Way to balance 2H and DW

[Killyox]

Intro

 

Right now DW is clearly superior when compared to 2H for the following reasons:

• Damage - Full Attack is pretty awesome; there is little difference in dmg between 2h weapons and single handed weapons (like axe)
• Speed and Recovery - with how quickly you swing and recover (inherent -30%) it makes it a lot better when you want other actions to be taken such as casting spells, drinking healing potion, using a skill, etc. Inherent n-30% bonus means that often -15% talent doesn't even have to be taken)
• Utility - 2 unique, enchanted one-handed weapons clearly give you more bonuses than two handers, especially with some two-handers having aoe that damages friendlies as well
• Adaptability - It's pretty easy to have Slashing/Crushing/Piercing damage with your weapons and have a set for every single occasion

 

I think that atm it would be better to risk overbuffing 2H by a small margin, then underbuffing and having it be weak and not offering different gameplay. What I think could help move 2H into right direction.

 

• Double Might bonus - this is similar to what DnD has/had where 2H received +50% STR bonus. Here I think we could go for double, so 20% is 40% etc. reasoning: 2 hands, more force behind the attack
• +1 penetration on all weapons, reasoning: the same as above, more force behind the swing
• Talent Two-Handed weapons changed from 15% dmg to 15% dmg and 15% recovery speed, reasoning; 2H suffers a lot by not being able to respond to what is happening due to longer recovery and is because of that a double-edged sword that can cost our characters life. Also while 2H are heavier we ARE using 2 hands, and not 1.
• DW inherent bonus of -30% changed places with talent -15%, so DW is -15% and talent gives another -30%, there is more tradeoff when doing builds then

 

I think that would be a start.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Killyox

[AndreaColombo]

Mandatory post in which I state my contrariety to anything that slows recovery for any weapon class. It’s already slow enough as is, and only acceptable if you stack speed bonuses. No one likes to stare at idle guys sitting through a lengthy recovery.

 

Combat flow is generally good now, IMO. Recovery values could come down 1s versus where they are now, to be honest—perhaps for spells too.

Edited May 20, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[GuyNice]

I like your ideas, however I think double might bonus should apply only for full attacks. That as well as +1 penetration globally I think would be enough. Or at least I would test those before adding anything else.

[Elric Galad]

This is a good topic, but 1H Style should also do as much damages as DW and 2H (even if not necessarily against the same targets).

 

Furthermore, I think that a part of the problem is that most class "ultimate" abilities are Full Attacks (Heart of Fury, Charge, Whirling Strike, Gambit... even FoD, Retaliations and Riposte).

For Primary Attck, 2h get more benefits but these abilities aren't usually that strong.

 

Changing Charge to Primary Attack (with a bonus) would be a good idea for example.

Adding Full Attack bonuses to 2H or 1H Styles could be a solution too.

[mammasaura]

The points arisen don't fully persuade me.

Adaptability: with greatsword + morning star, pollaxe + pike or mix, you're already covering all the type of damage.

Speed and recovery is tricky, and don't think the unbalance is so wide, it becomes noticeable if using modals.
With leather armor, 9 dex using dw + style, 13 dex using 2h. Why these numbers?
Because numbers aren't too much narrowed, for me is easier to see discrepancies and 4 dex is a fair pay off to increase the performance of two handed weapon.
With fast weapons the recovery is 2.2s; medium: 2.9s; heavy: 4.4s.
Rapiers' modal (fast) brings the recovery up to 2.9s. Not anymore 2x faster than heavy weapons but fine.
Sabres' modal (medium): 3.9s. Middle way, still fine.
Warbow's modal: 5.8s. Killer, no doubt.

Modals for heavy weapons are to avoid, but the other modals reasonable get close to the haevy weapon.

If I take the sabres, with modal on and without two weapon style, the recovery rises to 4.6s becoming slower than heavies.
In this case sabres would be seen like heavies and only putting 13 dex can low the recovery time to 4.1s.
If the recovery of dual weapons is nerfed, you're going to invest much more than 4 dex to make sabre's modal faster than a greatsword.
We would have heavy weapons faster than dual sabres (modal) and people trying to understand why can't they dual wielding greatsword instead of sabres (right, why? I'm a big aumana, I can easily handle two greatsword in each hand, come on!).
Touching the recovery of the heavies is probably the safest thing to do (but not too much, or the sabres' problem will rise again).

Damage, is another issue because of backstab. If you touch the damage, backstab will be next (surely not a buff), indirectly also touching one handed and dual wieling weapons damage, ready to open the pandora's box?

I agree with the utility, but don't have direct experience in this case. I have seen the crazy bonus of one handed weapon, but didn't see anything for two handed weapons. Probably having the % of triggering stuffs higher on two handed weapon will be fine.

Edited May 20, 2018 by mammasaura

[dunehunter]

I also voted for double might bonus, now every melee classes can dump might because it has very little impact on damage...

[aweigh0101]

One very very easy band-aid that takes less than 5 minutes is increasing the Damage Bonus given by Two-Handed Style. I know, I know, but like I said: band-aid.

[Killyox]

The points arisen don't fully persuade me.

 

Adaptability: with greatsword + morning star, pollaxe + pike or mix, you're already covering all the type of damage.

 

Speed and recovery is tricky, and don't think the unbalance is so wide, it becomes noticeable if using modals.

With leather armor, 9 dex using dw + style, 13 dex using 2h. Why these numbers?

Because numbers aren't too much narrowed, for me is easier to see discrepancies and 4 dex is a fair pay off to increase the performance of two handed weapon.

With fast weapons the recovery is 2.2s; medium: 2.9s; heavy: 4.4s.

Rapiers' modal (fast) brings the recovery up to 2.9s. Not anymore 2x faster than heavy weapons but fine.

Sabres' modal (medium): 3.9s. Middle way, still fine.

Warbow's modal: 5.8s. Killer, no doubt.

 

Modals for heavy weapons are to avoid, but the other modals reasonable get close to the haevy weapon.

 

If I take the sabres, with modal on and without two weapon style, the recovery rises to 4.6s becoming slower than heavies.

In this case sabres would be seen like heavies and only putting 13 dex can low the recovery time to 4.1s.

If the recovery of dual weapons is nerfed, you're going to invest much more than 4 dex to make sabre's modal faster than a greatsword.

We would have heavy weapons faster than dual sabres (modal) and people trying to understand why can't they dual wielding greatsword instead of sabres (right, why? I'm a big aumana, I can easily handle two greatsword in each hand, come on!).

Touching the recovery of the heavies is probably the safest thing to do (but not too much, or the sabres' problem will rise again).

 

Damage, is another issue because of backstab. If you touch the damage, backstab will be next (surely not a buff), indirectly also touching one handed and dual wieling weapons damage, ready to open the pandora's box?

 

I agree with the utility, but don't have direct experience in this case. I have seen the crazy bonus of one handed weapon, but didn't see anything for two handed weapons. Probably having the % of triggering stuffs higher on two handed weapon will be fine.

 

Some example of DW combo

 

Right now my Serafen (pure cipher) has the following combo:

 

Gauntlets of Greater Reliability (30% miss to hit conv) + Rushed Reload Modal - he pretty much always at least grazes, here comes another point

Scordeo's Trophy + Mainhand weapon + DW talent. I had Serafen attack every 0,5s or so in melee for 30-40 dmg easily.

 

There are no "combos" of items as these with 2handers unfortunately. Cannot unload 2-3 times with rushed reload and then proceed to destroy targets in melee.

[Leafar]

The modals of all weapons also should be looked at. Currently the cons vastly outweigh the pros.

[dunehunter]

The only appealing 2h weapon is Whipsers of endless so far... But it's because it's just an awesome weapon, 2h weapons are just so meh right now.

[funkyfritter]

Buffing two-handed style would definitely be a good starting point, increased damage is an easy stat to come by and 15% winds up being close to nothing. The increased recovery speed or crit conversion other styles offer both scale way better.

 

 

One buff I'd like to see for 2-handers is some kind of accuracy bonus, particularly early game. Missing when you only swing once every 4-5 seconds feels awful, balance aside I would enjoy playing with slow weapons more if they didn't whiff as often.

[flamesium]

The modals of all weapons also should be looked at. Currently the cons vastly outweigh the pros.

A lot of this is due to balancing. No point having a modal to raise Pen if you never need to.

 

I find a few of the modals to be very good though, particularly the ones which lower a certain defense (Morning Star, Pike etc) or lower Accuracy (Hatchets). I usually have Eder lowering Fortitude with the Morning Star modal, which my Barb can target instead of deflection (whichever is lower) thanks to Brute Force.