcher continue to be involved? What, at that point, is the reasoning to continue to have them hound him if they have no way to influence the outcome outside of an author wanting the player to witness an event?

After the events at Ashen Maw, the gods meet with you. Some of them are pissed because they (*THE GODS!*) recognize that it's way too late to stop Eothas now. They recognize that you seem to have some sway over him and send you to Ukaizo to do what you can plant the seeds for what happens after.

 

This isn't an interpretation. This isn't an assumption. This isn't implied. It's the actual dialog the writers put into the game for us read and hopefully understand.

 

While I agree that the most passionate followers of games like this probably do put extra effort in trying to relate to their characters circumstances, I know I certainly do, I believe that the burden should rest more on the writers to evoke the necessary emotions and sense of urgency in the audience. If they are unable to accomplish that, then it speaks poorly of the writing / execution rather than of the audience and pre-conceived expectations.

*shrugs* and this may be one of those situations where we have to agree to disagree. To me, a heavy-handed writer is one that doesn't trust the audience to follow along. Again, there's a difference between art and entertainment and art *should* require some effort from the audience.

The problem is that the audience is used to heavy handed writing from video games, to books, to television, to even movies (thanks Disney)!

I’m sure that there is some percentage of players who came into this with no idea what to expect. However I have no sympathy for anyone who knowingly bought an “Obsidian” game expecting “color by numbers” writing.

[house2fly]

It's not like Deadfire is some masterpiece of subtlety. I do think things could have been improved a lot by making the player an active participant, so you're not just reacting to Eothas. After-the-fact story treatments are annoying, but what the hell, here's an idea:

 

Eothas survives Ashen Maw but his body is weakened and he's no longer sure he can survive the storms around Ukaizo. He tells you that once Ukaizo is found the storms can be turned off and he'll surface to break the Wheel. The gods do as they do now, tell you that you have to be the one to reach Ukaizo so you can talk to Eothas before he does his thing. You go to Ukaizo, stop the storms, Eothas follows behind. This would put Eothas on your schedule and gets rid of fhe friction between main quest and side quests (aka Why Am I Sailing Around When Eothas Is Going To Ukaizo Right Now). You can mod dialogue now I think, so I might try and change Eothas's dialogue around Ashen Maw to give the impression that's what's happening

[Guest]

It's not like Deadfire is some masterpiece of subtlety. I do think things could have been improved a lot by making the player an active participant, so you're not just reacting to Eothas. After-the-fact story treatments are annoying, but what the hell, here's an idea:

 

Eothas survives Ashen Maw but his body is weakened and he's no longer sure he can survive the storms around Ukaizo. He tells you that once Ukaizo is found the storms can be turned off and he'll surface to break the Wheel. The gods do as they do now, tell you that you have to be the one to reach Ukaizo so you can talk to Eothas before he does his thing. You go to Ukaizo, stop the storms, Eothas follows behind. This would put Eothas on your schedule and gets rid of fhe friction between main quest and side quests (aka Why Am I Sailing Around When Eothas Is Going To Ukaizo Right Now). You can mod dialogue now I think, so I might try and change Eothas's dialogue around Ashen Maw to give the impression that's what's happening

And now the Watcher has the option to not help Eothas? Because that’s a problem for their part 3 set up. The gods are going to encourage you to help Eothas? Why would they do this? Can the Watcher defy the gods and try to help Eothas anyway? The gods might not have been able to stop Eothas, but they can kill you with a thought.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Achilles

[house2fly]

Someone's going to get to Ukaizo eventually, so many people are on the brink of finding it that it's basically inevitable. Once they're there they'll turn the storms off and Eothas will come ashore completely unhindered. From the gods' perspective, the goal would be for you to be the one to reach Ukaizo so you can chat with Eothas before he breaks the Wheel.

Edited July 29, 2018 by house2fly

[Verde]

How can you guys defend the "Gods"? They are nothing more than caricatures. Their "powers" have never been remotely defined. Throw a moon. Crap on a ship. Blow up a Volcano. Oh ok, but you need me to follow Eothos while you do NOTHING.

 

The Gods were done much better in POE as we didn't see them and therefore much was left to the imagination. Much like modern day religion. Obsidian side stepped the most important question - What is a God? Instead we got - Which shady and amoral faction do you support?

Edited July 30, 2018 by Verde

[house2fly]

So you have two complaints: that their powers were not sufficiently defined, and that not enough was left to the imagination