Too much experience / open world failure (end game spoiler)

[AeonsLegend]

Got your attention? So I'm a guy who tries to do as much of any sidequests as possible before advancing with the main plot. POE II has a new setup which I was not aware of. About 99% of the quests can be done before being halfway through the story. This way I ended up being level 20 well well before going to Hasongo. If I may make a suggestion to Obsidian. Please stop copying games like Fallout and Skyrim in an open world endeavour. Just open up side quests as you advance through the main story. A massive amount of side quests you can do from the get go takes away from any ugency from the main plot and takes away any means to scale with you and forces a scaling system to be in place in the first place. 

 

Please learn this lesson developers: a level scaling system is only used to counter a poor levelling system. Something that is always present in open world environment to keep things challenging. A levelling system where your character becomes multiple times as strong than they started out makes this necessary. Again a scaling system counters a poor levelling system. Either build a game world that makes this unnecessary or make a levelling system that makes scaling unnecessary. This is all very easy to do. Thing is, people want to be stronger when they improve their skills/level, not have enemies simply make them feel weak by levelling up with them. Challenging combat can be implemented in other ways than simply increasing stats. 

 

Also level scaling didn't actually work at all. I played on hard difficulty with the scaling set to follow the critical path. The final boss and encounter in Ukaizo had enemies with 40-ish deflection and defenses. All my chars had over 100 accuracy, defenses without any buffs. The final boss wasn't even able to take Aloth with no protection spells whatsoever below 50% health.

 

I found the Vampire boss battle in the south east of the map far more challenging than anything I fought on the critical path.

 

Also, Minoletta's Missile Salvo is far to overpowered. This ability... Lol.

 

Loved the game though.

[Phyriel]

I don't even know what to address here. You made title about getting too much xp then mixed up open world in this followed by blaming scaling just to finish it off with mentioning op abilities. I think this should go to suggestion sub forum as this post teaches no lessons, it just voices your preferences. 

[AeonsLegend]

You're confused by the title or the fact that I addressed more than 1 point in the topic itself? Also I don't blame anyone. I'm offering critique.

[Phyriel]

I'm not confused, i'm offering critique and/or pointing your into right subforum directions. 

[Wormerine]

[curious] Did you play solo? I didn't reach 20th level until I was done with sidequests and cleaning up the remaining fog, with Story Content from Ashen Maw up left to do (faction quests were completed and ready for the final choice). 

[AeonsLegend]

@Phyriel. Wow, you intend to counter my topic by saying: "that's just your opinion" and then dodging my question to improve the topic.

 

But perhaps you can point me to the suggestion subforum because I can't seem to find one in the Deadfire forums.

 

 

@Wormerine, No I played with a full complement of party members. I was level 20 before visiting Hasongo and still had sidequests left to complete.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[Phyriel]

 

@Phyriel. Wow, you intend to counter my topic by saying: "that's just your opinion" and then dodging my question to improve the topic.

 

But perhaps you can point me to the suggestion subforum because I can't seem to find one in the Deadfire forums.

 

 

@Wormerine, No I played with a full complement of party members. I was level 20 before visiting Hasongo and still had sidequests left to complete.

 

 

I think your tale falls into Deadfire Stories category. https://forums.obsidian.net/forum/124-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-stories-spoiler-warning/ You're welcome. 

[gkathellar]

Yeah, just like in PoE 1.

 

Is this a surprise?

[dunehunter]

I played with 5 members in my team and I barely have exp to go lvl 20 in the end of the game. I didn't do bounty btw, they gives **** tons of exp.

[Boeroer]

I have to agree: in my first playthrough I totally got lost because of too many sidequests paired with the open world approach. I tend to lose motivation (to do all the content) if a game is like that. There is a feeling like "who cares what I'm doing anyway?". 

[wih]

Please learn this lesson developers: a level scaling system is only used to counter a poor levelling system. Something that is always present in open world environment to keep things challenging. A levelling system where your character becomes multiple times as strong than they started out makes this necessary. Again a scaling system counters a poor levelling system. Either build a game world that makes this unnecessary or make a levelling system that makes scaling unnecessary. This is all very easy to do. 

 

 

Please elaborate. What could they do instead? Usually I am extremely doubtful when I hear someone claims something is very easy to do.

[AeonsLegend]

 

Please learn this lesson developers: a level scaling system is only used to counter a poor levelling system. Something that is always present in open world environment to keep things challenging. A levelling system where your character becomes multiple times as strong than they started out makes this necessary. Again a scaling system counters a poor levelling system. Either build a game world that makes this unnecessary or make a levelling system that makes scaling unnecessary. This is all very easy to do. 

 

 

Please elaborate. What could they do instead? Usually I am extremely doubtful when I hear someone claims something is very easy to do.

 

Alright. First off you need to have a system that focusses on abilities rather than stats. Stats are what always makes you > enemy without requiring skill. This is bad. You want to become stronger? Sure give more hp, more strength and such. But adhere to the 20-50% rule (depeding on game type). A single person doesn't become 10-100000x stronger as most RPGs use. To counter this (JRPGs mostly) games use a lineair game design so enemies are scaling with progression rather than your level so you can still overpower them if you wish. Open world can't handle that because you can go anywhere you want. So devs create a level scaling system or fixed level points in the game to either force you to take a select path or allow you to wander anywhere you go without feeling really strong. The thing is, why level up at all then?

 

The point is, focus on abilties and make those abiltiies more efficient and focus as little as possible on stats. This works from tactical RPG's to action styled RPGs. It is the only way to prevent the necessity of level scaling and to prevent you from stomping the enemy.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[dunehunter]

I have to agree: in my first playthrough I totally got lost because of too many sidequests paired with the open world approach. I tend to lose motivation (to do all the content) if a game is like that. There is a feeling like "who cares what I'm doing anyway?". 

 

Well the chapter 2 of Baldur's Gate 2 is exactly the same situation, your dear Imoen is taken to spellhold while u can adventure around doing sidequests. But nobody complain it in bg2?

[AeonsLegend]

 

I have to agree: in my first playthrough I totally got lost because of too many sidequests paired with the open world approach. I tend to lose motivation (to do all the content) if a game is like that. There is a feeling like "who cares what I'm doing anyway?". 

 

Well the chapter 2 of Baldur's Gate 2 is exactly the same situation, your dear Imoen is taken to spellhold while u can adventure around doing sidequests. But nobody complain it in bg2?

 

Hm, i don't really recall exactly how it handled the quests there, but I think BG didn't have a quest log as we have come to expect from games nowadays. It just had a journal of what you did and found. So it is not that you adventure away without complaint, it is that you don't know how to go to spellhold and one of the quests you do will lead you there. It's not pointed on a map with a flag and instructions on how to do it. As far as I know anyway. Good old days.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[wih]

 

 

Please learn this lesson developers: a level scaling system is only used to counter a poor levelling system. Something that is always present in open world environment to keep things challenging. A levelling system where your character becomes multiple times as strong than they started out makes this necessary. Again a scaling system counters a poor levelling system. Either build a game world that makes this unnecessary or make a levelling system that makes scaling unnecessary. This is all very easy to do. 

 

 

Please elaborate. What could they do instead? Usually I am extremely doubtful when I hear someone claims something is very easy to do.

 

Alright. First off you need to have a system that focusses on abilities rather than stats. Stats are what always makes you > enemy without requiring skill. This is bad. You want to become stronger? Sure give more hp, more strength and such. But adhere to the 20-50% rule (depeding on game type). A single person doesn't become 10-100000x stronger as most RPGs use. To counter this (JRPGs mostly) games use a lineair game design so enemies are scaling with progression rather than your level so you can still overpower them if you wish. Open world can't handle that because you can go anywhere you want. So devs create a level scaling system or fixed level points in the game to either force you to take a select path or allow you to wander anywhere you go without feeling really strong. The thing is, why level up at all then?

 

The point is, focus on abilties and make those abiltiies more efficient and focus as little as possible on stats. This works from tactical RPG's to action styled RPGs. It is the only way to prevent the necessity of level scaling and to prevent you from stomping the enemy.

 

 

Hopefully we will see such systems. I would like to play something like that. Are there any such CRPGs already?

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

 

Please learn this lesson developers: a level scaling system is only used to counter a poor levelling system. Something that is always present in open world environment to keep things challenging. A levelling system where your character becomes multiple times as strong than they started out makes this necessary. Again a scaling system counters a poor levelling system. Either build a game world that makes this unnecessary or make a levelling system that makes scaling unnecessary. This is all very easy to do. 

 

 

Please elaborate. What could they do instead? Usually I am extremely doubtful when I hear someone claims something is very easy to do.

 

Alright. First off you need to have a system that focusses on abilities rather than stats. Stats are what always makes you > enemy without requiring skill. This is bad. You want to become stronger? Sure give more hp, more strength and such. But adhere to the 20-50% rule (depeding on game type). A single person doesn't become 10-100000x stronger as most RPGs use. To counter this (JRPGs mostly) games use a lineair game design so enemies are scaling with progression rather than your level so you can still overpower them if you wish. Open world can't handle that because you can go anywhere you want. So devs create a level scaling system or fixed level points in the game to either force you to take a select path or allow you to wander anywhere you go without feeling really strong. The thing is, why level up at all then?

 

The point is, focus on abilties and make those abiltiies more efficient and focus as little as possible on stats. This works from tactical RPG's to action styled RPGs. It is the only way to prevent the necessity of level scaling and to prevent you from stomping the enemy.

 

 

Hopefully we will see such systems. I would like to play something like that. Are there any such CRPGs already?

 

Not very many. I think Deus Ex does a good job. The Witcher comes to mind as well.

 

Any game that doesn't suffer from scaling issues either uses a lineair approach to progression (Classic Final Fantasy) or uses fixed level points to force somewhat lineair progression (Baldur's Gate). Any other open world RPG game does very poorly in both story delivery and level scaling. It's a well known issue.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[Voltron]

[curious] Did you play solo? I didn't reach 20th level until I was done with sidequests and cleaning up the remaining fog, with Story Content from Ashen Maw up left to do (faction quests were completed and ready for the final choice). 

 

I second that. I did like 95% of side quests probably, discovered full world fog, cleaned every Island/dungeon etc to get level 20. What was left for me was Ashen Maw and whatever after. That was on my solo runs. I didn't do many bouties as I didn't find them that interesting, but still.

 

I have to say game does it job quite well. You have to almost clean whole game world to get that 20 level and there is not much left for you to do to enjoy that power which is basicely every RPG ever created. Once on max level- you have not a lot of left to feel your power. Same as in paper RPGs, everyone want to get to that max level and be strong and then usually after couple of more seession- everybody want to start new characters as there is not much left to do with max level heroes who are basicelly a Gods in most RPG settings.

 

I have to say- if you have that- you kind of hate RPG-recipe.

 

Usually you have DLCs to let you enjoy that max power later.

 

How much game was left in Morrowind or BG2 when you got max level? Only Expansions after that let you go with your maxed Char and have challange again.

 

Imo in terms of XP- POE2 does very good job.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Voltron

[AeonsLegend]

 

[curious] Did you play solo? I didn't reach 20th level until I was done with sidequests and cleaning up the remaining fog, with Story Content from Ashen Maw up left to do (faction quests were completed and ready for the final choice). 

 

I second that. I did like 95% of side quests probably, discovered full world fog, cleaned every Island/dungeon etc to get level 20. What was left for me was Ashen Maw and whatever after. That was on my solo runs. I didn't do many bouties as I didn't find them that interesting, but still.

 

I have to say game does it job quite well. You have to almost clean whole game world to get that 20 level and there is not much left for you to do to enjoy that power which is basicely every RPG ever created. Once on max level- you have not a lot of left to feel your power. Same as in paper RPGs, everyone want to get to that max level and be strong and then usually after couple of more seession- everybody want to start new characters as there is not much left to do with max level heroes who are basicelly a Gods in most RPG settings.

 

I have to say- if you have that- you kind of hate RPG-recipe.

 

Usually you have DLCs to let you enjoy that max power later.

 

How much game was left in Morrowind or BG2 when you got max level? Only Expansions after that let you go with your maxed Char and have challange again.

 

Imo in terms of XP- POE2 does very good job.

 

The only thing for me it doesn't do right is control when this XP comes available. I did do all the bounties I could find. They give a lot of XP. When I was at level 19 I was wondering if I could get to level 30 or even 40 because I only did like 3 main quests. When I hit level 20 during side quests before even glancing at the main quest and learned this was the max level I got kind of disappointed. And level scaling didn't seem to help. The main quest was riddled with enemies with stats in 40-50 range. Fully self buffed, my PC had like 135 Deflection without even using a shield.

[Phyriel]

I think poe 2 was designed to give you tons of xp from quests so you can actually start RPGing the game and choosing what quests to make and which to skip. You're not playing mercenary, pirate, scumbag char? Skip bounties or just hunt those "evil doers" if you're some paladin, priest type. You're playing bad guy? Stop helping Huanas and feeding poor Roparu. Think about your playthrough like you used to in classic rpg paper games instead grinding every content that is thrown into your quest log. You run into issues and disappointment because you removed rpg aspect from rpg game. I get it that this came as a surprise as Poe1 was different in that regard as you pretty much had to grind it all / most of it to reach milestones that allowed you to hit on some harder bounties, dragons etc (talking about solo play). In party both those games are trivial af from the get go (although u still needed to hit some level range to attempt dragons etc, I haven't seen anybody killing alpine dragon on potd even with full pt at level 7 or so) 

 

Poe2 comes giving you a choice, its not a completionist game anymore I think. Although maybe game should take care of "blocking" your paths if you chose specific routes early. Obviously everyone want to see full content with their first playthrough and as it stands if you clear every quest and bounty as you go you become over leveled pretty early. I don't want to see poe 2 turn into poe 1 in that regard, I like being able to skip quests that don't fit my char theme but its a design promoting replayability, it certainly sucks in first playthrough when you don't know yet if grinding quests will put you in that "game became trivial and I just left Nekataka for the first time" situation. 

[AeonsLegend]

I think poe 2 was designed to give you tons of xp from quests so you can actually start RPGing the game and choosing what quests to make and which to skip. You're not playing mercenary, pirate, scumbag char? Skip bounties or just hunt those "evil doers" if you're some paladin, priest type. You're playing bad guy? Stop helping Huanas and feeding poor Roparu. Think about your playthrough like you used to in classic rpg paper games instead grinding every content that is thrown into your quest log. You run into issues and disappointment because you removed rpg aspect from rpg game. I get it that this came as a surprise as Poe1 was different in that regard as you pretty much had to grind it all / most of it to reach milestones that allowed you to hit on some harder bounties, dragons etc (talking about solo play). In party both those games are trivial af from the get go (although u still needed to hit some level range to attempt dragons etc, I haven't seen anybody killing alpine dragon on potd even with full pt at level 7 or so) 

 

Poe2 comes giving you a choice, its not a completionist game anymore I think. Although maybe game should take care of "blocking" your paths if you chose specific routes early. Obviously everyone want to see full content with their first playthrough and as it stands if you clear every quest and bounty as you go you become over leveled pretty early. I don't want to see poe 2 turn into poe 1 in that regard, I like being able to skip quests that don't fit my char theme but its a design promoting replayability, it certainly sucks in first playthrough when you don't know yet if grinding quests will put you in that "game became trivial and I just left Nekataka for the first time" situation. 

I see, but still if there is a quest I can pick up and it doesn't sit well with the choices I make (RP wise) then I should be able to RP it in a way that does sit well with me. There are quests that do that and allow you to switch alignment/side. The pirates for instance you get to choose Furrante or Aelys and the Huana you get to poison or assist.

 

My Watcher was the helpful kind so I wanted to assist everyone who had a good reason to be assisted. So as long as it didn't involve murder/slaving I was ok with it. You can complete a lot of quests that way. And bounties. Well those aren't murder if they attack you first, or if they were bad people that needed to be dealt with.

 

I RP with what I get, not choose what to pick up because I know beforehand that it doesn't belong in my selection of quests, that doesn't really do it for me.