Darth Credulous

Subduing and training Atris on Malachor is an equally effective way of ending her teachings - by replacing them with another. Ask yourself this - in the theoretically possible scenario of the Exile being slain by Atris, how do you think things would play out? Kreia has already told Atris where she is going - to Malachor - so that's where Atris will go. Even though Kreia wants the Exile to win, she is still planning for the eventuality that he will lose. That explains how she was defeated the first time, yes. But what you say does not explain why she cannot challenge Nihilus after she has supposedly learned this technique. I don't think Sion was ever a threat to Kreia, ever. Only after Nihilus attacks and drains her does Sion make a move against her, and after seeing Kreia at her full power against the Jedi Council, I doubt Sion could have held his ground when she was in her 'prime'. Sion really needed Nihilus' help in this one. It's quite possible that she thinks she knows, yes. I think she knows he is a wound in the Force, yes. BUT I don't think she's made the leap in intuition that would allow her to grasp just how dangerous the Exile is, and she only realises the truth - and what the Jedi Council are going to do - once the Council says it out loud. Otherwise, why does she not confront the Council directly if she knows what they will likely do? Why does she act so surprised? I think the point is that up to that point, her plans have all been about re-establishing her original plan - to create warriors who can feed off the Force to fight the True Sith. And after the Council, that changes. This mysterious threat is mentioned by Kreia quite clearly at the end, after her defeat, when she tells the Exile that he is ready to fight it. The way I see it, she cannot be doing both - she cannot both be trying to destroy the Force because she hates it, and training the Exile to fight the True Sith. The two are incompatible. The only way I can see to reconcile them is to assume that the reason she hates the Force and the control it has is because it will mean the enslavement or destruction of the galaxy, or whatever, once the True Sith arrive. That is the only way *everything* she says makes sense.

How do you define 'a fall'? Is it the point where the Jedi ceases to be a Jedi in thought, or in action? Or is it the point when the Jedi finally admits it to him or herself? Anakin, at the end of Ep2, is no more fallen than Jolee Bindo ever was, for example, and yet the Council forgave what he did. So when did Revan become 'fallen'? During his later training? When he defied the council? Qui-Gon defied them in the past, and no-one disputes his status as a Jedi. When he fought a war? At what point did he decide he had to declare war on the Republic? Simply: where is the line drawn?

A few movie references that made me smile. Exile: "T3 has a recording of my trial-" Kreia: "We seem to have found it." 'Quoting' Obi-Wan, who, many hundreds of years in the future, will have R2-D2 deliver a message from Princess Leia to him on Tattooine and he'll say: Luke: "I stumbled across a message -" Obi-Wan: "We seem to have found it."

Granted she needs something to destroy the force OR, if that fails, to fight the True Sith. That means: 1) for preference, the Exile or, failing that 2) Trayus Academy, and some pupils If the Exile fails - and he CAN fail! The very fact that it's possible to lose the game through death means he - you - can fail! then Kreia *will* need a backup plan. Hence being powerful enough to reassert her superiority over Sion, her need for more force-sensitive pupils (starting with Atris - Atris thinks she'll be going to Malachor to slay Kreia, but I'm sure that's not how it would work out) *** And no, Nihilus drains the life and the force from those he consumes. He feeds the wound directly because he IS the wound, in the same way as the Exile is the wound. Kreia only acts as the conduit to the wound (through her force blind with the Exile) - leaving the Jedi Masters lifeless, but gaining nothing herself except the satisfaction of having proved her point. Otherwise, if she was capable of this, if she was a wound in the force herself, then she could challenge Nihilus herself - and it's quite clear from her actions that she has failed to do so in the past and does not think she could do so in the future. *** And Kreia does not know the true potential of the Exile, not until the Jedi Council reveal it. Why do you think she gets to her feet, and gasps in surprise when it is revealed? *** And why *does* she need all this, do you think? So she can fight the True Sith! Of COURSE she needs weapons, what do you think this is all about? Why else cut the galaxy off from the Force, if not to end that threat? Why is she so furious that mankind is a slave to the Force? Because it means the True Sith will win! Why else is she doing all this? It's her - and Revan's - agenda from beginning to end! And yes, Nihilus could be used, but he is out of control - and Kreia cannot bring him to heel.

In my own opinion - the Jedi Masters are dead not because Kreia has drained them, but because they've been exposed to the wound in the force that is Malachor. Perhaps Kreia was the conduit, yes. But I don't think she took their powers. She's not like Nihilus and the Exile, she has no 'hunger' inside her to feed. *** And if she could force-wave Jedi Masters from the beginning of the game, then why in blazes is she the same level as you all the way through?! The reason: she has been gaining power through the Exile. I bet at that stage of the game the Exile could force-wave the Masters too, if he was a consular. Her bringing back of people to life isn't wholly unbelievable. There's a force power that allows you to revive fallen comrades, so it's entirely possible that this is what she is doing. *** And Kreia: yes, she is playing it safe, alright. She knows that the Exile is what she wants, a man who is ultimately not controlled by the Force's vision of destiny. This means that it's not the Force's will, but the Exile's resolve, training and skill that's going to decide matters. This leaves open the possibility that he will lose. If that's so, then Kreia's going to need a backup plan. I never said that Atris would 'replace' the Exile - only that she would be someone Kreia would be able to use as a servant, possibly to counterbalance Darth Sion. She's trying to plan for every contingency here. And the way I see it - Kreia stopped coddling the Exile the moment she became powerful enough to stand on her own against Darth Sion. That, I feel, tells me that she was clinging to him for as long as she needed him to survive, to allow her to regain her power through him - and once she's powerful enough, she can begin to try to test him to destruction and see if he really is the one she needs. Her actions Do Not Make Sense, Otherwise.

Ok. Read this. Read it carefully. Both lines. Now, bear in mind that KOTOR and KOTOR 2 are set 4000 years before the first movie. Does this answer your question? EDIT: Ok, if it doesn't answer the question, I'll make it clear. The law is: there shall only ever be two Sith AT ANY ONE TIME, a master and an apprentice. For example: Darth Sidious, Darth Maul. KOTOR is set BEFORE the time when the law of two Sith Lords is made. Therefore, it doesn't exist in KOTOR and there can be as many Sith Lords as can claim the title.

If we watch the FMV when Kreia is challenged by Sion and Nihilus, Nihilus does something - after his attack, Kreia is too weak to even use the Force to pick up her lightsaber. Sion beats her up, and that's the end of that. This force bond the Exile and she share - she leads the Exile to believe that he/she is hearing the Force through her, doesn't she? She makes such an effort to make the Exile believe he needs her. It makes sense, in fact, that the opposite is true - the deaths at Peragus station awaken the Force in the Exile again, and in turn, they awaken Kreia as well. *** As for Sion: Sion clearly wants Kreia alive, though why I don't know. Who knows why. He beat her up on Malachor, and sends her away. When she confronts him again on Peragus, he cuts off her hand and sends her away. He thinks himself free of her, perhaps, and because she's powerless he'd rather she remain alive and powerless rather than dead? Yet at the end of the game she returns having regained her powers, and takes him as her servant again. I THINK that what happens is that Kreia holds on to the hope that Sion will spare her life a second time, and that if she holds him at bay, he won't realise there are others with her. 'Power blinded him long ago, and he cannot fight what he cannot see.', she says. This could refer both to her presenting Sion with herself as a target, and to Sion being unable to see the threat of the True Sith in the background. *** And the Jedi Council - hmm. It's suggested somewhere that all Kreia did was show the Jedi, directly, the pain and horror the Exile carries with him, the full pain and horror of Malachor - and because the Jedi Masters are unable to seperate themselves from the Force like the Exile did - because they're too 'light-side' and too dependent on the Force, they die. This proves, to her, that they are weaker than the Exile in that respect.

Originally, I'm sure, Kreia just wanted to make sure she knew where Atris was and could go back to her if it was needed. Atris was her 'bait' to get the Exile to Telos and defend it against Nihilus - as she'd already managed to 'arrange' it that Telos is where Nihilus would be. She knows there's a history between Atris and the Exile, and she's prepared to use that. However, when everything changes and she realises what the Exile is capable of, then Atris becomes more than a motivation to get to Telos, she becomes a test - Kreia uses the history between Atris and the Exile to turn Atris to the dark side., or at least reveal that was the way she was going all along. From here, one of two things can happen. 1) The Exile will win, Atris will tell him/her where to find Kreia. Another part of the Exile's past is resolved, allowing him or her to look to the future without the distractions of the past - and the fact that the Exile can defeat Atris is more proof that the Exile is the weapon she needs. With luck, the Exile will defeat Nihilus next. 2) Atris will win, and will either spare the Exile or kill him. Either way, it doesn't matter. If Atris could beat the Exile then he wasn't the tool she needed after all - she'll have to figure out a new way to defeat Nihilus, clearly. And Atris will come to Malachor V, which will give Kreia a new apprentice to work with in an attempt to create a new 'Revan'.

When the Exile comments flippantly that Goto should play Pazaak instead of dejarik, I smiled as Goto retorted he hates playing Pazaak because he always feels like his opponent is cheating. I must have seen a billion ' Pazaak is rigged' threads on the BioWare KOTOR 1 boards.

Having realised the threat of the True Sith was out there, I daresay Kreia surmised that because these were the Real Deal: 1) the Jedi couldn't stop them because the 'True Sith' were too strong in the dark side and 2) the Sith couldn't stop them because the Sith would be driven by the Force to serve the True Sith. So she trained Revan to be as focussed within himself as he could be, gave him a clear purpose and a clear goal, to defy the Dark Side while using its' strength and create a strong, powerful galaxy that could fight them. So far so good. That went awry when Malak - who had recieved none of Kreia's self-determination classes - betrayed Revan, but by the end of things, at least Revan had been salvaged. Remembering his purpose, off he goes to uncover this threat of the True Sith. The second part of Kreia's plan - to use Malachor V as a training ground to create those who could 'drain' the Force, the Sith Assassins you meet who become strong when fighting those strong in the Force. These are the 'secret weapon' against the True Sith. But she is unseated when Darth Nihilus (who is either a man who completely mastered this technique or a spectre who is the embodiment of it, people are still wondering about this) drained her of her power and her apprentice, Darth Sion - who had totally flunked Kreia's self-determination courses - cast her out. The Sith Assassins are turned towards destroying Jedi and Kreia's plans are in tatters. So she becomes nothing but a beggar, knowing that the end is coming but unable to really do anything about it or regain her position, until she meets the Exile, Linked to him, she regains her power as he does, and she tries to train him to be able to defeat Nihilus, allowing her to retake Trayus Academy and get her plans back on track. But eventually, she overhears what the Council have figured out, and what she never actually realised - that the Exile is not just a Jedi, but could be the death of the Force. More, he is proof that without the Force, the galaxy can survive. Bingo... all her teachings, all her beliefs and all her plans are suddenly changed by this. If she can break the Exile to her will, she will then have a weapon that can destroy the Force forever - allowing the galaxy to find its' own destiny, and ending the threat of the True Sith - for without the Force, what kind of a threat can they be? And, if he truly proves strong enough to defeat her, then he has come so far that even she cannot subdue him - which makes him not just a weapon in her hands, but a free man who could yet turn things around. In this case, Kreia will just have to have faith - not in the Force, but in the Exile himself.

Of course, because Revan's plan is derailed by Malak's treachery, we never really get to see how far he would have fallen had he continued being Darth Revan. Maybe he had a strong, determined will and a clear focussed goal - and maybe he would have proved Kreia's teachings true if he'd managed to hold on to those things until the end. The fact that anyone who's played KOTOR 1 can turn Revan into the most villainous, murderous Sith Lord who ever was, though, suggests that yes it would have been possible for him to lose his will to the Dark Side. But, we'll never know.

I, uh, don't know if you've noticed, but there are quite a few holes in this game as it is. Check the 'Darth Nihilus Revealed' in the Spoiler section for some curious revelations that give a little more credence to this theory.

Anyone who has played Black Isle's older, beautiful game, Planescape: Torment, might remember the revelation that the main enemy, a powerful nameless spectral entity simply referred to as The Transcendent One, was one half of the main character who had accidentally been split in two by foul magics. KOTOR 2 emulates PS:T in so many subtle ways that it leads me to believe that in all likelihood, the Exile and Nihilus were supposed to echo that story.

On the other hand, Malak tells Saul, in orbit over Taris, that 'your predecessor once made the mistake of questioning my orders, Admiral'. This suggests that he was not always in the position of command he is when you encounter him, and that his superior officer at the time answered to Malak, not Revan. Perhaps that unnamed superior refused to bomb Telos at Malak's order, and Malak killed him, leaving the suddenly-promoted and fearful Saul to give the order?

I'm going to talk about Grand Admiral Thrawn, from the EU's Thrawn Trilogy. A charismatic Imperial military genius who returns from the far reaches of space to find the Empire steadily losing a war with the New Republic, takes command and begins to coldly, systematically and brilliantly retake the galaxy. He wins the loyalty of his troops and officers with his fair, even-handed approach to discipline, his deep understanding of strategy and his quiet, unwavering strength and belief in victory. And in the sequel to that trilogy, you discover that his motives were not purely those of conquest - you find out that beyond the galactic rim are a whole variety of threats Thrawn had been keeping at bay to protect the galaxy and the Empire, using a secret empire of his own, and that he had returned to the SW galaxy to put it in order so it could be ready to help fight against those threats. The writing manages to handle that revelation in a way that is not pithy or false, thankfully. There's a strong suggestion that Thrawn had, in fact, been keeping back the much-maligned Yuuzhan Vong, and that his death opened the way for them to encroach upon the SW galaxy. One of the better characters to come out of the EU, and all the more interesting for not being a force-user at all. There we go - that's your anti-hero, and one eerily similar to Revan.

It was a fresh perspective on the concept of the Force in the Star Wars universe, and it's fresh perspectives that keep a thing from becoming stagnant - especially in the matter of philosophy, and that is what the whole Jedi/Sith thing is about. As for me - this is the only game I've ever played involving Jedi in Star Wars where the concept of what a Jedi is was ever fully explored properly. Jedi Knight - finds a lightsaber in a garage, gains power with no training Jedi Outcast - cool 'retraining' level, but that's it Jedi Academy - Jedi Outcast without the retraining level KOTOR 1: too black and white to be able to go into details The little cut-sequences, with Kreia teaching the Exile various force techniques, really brought the whole 'Jedi' thing to life - useful, characterful powers like Breath Control, references to Jedi healing trances, all the mystical details, helped integrate the plot and the the computer game mechanics sides of things. Coupled with the various moral decisions you're left to make to determine a Jedi's path, and this game was the first to really tackle the 'realities' of what a Jedi is in my opinion. I'm a big fan of the expanded universe's Thrawn trilogy, and the meditative, thoughtful way the Force is dealt with in those books - which Kotor 2 consciously or unconscously emulates - is far more satisfying to me than the way that the Force tends to be seen as just a collection of 'Force Powers'.

You ever play Planescape: Torment? If you don't max out Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma, you practically miss out 1/2 of the background to the plot. And you might not ever find this out unless you are told or you do it by accident. And believe me, that game was deeper, more complex and more in need of exposition than KOTOR 2. And yet, it's still a goddamn masterpiece. This not giving everything to you, right away, it's a Black Isle trademark is what it is. The reason it fails here is because there is not enough in KOTOR 2 besides the main plot to sustain you, unlike in Torment.

Then you know everything you really need to know about Greek tragedy.

It is possible... but, in all honesty, the similarity between the 'Nihilus is born of the Exile' and the eventual revelation in Planescape: Torment (Black Isle's old, great masterpiece that KOTOR 2 tries to emulate) are just so similar that part of me is *sure* it is the truth.

On another level, the concept of corruption, of moral baggage weighing down the universe and cleansing it, is exactly what the Star Wars Expanded Universe is all about. After all, that's what Anakin Skywalker's there for - to put an end to it. We're seeing the buildup of imbalance in the Force that will bring about the need for the clean slate Anakin/Vader will bring. The Jedi Council are not evil as such - they just have such a belief in the light side of the force, and in themselves as the representatives of that light side, that they see themselves as the only ones who can save the galaxy. They don't understand, as Kreia does, that the Exile could be the only one who could defeat Nihilus. They won't let the problem come to its' natural conclusion - they will step in, and try to fix it as best they can with their incomplete understanding, and in doing so doom everything. They rely on the Force to guide their actions - but as far as Nihilus and the Exile are concerned, they are blind on the matter and choose not to admit it. Kreia calls this arrogance, I choose to call it misplaced faith.

I think it's a similar case to T3-M4; you get the general gist of what he's saying by looking at the context and the content of the conversation and the replies you can give him.

The story of the Odyssey is a tale of unravelling of the self. Greek heroism is all based around the name - it's less about morality and more about personality. The Iliad sees this in full flight, with the various great heroes doing great - if not necessarily nice - deeds, and adding to their reputations and names. The Odyssey takes this in another direction. Odysseus gradually gives up everything that makes him THE Odysseus - his crew are lost to him, he's forced to give a false name, and he enters his kingdom as a beggar. He deconstructs himself as a person. The Sith Lords might be seen as adding the christian concept of redemption, or catharsis through suffering, onto this theme, but 'redeeming' oneself through purgatory is never part of the Odyssey - Odysseus never becomes a better man through what he suffers, or for that matter a worse one.

Is Darth Nihilus ever Kreia's pupil? I see him and Sion challenging her in Trayus Academy in that FMV, but that doesn't necessarily mean he studied there - in fact, it makes sense that Trayus Academy is the first time we see Nihilus, as if he is a force 'echo' of the Exile, that's where he was born. I thought Kreia's mention of the betrayal of her apprentices referred to Sion, and the others there, allying with Nihilus. Nihilus then remakes Trayus Academy in his own image, creating others who are capable of the same thing as he (though not to the same degree), and Sion leaves the place, believing himself free of his old master's influence. In support of the 'Nihilus is the Exile's Shadow' theory, if we watch what Nihilus does to Kreia, he drains her of her powers. She isn't even strong enough to force-snatch her lightsaber from the ground. How would he do this? By forming a link - just as the Exile forms bonds unconsciously and feeds off others, Nihilus does so aggressively, creating a purely one-way link. So it's possible that 'link' to Nihilus translates, in some indefinable way, to a link to the Exile as well - the deaths in Peragus station are, we assume, what awakens the Force in the Exile again, and as he regains his strength, Kreia feeds off him. You're led to believe the Exile is hearing the Force through Kreia, when in fact the opposite is true. Kreia needs the Exile, both as a source of power for herself, and as the tool to challenge Nihilus and allow her to retake Trayus Academy to follow Revan's agenda of preparing for the True Sith. To follow another example, the same could be true for Visas Marr - she is able to sense the Exile thorugh her link to Nihilus. To use a metaphor - the Exile and Nihilus are two sides of the same coin, never able to turn and see one another, but Visas, who is linked to them yet has kept her force powers on Nihilus' whim, can see both sides, spinning in the air, once the Exile begins to regain his power. The other thing I'll say is that the 'bad guy is one half of you' twist is just SO reminiscent of Planescape: Torment that I strongly believe it's true.

The Jedi Masters were too dependent on the Force, too in tune with it, to be able to seperate themselves from it as the Exile did, I get the feeling. The Masters seem certain that the wound in the Force can be fought by those who are strong in the Force, they believe themselves the only ones who can save the galaxy, and that the Light Side of the force will always triumph no matter what happens as long as they're in tune with it. As Kreia says - such arrogance... *** Nihilus... the utter lack of exposition on him makes me wonder if there really is anything to him. Think of it this way - all the pain that the Exile cut himself off from, it's got to go somewhere. And so we have Darth Nihilus; not a man, but a spirit born of all that and sustained by the Force. After all, we have force ghosts, so why not? We never see his face, his body simply disappears in a burst of energy when he finally gives out, and when the Exile is given his mask he gets a boost in Force points - almost as if a part of him, another part of the connection to the Force he severed years ago, was given back to him. This explains, perfectly, why Nihilus has to feed on force-users; he is a primal creature following an instinct to continually sustain himself, with no real life or existence of his own. He is the