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Slightly off topic, but Isn't SRD open licence? I don't know. That's a good point, though. I mean, it would make virtually the same rules possible. I think they'd have angry folk on that end too. ...But I'm like Namutree. I won't call someone names for wanting the same mechanics. Well... maybe in a fit of irrational anger, but then I'll regret it. :Can't huge grin icon:

Words do matter. Otherwise every post we make here would be random gibberish. (Okay, okay, I know that to some of you, that's all *mine* are.) The point is, the problem is defining the terms. For example, I don't prefer 'quest XP' or 'objective XP.' Nope, I prefer 'results XP.' I throw my own little term into the mix and it can be confusing, especially if I don't state clearly how it is different from the others. I'm not going to do that for 'results XP' now because, to be candid, this thread has so much to digest that I don't want to muddy the waters. For that reason, I've been using 'quest XP' and 'objective XP,' and by and large I've been using them interchangeably. I agree with my Hellraising friend that there is a difference in definition, but it's become so muddled that there isn't much difference in usage. Likewise, if you define 'spiritual successor' as 'slavishly following every old convention because people have been conditioned to expect it in the manner of Pavlov's dog,' then I think the phrase will cause heartache and grief. ...But Obsidian didn't cite a bunch of random games in appealing for backers. They cited Infinity Engine games. Now, as I've said quite a bit, that doesn't mean it must have 'kill-' 'combat-' 'random ganking XP' to do the job, but I can't get mad at folks for bringing it up. That's a point of discussion, and I don't want to trivialize what I see as a valid point of view with which I disagree. 'kill XP' was not what made the IE games great for me, and so it is not necessary for PoE to have 'kill XP' in order to have that great IE feel. Of course, I could mention Lephys' distinction between 'combat-' and 'kill XP' because I agree with it, but why interrupt the successor argument? :Cant's **** eating grin icon:

Damned straight I can! :huge grin: On a serious note, Hiro, I don't think it should matter at this point whether someone is a backer or not. What should matter right now is who has the better idea. They could do away with the backer badge thing or whatever it's called. I trust Obsidian to do the game right, otherwise I would not have backed it. When I decided to back it, I did so understanding that they were the ones designing the game and would undoubtedly do it better than me anyway.

I frankly get irritated with you sometimes, Immortal, but you have to respect a straightforward statement. ...And, for the record, yeah, I *did* know my counter argument regarding combat and XP was a rehash. Then again, what the hell isn't at this point? :Cant's rueful grin icon: Then there's this, which made me laugh out loud: "rage monkeys throwing digital panties" I love Gromnir when he's not beating me up. The bastard! I think we need more levity in these XP threads before we start eating each other. :Cant's looking over his shoulder icon: For the record, I'm too grisly to taste good.

I wouldn't take it personally, Hellraiser. We beat Grom with a stick, feed him raw meat, and then turn him loose on folks all the time. That's when he's not going after one of us, and there are bruises to prove it. :Cant's wry grin icon: The thing is, on any other particular issue, you might be on the same side with someone who's a bitter enemy in this thread. No biggie. I myself *do* think that PoE is intended as a spiritual successor to the IE games, but like Matt up above says, the aspects they want to enshrine with PoE are specifically stated. When folks use the 'spiritual successor' argument to clamor for a particular feature, it can probably be off-putting to some folks. Now, I've always given wide birth to the IE successor argument because I think it's one of the better ones for combat XP. Note, I don't want combat XP. I hate it and have since waaaaay the hell before PoE was anyone's idea. ...But it's important to me personally to own up when I see positions I personally believe have merit. I don't think the fact that PoE aspires to recapture some of the IE experience (as something we experience as gamers playing the game) means that it must by necessity have combat XP, but it is a point of deliberation. It is only one point and as a single point it does have its limits. The way each IE game doles out experience is different at least to some degree, up to and including no combat XP for large stretches of IWD2 in the times I played it. That's not a flaw in the crpg. That's the way WotC decided to structure XP in 3.x. Frankly, there's nothing much new in the voluminous course of this debate. There are clever ways of stating the same arguments, but it pretty much boils down to whether you like or don't like the decision and, if you don't like it, whether or not you will let it destroy all your good will. Some folks are probably over eager to defend Obsidz. I'm probably one of them. On the other hand, as someone mentioned up above (I beg pardon I can't remember who) there are folks who had set their hearts against PoE because of some earlier slight and will jump at the opportunity to attack the game now that there's a beta. There will be even more who come out of the woodwork upon release. I'd like to think the vast majority of the people here aren't simply haters, though. Maybe they hate some aspect or another, but they still want the game to be fun and do well. Just the view from my rose colored glasses. EDIT: Went to look and Curry made the reference I cited above.

Finally got back to the game and I'm preparing to go to the Forest of Borean Beetles. Anyhow, I had some loot to pawn, so I went to the sale-bot. just a quick question, is the *missing string* a special bow enhancement item? <.< :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon:

I think some of the discussion is becoming confused. The first thing I'd say is that quest only is perfectly viable design decision, and so if you advocate that, I'm not putting you down as holding that specific point on the spectrum. It seems to me that many of the people arguing for a quest based system either have a much looser interpretation of 'quest' or don't really advocate quest only in the first place. I'm in that number. Since I think terminology is important, and this thread exemplifies that fact, I don't like the phrase 'quest only.' I prefer 'results oriented,' but I don't want to dilute my point by getting into the nitty gritty of my position just now. The point is, there's a lot of overlap in what folks want from the game, and some of the folks seem to be separated less than their arguments would suggest. Second, while I think some of the exchanges are heated, I don't think you're a mindless basher to come in here and offer suggestions. I don't think backing the game gives you license to make demands and I don't think the devs should be forced to respond to every line of inquiry, but I do think that being a backer (or even a long term fan) should earn you at least some consideration. Take my ideas or don't, but we should at least try to be charitable on all sides of this. That doesn't mean I won't end up flaming someone, but I'll try to be considerate about it when I do. :Cant's wry grin icon: Vol is pretty good about getting under my skin. I'll end up flaming him and getting banned or something. <.< I don't think the combat XP folks will win the day, but keep fighting for what you want. I would. Moreover, even if the combat XP crowd *doesn't* win, that doesn't mean the devs might not be swayed into a much more incremental change such as the suggestion regarding encounters with big monsters or unscripted encounters. I personally don't think every bit of XP should need to be tied to the quest log *beforehand.* I like the idea of some encounters, of all stripes and varieties, with some that can only be successfully completed in one or two ways and some that have multiple solutions, yielding XP as the party progresses. It keeps the game fresh and gives it a spontaneous feel without taking away *any* of the control the devs want to have. I *do* believe anything that yields XP should have a reference in the journal as a significant event, but without being so crass as to actually state XP or the like. At least the journal proper. The stats can do whatever the devs want and I'm sure that folks who follow the stats want to know things like the XP allotments and creature power etc.

I'm at a crossroads on this, but, while I have answers to the points in question, I don't think it really relates necessarily to the discussion at hand. So, without retreating from my particular position, I'll let my words stand as I have already written them and agree to disagree with you, oak. :Cant's wry grin icon: ...But that doesn't mean I yield the prerogative to flame you later out of spite or just plain orneriness. :D

I'll answer some of those question for you, mel. :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon: I did respond, but only to explain that I think he thought one of my messages pertained to him but it really didn't and that the last time I checked the board did allow people to be blocked. I also tried to say that, since it was a misunderstanding that he would not be angry but that on the other hand I simply wouldn't stop posting. I didn't do it to piss him off, but I also don't think he read it. lol I don't know if he were successful, but I *do* get a 'sexist internet stereotyping from a certain narrator in this thread. :Cant's shifty eye-con: I won't name names and it doesn't matter. He's either an alt or someone new. If he's new, then I don't want to discourage him. If he's an alt, I don't care... unless he's Eldar, in which case I'm confused. Cantousent is certainly no one special compared to most of the other regulars here. Eldar was a **** who would get pissed off and rampage from time to time. They are not the same person. These questions have been answered and next, on What You Did Today, we'll be delving into the life of some different member. Perhaps even *you,* mel! Bwahahahaha Either that or Gorth. I mean, the guy feeds lizards in a land where half of the living things are poisonous, and that included the human population. Or Fionavar. Dude knows his wine.

I agree, ngreennz. Being Catholic myself, I want something new. The problem is that the Catholic Church provides a good template for a hierarchical religious structure. I don't know what the devs are going to do, and they probably don't listen to me anyway :Cant's rueful grin icon: but they'll probably have at least something like the Catholic church. But it would be good if maybe the nature of religion in the world isn't so consolodated that something as large as the Catholic Church exists. Maybe something more along the lines of Islam and Judaism where there are various holy men and teachers but no one overarching power speaking for a huge swath of the population. Of course with soul magic and established divine entities, maybe it's all kinds of funky.

You rat bastard delinquent, Raithe! Okay, I have a story also. We used to have an old green Impala. The gas gauge broke and so I would have to keep track of the mileage until I fixed it. I used to have to fly up to Concord, CA all the time for business. I ended up there for a couple of weeks once and, flight delayed, getting back to SoCal, working at 7am with a half hour drive, I got three hours of sleep before I went to work and got the call that none of my brothers and sisters in Las Vegas could help the folks move. So, I finished work and drove immediately out to Vegas. I got there late, but had to go to Walmart for something to wear. I got a pair of cheap green shorts and borrowed a pair of my dad's shoes and a tie-dyed t-shirt that was a size or two too small. I moved everything the next day and then, exhausted from lack of sleep went to sleep until the next day. I got up and, over the protests of my mom and dad, drove home. I had to give the shoes back to dad, so I wore my new green shorts, a tight tie-dyed t-shirt, and my dress shoes and socks. On trips, I can stay awake by drinking tons of caffein, running the air conditioner on high, and putting off using the restroom. It's miserable, but it keeps me awake. So there I am, frozen, hyped on caffein, and desperately putting off the restroom when... Remember the broken gas gauge? So, I run out of gas and have to pull over. I get out, exhausted and miserable, and start walking to the nearest exit. A little cesspool by the name of Stoddard Wells road somewhere between Victorville and Barstow, I think. Anyhow, I'm walking towards the exit in my green shorts, tie-dyed shirt, and dress shoes when a semi stops and the passenger door opens and a man asks in a pronounced Southern drawl, "Ya need a rahde?" I looked up, weighed my chances of getting murdered, decided I just didn't care, and had him drop me at Stoddard Wells Road. Anyway, if I'd been thinking clearly, I would have bought a gallon of orange juice, dumped it, and filled the container with gas and walked back to the car. As it was, since neither of the two gas stations (dumps) in the place sold gas can, I called the wife and she had to get out of bed, buy some gas cans, and come to me to fill them up and bring them to me some eighty miles away. We got the car to the gas station and filled it with gas whereupon my wife insisted that we have breakfastfast at the only place nearby... a Marie Calender's. It is a testament that my wife, who always worries about being presentable (which calls into question why she married me) actually walked into the joint with me dressed as I was. This last Thanksgiving, unbidden and without spite, the thought came to me that I was thankful I don't talk to my family any more. Now that my dad is dead, there is truly no reason for me to see any of them again. Anyhow, tonight I broke into a little Irish. As snobbish as people can be about Scotch, and I'm guilty too :Cant's repentent grin icon:, I think a little Irish is good. For one thing, Scotch is a little much for getting drunk but I don't feel guilty breaking into the Irish. The sad truth is, no matter what else they provide, pretty much everything other than Scotch is for getting drunk, from cognac to rye.

Wow, pretty damned impressive. You actually answered everybody. That's just plain cool, although I don't know enough about programming really to contribute to the discussion. :Cant's sheepish grin icon: ...But I do approve of the whiskey. I once made a trip to Scotland for, among other things, enjoying a bit o' the whiskey from the headwaters themselves, so to speak. Come to think of it, we talk way too much about booze on the Obsidz boards.

Aw, well, I have to plead guilty on that one. I do sometimes find weird ways to word things. :Cant's sheepish grin icon:

The thing to keep in mind is that, while this update didn't have the discussion that a story-line or game-mechanic update would, it's still garnered over 8k views. I'm certain way more people read these updates than post in them, truth to tell, although some lively discussions are certain to arise from a discussion about souls. hehe I'm going to don my asbestos armor and enjoy the show when they get down to the nitty gritty on *that*! :Cant's **** eating grin icon:

Keep up your spirits, Nep, and if you ever make it to sunny SoCal, I'll buy you a beer or two to celebrate... or a soda-water if you no longer drink by then. :Cant's wry grin icon:

Clothing is still a way for people to differentiate themselves in socio-economic categories. It was even moreso over much of the past. I think different countries where 'races' like elves and dwarves and humans identify themselves by nation or region ahead of elf, dwarf, or human makes it even more likely that the style and manner of dress will be more important in order to differentiate groups. Along the lines of what Kaz said, I think the benefits of the armor should transcend mere protection. New Vegas, for example, had excellent reasons to eschew heavier armors in favor of lighter armors. In fact, with beasts like deathclaws ignoring DT, essentially equalizing armor effects from light to heavy, you're better off donning something that either enhances your ability to kill them faster or allows you to avoid them better. New Vegas armor might bump a simple stat, but it's just as likely to raise a skill, prevent radiation damage, provide faster health regeneration or other effects. ...And there's a pretty good assortment of armor in the game. If Project Eternity does the same thing, we might have a lot of different armors, but at least they'll be well differentiated by location, type, and function. Heavier is still better for sheer protection in the long run, but there are good reasons to wear a wide variety of armor. In fact, medium armor may well be the best in New Vegas, and there may be sensible reasons why medium armor might be best in a fantasy game. I think, for sheer protection, all things being equal, 'heavier' armor should be better, but there could be 'realistic' reasons for characters to wear lighter armors. For one thing, apparently mage armor is superior against everything except firearms, and that dimension alone could have all sorts of ramifications. Great, JD. I'll finally be able to throw off those damned mage robes in favor of better kit only to be forced to wear my goofy assed mage robe on *top* of my armor. :Cant's rueful grin icon:

One of the reasons I've been a heavy drinker is that I tend to be able to drink huge amounts of booze without the attending hangover. I've waited until now to post because I actually had a horrible hangover this morning. So, what I've done is gone about my business squinting at everything and everyone and covering my eyes whenever I saw a bright light, which I only hoped could be the afterlife saving me from my hangover. Ugh, if people get these all the time, I don't see how they can drink at all. I'm curious about this Irish Car Bomb, Gftd, so please tell. I promise, I won't be offended. Gratz on completing your dissertation, Nep. Good man! Even if life is a bit unfocused after such an undertaking, it's still awesome you did it. Happy you got home safe, Bruce. As for you, Enoch, first of all, I use vodka, and while I don't buy the store brand stuff, I never buy anything more expensive than Grey Goose. Second of all, most of the time I've already ruined that with Gallo Vermouth. Why? It's the only one I can get at the grocery and I don't want to hie my ass to a packaging store. Third of all, it used to like that olive briny taste. Now I don't think I could stomach another dirty martini. I've sworn them off for live. Finally, if, by whiskey, you mean scotch, I'm with you. :Cant's broad grin icon:

In New Vegas, I had good excuses and even perks that made my use of lighter armors more sensible in certain situations. I didn't need to have any '+1' non-sense. Of course, something like riot gear could become 'elite' riot gear, and that extra descriptive *must* reflect in the game, but otherwise I could just pick up the armor and look at how it bumped up my stats. If you're that transparent, then it should never be difficult for a player to know which armor is better for which situation. It will undoubtedly be difficult sometimes to decide which stats are more important or which abilities the player wants to augment and which abilities he wants to preserve. In terms of realism vs nostalgia, I think the big winner should always be vision and fun. I don't care if it's entirely supported by historical precedent (although 'verisimilitude' is always vital), and I don't care about nostalgia in terms of the armor and weapons at all, but I do want it all to be sensible and add to the game. What I don't want are ridiculously oversized swords or insane looking armor that the wearer should be required to make a saving throw every time he dons it to make sure he didn't castrate himself in the process. Nice update, though. Mostly, though I take it as a good sign that you're getting down to the nitty gritty and clearly you're a hell of a lot more intelligent than me, so I'll trust you to sort it. Grats on the kid, Mr. Monahan. EDIT: I was just thinking, maybe there should be a time when 'elite' riot gear isn't as good as regular riot gear. I think descriptives *must* make sense, but I guess not always in every way you'd expect. There's never any other hard fast rule that works, is there? :Cant's sheepish grin icon:

Oregon is a beautiful state, both the coast and the high desert. I've lived in several states and been to at least 35 of them. Of course, I fancy my native Nevada to any of them. :Cant's **** eating grin icon: Anyhow, the wife is attending a wedding tonight and I didn't go so I stopped by the store to pick up some sour dough rolls. I started some St. Louis style ribs in the crock pot this morning, so I plan on pulled pork sandwhiches and cole slaw. I normally wouldn't drink tonight, but I'm home alone, so I also picked up some sake and a bottle of zinfandel. I plan on having the sake on the rocks, and I rarely dirnk it, so I'll have it first so I can actually taste it. mmm MMM MMMMM

Sound like she has buyer's remorse to me, Nep. Play it cool and you might be the father of her current husband's child! :Cant's evil grin icon: I kid I kid. You're not that reprehensible.

lol I can't see the fifteen levels either. I've tried refresh and the like, but no dice. Anyhow, nothing really new in this one, but it's still good to get an update, even if there's not a ton of stuff to share at this time. Like Red, I'd like to have that dungeon graphic on a t-shirt or something. I would definitely buy one. All in all, very exciting. I'm really looking forward to getting into the thick of things in the game world. Now I just need to wait a year and a half or so. :Cant's wry grin icon:

I wish I had a good group of folks who would play DnD with me. I'd love to try this Firefly game. Sadly, even though some friends have tried to get into the game with me, either I didn't think there were all that into it or they were so aggravating that I wanted to do something else. So, instead of DnD, I'm going to fire up a game of New Vegas and continue my drive through Lonesome Road. BTW, Super Cal, I let the lottery winner live this run. He just seemed so earnest! :Cant's **** eating grin icon:

hmmm, I congratulated you but the board ate my post. Probably ended up at the end of some thread in WoT. Anyhow, nicely done, you glorious bastard. Might I suggest a Chanter named Virgil? :Cant's **** eating grin icon:

I'm still young enough to weep over lots of things, I would guess, but never in public. :Cant's broad grin icon: ...But, and I'm being sincere, I wasn't trying to insult you with the weeping thing. Probably just overstated because I feel just as strongly about including the live instrumentation as you do about excluding it. No excuses, so I'll beg pardon. As far as the poll goes, I think you've got it wrong. There is one option for no. I guess you could include an option for excluding sound alogether as a bottom end, but that's just getting a little silly. So, there's only one bottom to the entire idea: no live instrumentation. There is quite a spread regarding the implementation of live music. I guess, instead of no on the bottom, you could put full score as the initial question, such as "do you want the whole score done in live music?" 1. Yes. 2. No Small ensembles and soloists recordings 3. No Small ensembles and soloists with maybe some cheaper orchestra for parts where it's really needed. 4. No none at all. 4. Don't care. I guess that would be better? ...But it's the exact same thing anyway. There's a spread between full score and none at all and the poll would be far worse if it only allowed the two extremes. Well, I'm torn between wanting to defend my position, which I still hold with conviction, and trying not to offend folks. Please take for granted I'm not trying to offend you. I'm just giving voice to a side that thinks that this may well increase the quality. I feel vindicated in that the composer and management see some value in live instrumentation as well, since there hasn't been a huge hue and cry for it and yet it has been an issue for them.

Huzzah! I love the artwork! ...And that loot bag actually seems like more sweet than funny, but I won't complain about that. :Cant's shifty-eyed grin icon: