Is the Beckoner still the worst Chanter subclass?

[Stardusk78]

I was thinking about trying it out but the penalties seem fairly harsh. Thoughts?

[Boeroer]

Why "still"? It used to be the most powerful one and now got nerfed (pretty harshly). If it's worthwhile compared to a Troubadour... I think it needs proper playtesting because the power of multiple summons is not easily determined by looking at the stats of the subclass alone.

[Gary1986]

I using a rogue/skald at the moment. Really enjoying it.

[Raven Darkholme]

Even now it's not the worst, Skald always was the worst, since if you want more phrases you always go Troubadour.

Beckoner even has a small advantage summons wise over the Troubadour, but is just worse overall, since the nerf.

(and weaker summons are not that much of a big deal as long as they live thru the generation of phrases for the next summon)

I feel like with Chanter overall being weaker than in PoE 1 since the removal of brilliant invo, a lot of builds will revolve around summons and I personally would most likely go beckoner, unless I realize my summons die super early (I kind of doubt that, even skeletons rarely get killed and 4 ogres just seem invinciblke to me, nerf or not.)

[robogiffo]

Why "still"? It used to be the most powerful one and now got nerfed (pretty harshly). If it's worthwhile compared to a Troubadour... I think it needs proper playtesting because the power of multiple summons is not easily determined by looking at the stats of the subclass alone.

 

I agree, at release Beckoner was pretty good.  At lvl 1 you could at least quickly summon a horde of mini skeletons at the start of every battle that would at least keep enemies at bay, while you picked them off at range.  The main complaint is that the summons all looked really funky since they were all pretty tiny. 

 

Now with the +1 cost to summons it is almost a Troubadour without the ability to quickly build up phrases, and losing the extra linger when your not.

Edited July 10, 2018 by robogiffo

[Boeroer]

I also don't agree on "Skald is/was worst". First of all he pays one phrase less for ALL offensive invocations and secondly: if you are planning to make a dps melee chanter anyway then it's good to take a Skald. Killers + high Accuracy = bonus phrases for more offensive invocations. That it's not a subclass for every build doesn't make it weak or bad in my opinion. I'm wondering if retaliation crits of any kind also lead to bonus phrases? Or crits on disengagement attacks (see Fighter with Overbearing Guard). Wizard/Skald with Spirit Lance does lead to a ton of bonus phrases by the way (last tested in beta3 though). Also Monk/Skald with Wahaī Pōraga - but that is only an assumption, didn't test that one.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

I also don't agree on "Skald is/was worst". First of all he pays one phrase less for ALL offensive invocations and secondly: if you are planning to make a dps melee chanter anyway then it's good to take a Skald. Killers + high Accuracy = bonus phrases for more offensive invocations. That it's not a subclass for every build doesn't make it weak or bad in my opinion. I'm wondering if retaliation crits of any kind also lead to bonus phrases? Or crits on disengagement attacks (see Fighter with Overbearing Guard). Wizard/Skald with Spirit Lance does lead to a ton of bonus phrases by the way (last tested in beta3 though). Also Monk/Skald with Wahaī Pōraga - but that is only an assumption, didn't test that one.

But one sub has to be worse and you only gave reasons why it's not terrible, which subclass do you think is worse?

 

 

Why "still"? It used to be the most powerful one and now got nerfed (pretty harshly). If it's worthwhile compared to a Troubadour... I think it needs proper playtesting because the power of multiple summons is not easily determined by looking at the stats of the subclass alone.

 

I agree, at release Beckoner was pretty good.  At lvl 1 you could at least quickly summon a horde of mini skeletons at the start of every battle that would at least keep enemies at bay, while you picked them off at range.  The main complaint is that the summons all looked really funky since they were all pretty tiny. 

 

Now with the +1 cost to summons it is almost a Troubadour without the ability to quickly build up phrases, and losing the extra linger when your not.

 

 

 

The +1 to cost is almost irrelevant, since you start with max phrases and just have to sustain the summons.

[arkane83]

One of my little gripes with skald is how cone attacks work. Fighting in melee range puts you right in the thick of your enemies. Cone attacks tend to hit you are fighting and who is behind them, often missing plenty of proximate targets. The ideal range for those cones always seems to be either ranged (no skald bonuses) or reach two hander (lower crit chance). A mid to short ranged troubadour using brisk seems to use those cone shaped offensive invocations about as often and much more effectively than a skald.

[Boeroer]

But one sub has to be worse

 

Eh? Why that? Is that an universal rule?

 

It may also be that all subs are rel. equal. Or that one subclass is good when you want to play like this and another when you want to play like that.

[dunehunter]

One of my little gripes with skald is how cone attacks work. Fighting in melee range puts you right in the thick of your enemies. Cone attacks tend to hit you are fighting and who is behind them, often missing plenty of proximate targets. The ideal range for those cones always seems to be either ranged (no skald bonuses) or reach two hander (lower crit chance). A mid to short ranged troubadour using brisk seems to use those cone shaped offensive invocations about as often and much more effectively than a skald.

That’s why u need a chanter/rogue to make full use of chanter’s cone spells. Since you can use escape to find the best spot for your cone blast/CC.

[Boeroer]

You could pick up WotEP - where weapon cone and invocation come match (and it's a reach weapon).

 

I think ranger is even better for getting crits and repositioning yourself to the perfect place for launching your invocation: Evasive Roll is great for that purpose (very cheap) while your accuracy in general will be higher (=more crits) due to several passives and you can use Accurate Woundig Shots a lot of times for even more crits.

[arkane83]

I think arguments can be made for no-sub, skald, and beckoner being "weakest". Troubador is way too strong compared to the other three options. 

 

IMHO Skald needs the most love. I would give them +1 pen on offensive invocations and/or a modal to change them from cone to caster-centered foe aoe

[Raven Darkholme]

 

But one sub has to be worse

Eh? Why that? Is that an universal rule?

 

It may also be that all subs are rel. equal. Or that one subclass is good when you want to play like this and another when you want to play like that.

 

I guess I worded that weirdly.

Two classes could be equal, but in my opinion Skald doesn't compete with Beckoner, but Troubadour and Troubadour is just much better in building phrases.

A Beckoner doesn't really need to build phrases faster than the summon duration lasts, once you get to ogre and higher it's almost guaranteed they won't die before you get your phrases back and even before it's quite unlikely all your summons die super quick, unless maybe you use phantom.

Skald seems more for casting offensive invocations and brisk recitation will be faster for the biggest part of the game, until maybe you can spam consumables with hit to crit or your acc is just much higher than enemy def, but generally i would say when the fights get real easy anyway, while the phrase regen speed of brisk recitation starts out as fast as it gets.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Raven Darkholme

[Boeroer]

Hm, but a Troubadour pays +1 for his invocations while a Skald -1 for offensive ones. So actually he pays -2 phrases compared to Troubadour. That means that the Troubadour needs more time for low-level invocations and less for high level invocations (only if he uses Brisk Recitation).

 

Plus the Skald can generate phrases with melee crits. Is this really worse? With a decent melee build one can do crits pretty often. My next apporach will really be to use WotEP to see if crits with the cone produce phrases.

 

Edit: fixed a brainfart.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[jazzthing]

Skald combined with Rogue, Fighter or Barbarian (all Crit a lot) is actually really good - mid game. Early game crits are rare (on PotD), so the Skald is more of a latebloomer. Then again, in my test my party killed so fast that I rarely used more then two invocations. For me every specialization has pros and cons and should be used with different goals and in different combinations. Only the bland chanter falls off a bit.