In Defense of the Story

[Karkarov]

Am I really the only person who doesn't have a problem with the story, at all? It's primarily a story of the factions fighting over Deadfire with the equivalent of the industrial revolution raging in the background and a hugeass naked god destabilizing the fragile balance of power that existed in the region.

It's not that different from Fallout: New Vegas, hailed as the greatest RPG since sliced bread was invented.

No it is very different.  Not because of the factions, but because the factions in this game have no agency on the main plot.  The "world itself" part of the game is great.  The faction war is great.  The "mainline quest" part of the game, is not.  It is fairly strong through Port Maje, but after that?  You just go to place X, deal with Eothas fallout, go to place Y, deal with more Eothas fallout, go to place W and deal with Eothas fallout once last time.  That is an extremely short main quest. 

 

All that aside there are a few key major weaknesses of the main questline.

 

Problem one, what factions? 

 

You can actually fully beat the game and only visit Neketaka one time, and you really only need to visit the palace (forced), and Queen's Berth.  You never have to visit Dunnage, Fort Deadlight, Tikiwara, Sayongo, Crookspur, or even the other districts of Neketaka.  The factions are completely disconnected from the main plot except for the absolute end bit, which you can ignore by simply having the right ship upgrades.  That isn't really the same in Fallout New Vegas where the conflict between the factions IS the main plot.

 

Problem two, what do you mean I need to read this book on metaphysics? 

 

The fact that there is no satisfying conflict at the end doesn't help either.  Beating up a golem dragon boss isn't exciting when there is no agency to the fight.  They are just a security guard doing their job and you just have to get past them.  The conflict of this story is also purely theoretical, which means most players are not going to get it, or will be bored by it.  Most people don't think actual philosophy and theoretical concepts of reincarnation/space time are interesting things to talk about.  That is literally what the main plot is though, the theoretical conflict of what happens when you break the wheel.  It is all in your head, or something academics will argue in a classroom.  You don't solve it with a sword or a fireball spell, and the story isn't personal to you as a player or your character so it falls flat.  Simple logic even kills it, because if the wheel did not exist until after the engwithans, than by definition the world will continue without it otherwise how did the engwithans come to be in the first place?

 

Problem three, where's the beef? 

 

This is an RPG, where is my Irenicus, Sephiroth, Kefka, Alduin,Thaos, Sarevok, Wild Hunt, hell gimme anybody?  There is no villain in this plot, because Eothas never tries to stop you, because he knows you can't stop him.  That simple fact kills all conflict in the main story, especially because you know you can't stop him from pretty early on.  The story of The Watchmen graphic novel works because Dr. Manhattan, the unstoppable god, is being labelled as the villain (in the movie at least), but he isn't actually the villain.  Even though Veidt has won before the heroes show up, they don't know that, so there is still a sense of purpose to the final conflict.  In Deadfire Dr. Manhattan is the bad guy, and you know well in advance he is going to win.  It is like they wanted to do the plot of Watchmen, but just made it worse.  Even Planescape: Torment (a game I loathe) that is also a purely sort of theoretical conflict at least still has a clear end game enemy you can have some kind of conflict with, even if it is just yourself.

 

They just need to get away from the weird ass gods and soul buggery and try to tell a more traditional story that is about the actual player/normal world they live in for the next Eora game.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Karkarov

[drael6464]

 

 

Then tell me where we can nudge things in the right direction, excluding the final decision of who you give the macguffin.

 

I am btw not talking about changing the course of giants (be it Eothas or any of the 4 major factions), but even decisions at a very small scale are much too sparse.

My favorite example is the plucked fruit quest (because I know it from backer beta and always had hoped it would be more fleshed out in the full game). The only thing you can decide is which of two guys gets killed - the well-meaning thief or the innocent ****. But why can't we change something fundamental in the small and isolated worldspace of this village? Why can't we either -convince the village elders that planting the koiki fruit would be smart, damn tradtions; or -return the stolen koiki but give more of the stuff to the thief so he can plant it secretly. Instead we just let one guy die and the food shortage continues. 

 

The only quest that kind of works like this is finding a source of food for the gullet.

 

 

I wiped out the neketa palace and sent the empress/whateverhernameis into hiding, which trigger a plot ending where her influence was as a mere figurehead, that combined with my support of the vallian trading company to produce a highly progress focused, anti-traditional society. A good ending, and not an obvious one. That was more than just choosing a faction, just as an example.

 

 

Although you are right, the main ending is primarily faction choice. It does kind of "feel" like more than that as you play through the quests tho and their are subendings, like for the gullet, or the fampyrs.  It is nice when you have multiple choices though, as with the gullet, and in some cases you don't have many. 

 

Not an obvious one? Isn't it a default VTC ending?

And most non-pirate endings are good, you just don't know about that when making choices.

 

 

Well killing the whole palace, and exiling the queen isn't a default thing. I got it by selecting the not so obvious "yes, I blew up the deadfire trading company" option after working for the vallian trading company, because I was in a what the heck mood when it came up. Still made me do a little hmm, should I first. Immediate result was the whole palace attacking me. I also freed the dragon. Basically went out of my way to screw the huana. 

 

You could complete the VTC without exiling the queen or killing off the palace. If the queen ends up as the figurehead anyway, that would be disappointing, and not entirely make sense. AFAIK that was influenced by me exiling her, but I haven't played enough to know that for sure. 

[wRAR]

But "killing the whole palace, and exiling the queen" isn't required.

 

If the queen ends up as the figurehead anyway, that would be disappointing, and not entirely make sense. 

That's what the wiki says.

That's also what ingame persons say about the Queen vs the trading companies.

[drael6464]

But "killing the whole palace, and exiling the queen" isn't required.

 

If the queen ends up as the figurehead anyway, that would be disappointing, and not entirely make sense. 

That's what the wiki says.

That's also what ingame persons say about the Queen vs the trading companies.

 

How does the queen end up a figurehead then? 

[wRAR]

So did you hear what people say in the game? The Queen is powerless against trade companies, especially if you don't do her quests.

And if you do, you kill her on Ukaizo.

[drael6464]

So did you hear what people say in the game? The Queen is powerless against trade companies, especially if you don't do her quests.

And if you do, you kill her on Ukaizo.

 

Oh. She didn't show up for me, because I'd already exiled her. I got the pirates. 

 

If you didn't kill her, she still has all the huana, her guards across the city, and her watershapers, so it'd be hard to buy that she was powerless. 

[Khagmas]

To better understand the actions of Eotas - you need a really great adventure in Ukaizo, not this 5-minutes walk.


Why is Ukaizo so small? It could its be a really great ancient city. Watcher traveling on Ukaizo which the would receive answers to questions why the Wheel should be broken. History of ancients inhabitants of Eora before Wheel from Gods-Engwithans. A colorful description of the Ascension of the Gods on the 'Throne of Adra'. The rivers of blood, whatever. If Eothas really does hate Gods, then it is necessary to show dread story, how Engwithans came to rise power and governance of Eora.

 

The problem is that we can not discuss this for this part of the story simply does not exist. What here should be?


End of game really needs extension, at least in order to justify Eotas in solving the destroy Wheel and show the normal order of things: existence of life before time of the Wheel.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Khagmas

[drael6464]

To better understand the actions of Eotas - you need a really great adventure in Ukaizo, not this 5-minutes walk.

 

 

Why is Ukaizo so small? It could its be a really great ancient city. Watcher traveling on Ukaizo which the would receive answers to questions why the Wheel should be broken. History of ancients inhabitants of Eora before Wheel from Gods-Engwithans. A colorful description of the Ascension of the Gods on the 'Throne of Adra'. The rivers of blood, whatever. If Eothas really does hate Gods, then it is necessary to show dread story, how Engwithans came to rise power and governance of Eora.

 

 

The problem is that we can not discuss this for this part of the story simply does not exist. What here should be?

 

 

End of game really needs extension, at least in order to justify Eotas in solving the destroy Wheel and show the normal order of things: existence of life before time of the Wheel.

 

Yeah. This is where they could have had a small dungeon with the sort of technical detail about how the wheel was made, what existed before it etc.

[JiggleFloyd]

more appeasement for bad story design...You know, you can criticize a game for one thing and still love the game, they aren't mutually exclusive. The developers and designers need criticism so they can get better. If they can't take criticism then they're in the wrong business. Appeasing them and making excuses for them won't do anything to fix the problem and may actually make it worse.

 

Gaming companies need to understand that customers are not to be taken for granted. I have seen so many once great gaming franchises turn into crap because they don't listen to their audience; they instead listen to only those who never criticize them and even blame their customers instead of themselves.

 

This story thing is actually quite minor compared to the massive amount of bugs that they released the game with. A lot of people are frustrated and let down. I'm not one of them (other than the story) but I can empathize.

Edited June 1, 2018 by JiggleFloyd

[jf8350143]

I feel like this game was supposed to play like Elder Scroll or Fallout series. You get a major story, but stopped doing that the moment you get the chance to travel freely.

[Tagaziel]

No it is very different.  Not because of the factions, but because the factions in this game have no agency on the main plot.  The "world itself" part of the game is great.  The faction war is great.

But the faction war IS part of the main plot. You can choose to ignore it, yes, but acting like Eothas' actions have no bearing on the actions of the VTC/RDC/Huana/Principi is ignoring the story entirely.

 

I mean, what is it with the insistence that the player be railroaded into dealing with the factions? Sure, you can ignore them and greatly shorten the main story, the same way you can make a beeline for Navarro, then San Francisco, pop some Psycho and wind up at the Enclave. Or go to Necropolis, then Cathedral/Mariposa and end the game.

 

Non-linearity does not make the game bad. There's plenty of criticism to be made, but this is not one of them.

 

The fact that there is no satisfying conflict at the end doesn't help either.  Beating up a golem dragon boss isn't exciting when there is no agency to the fight.  They are just a security guard doing their job and you just have to get past them.  The conflict of this story is also purely theoretical, which means most players are not going to get it, or will be bored by it.  Most people don't think actual philosophy and theoretical concepts of reincarnation/space time are interesting things to talk about.  That is literally what the main plot is though, the theoretical conflict of what happens when you break the wheel.  It is all in your head, or something academics will argue in a classroom.  You don't solve it with a sword or a fireball spell, and the story isn't personal to you as a player or your character so it falls flat.  Simple logic even kills it, because if the wheel did not exist until after the engwithans, than by definition the world will continue without it otherwise how did the engwithans come to be in the first place?

You lost me at "most players". It's a crutch, and a flimsy one to boot.

 

Also, the Wheel predates the Engwithans (vide Od Nua and Iovara). Seizing control of a natural process =! being the natural process. Think of it as a hydroelectric dam.

 

There is no villain in this plot

So? This is bad?

[Guest]

 

There is no villain in this plot

So? This is bad?

 

I thought it was refreshing that Deadfire didn't lean on a villain. We have more than enough moral ambiguity within the faction sub-plots to keep us busy.

[Palas]

Hmm.. i wonder... maybe the game was desgned to go to ashen maw quickly, because after that the factionleaders tells you, that u would need help to get to Ukaizo and u can't stay for u alone anymore.

 

Making then all the faction quest makes much more sense...

 

But i do most of the sidequest before ashen maw (i had the feeling it would be a point of no return) - and i think most people did it that way. Maybe the game feels more rewarding if you go quickly to ashen maw first?

[Casper]

Hmm.. i wonder... maybe the game was desgned to go to ashen maw quickly, because after that the factionleaders tells you, that u would need help to get to Ukaizo and u can't stay for u alone anymore.

 

Making then all the faction quest makes much more sense...

 

But i do most of the sidequest before ashen maw (i had the feeling it would be a point of no return) - and i think most people did it that way. Maybe the game feels more rewarding if you go quickly to ashen maw first?

my first playthrough i saw those magranite longships (iirc, i ran into one on eder's personal quest) and thought to myself... i'm going to make sure i'm fully armed, equipped, and crewed before i even think about going back in that direction.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Casper

[Karkarov]

 

No it is very different.  Not because of the factions, but because the factions in this game have no agency on the main plot.  The "world itself" part of the game is great.  The faction war is great.

Non-linearity does not make the game bad. There's plenty of criticism to be made, but this is not one of them.

 

The fact that there is no satisfying conflict at the end doesn't help either. 

You lost me at "most players". It's a crutch, and a flimsy one to boot.

 

There is no villain in this plot

So? This is bad?

Okay so point by point.

 

1: Like many on the internet you are missing the point.  I am not saying the game is bad.  I am not saying the factions suck.  I am not saying the non linearity is bad. 

 

I AM saying you can ignore the factions entirely, and beat the game without ever interacting with them, except for one forced meeting after Magran's Teeth.  I understand it sucks not being able to counter that statement, because it's a fact, but if you are going to reply you should reply to the statement made.  Not a preferred alternative statement that never happened.

 

2: ..... Did you just say having conflict in a story is a crutch?

 

Tell you what, write an isometric RPG about going to work for 1 month.  During the month it is normal work, no terrorists show up, no shootings, no fire alarms go off, your significant other does not have a fight with you, no one in your family dies.  You just do your normal every day work for one month, then the game ends.  Unless your job is being a detective, or a high powered lawyer working for the mob, or a corrupt highly ranged government official, your game is probably going to be beyond boring.  But conflict is a crutch right?

 

3: Yes, having no antagonist in your plot is bad.  REALLY REALLY BAD.  When a story has no conflict, and no antagonist or villain, it isn't particularly fun to play, read, or watch.  Imagine if Baldur's Gate 2 didn't have Irenicus in it.  What would you be doing all game?  Just random dungeon spelunking to get richer than you already are?  I am sure that would have been way better than the plot with a decent villain we got instead.

 

Classical story structure exists for a reason, because it works.

 

Meanwhile Deadfire had plenty of conflict, and even some minor antagonists, they were just both absent from the main plot which is why the main plot sort of sucks.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Karkarov

[Tarlonniel]

As far as I'm concerned, Eothas is the villain. But you can't stop him or bring him to justice because he's a god in a huge adra statue and the Watcher is just some random kith who sees dead people.

[Casper]

to me at times it felt like the gods were the antagonists in the game. for they seemed to enjoy antagonizing my character. ok, horrible joke... half joke. 

[Karkarov]

As far as I'm concerned, Eothas is the villain. But you can't stop him or bring him to justice because he's a god in a huge adra statue and the Watcher is just some random kith who sees dead people.

This could be true, if he ever did anything to actually hinder you.  Yes, he almost kills you in the opening, but he didn't really "mean to".  Later points in the plot he could easily just leave you in your situation and you would die, but instead he actively saves you.  Not because he wants to kill you later, or have a haha I still win moment, but because he genuinely wanted to save your life.

 

That isn't the behavior of an antagonist.

[Slotharingia]

I think they were trying to do something original. Eothas is portrayed in a way that makes it hard to dislike him. He's the good guy who has to do bad stuff to do good. Having said that, imo the game lacks in explaining HOW what he's doing is good beyond that he says so. He could be as much of a cackling loon as the next bad guy, just better at it. Perhaps he was also inspired by DAI Solas.

[Tarlonniel]

Note that I didn't call him an antagonist. I called him a villain.

[Karkarov]

Note that I didn't call him an antagonist. I called him a villain.

He isn't that either.  The Villain doesn't want the main character to live, the villain doesn't sacrifice their life to usher in a new era of human ingenuity. 

 

Look at the anime (I know anime, I apologize) Code Geas.  To the entire world the main character is the Villain, but as the viewer you know his actual motivations and intentions.  So you know he isn't actually a bad guy.  The problem with Eothas is we don't have the view of the uneducated outsider, we have the view of the Watcher who Eothas is happy to explain his motivations to.  So he may be a bit misguided, but just like Veidt in Watchmen, he is not a villain, he is just doing what has to be done to ensure the survival of kith.

[Tarlonniel]

Eothas is as much as villain as Thaos was a villain. They both do evil things in order to further their goals. You're free to agree with them that doing those evil things was worth it for whatever reason, but they're still villains in my eyes.

[Karkarov]

Eothas is as much as villain as Thaos was a villain. They both do evil things in order to further their goals. You're free to agree with them that doing those evil things was worth it for whatever reason, but they're still villains in my eyes.

This goes back to a set of posts from Eternity 1, primarily the topic being what is the difference between Thaos and Iovara.

 

Yes, on paper, they are similar.  Both are willing to sacrifice to achieve ends that they believe are in the interests of the greater good.  The reason though that Thaos is a villain, and Eothas is not (Iovara too for that matter), is in the motivation and execution.

 

Thaos wants to keep people stupid and hide the truth, because to pull a Jack Nichelson, he thinks they can't handle the truth.  To a lesser extent he also wants to put Woedica back in a place of total power over the other gods.  Considering what we know of Woedica, that would probably be a very bad thing.  Eothas (and Iovara) on the other hand want to reveal the truth, he isn't sure people can handle the truth, but he earnestly believes they deserve the chance to try. 

 

So by definition Eothas's goal (and Iovara's) is a little less iffy. 

 

There are also three key differences in execution of their goals.

• Eothas tries to spare/save life where he can, and he has no interest in killing anyone he doesn't need to.  Bear in mind, he isn't the one that causes the volcano eruption killing all that remained of the giants, that was Magran.  Thaos was more than happy to up the body count and didn't care if he had to kill a few extra, like the Watcher for example. 

 

• Eothas had a clear goal with a definite end point, so he would only need to hurt people to a certain point then could stop, so he could minimize the damage.  Thaos's goal by definition is never ending, so he would continue hurting the people he hurts into eternity if he got his way.    

 

• Lastly, the most critical....    Eothas was willing to kill himself to achieve his goals, making the ultimate sacrifice to do what he thought was right.  Thaos shows no signs at all of self sacrifice, and got to die knowing he would be back in a few years regardless.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Karkarov

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Depends on your perspective!

 

If your one of the little guys Eothas squished not going be calling him anything good.

 

If you think of what he trying to do or his actions with watcher (saving your life) then he becomes good guy. He wants destroy the lies and make gods and everyone work together in truth and not lies.

 

Also depends how you choose look at the age old question kill one person save 1million.

 

Problem is most things are not as simple as black and white there so many shades of gray. Life often forces us choose lesser of 2 evils.

 

How often do people do what they think is good and right thing but never truly think of the consquencies of there actions. Look at KOTOR 2 where most people give money to that poor guy down on his luck, and then Kreia shows you that he gets beat up and robbed. All you end up giving him was pain and suffering. Often if you help someone your only making them relient on you and what happens when your no longer there to fulfill those needs?

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Something not really mentioned much people should think about!

 

Gods where built from ideals and yet look at what they are willing to do to force there ideals on each other and the living. They are ideals yet they sow lies. 

 

Thats part big point ideals are imperfect and if taken to extremes can lead away from very ideal one was/is following.

 

We see it with zealots and extremist with in all the religions in real world too. People follow a religion because of its ideals and for small group they take those to extreme and good becomes very evil they claim stand against.