Reveilled

I'm not sure it would. Consider this scenario: Italy has A Gal, A Vie and A Bud, Russia has A War and A Ukr, and Germany has A Sil. Now, Germany claims to be allied to Italy, while he is in fact allied to Russia. Russia orders A War-Gal, A Urk S A War-Gal, and Germany orders A Sil S RUSSIAN A War-Gal. If Italy supports A Gal with both other armies, then the attack will fail whether Germany supports it or not. However, if only the results of the orders are revealed, then the result is that all armies hold in position. This gives no indication of the fact that Germany supported the attack, when realistically, the Italian Army would realise it is being attacked from Silesia. Though as was said, a veriation of the blind variant where you see the orders of the provinces adjacent to your own and those occupied by you while only seeing the results of those further afield is more realistic, though a heckuva lot more work for the GM, as different reports would have to be sent out to every player.

Unfortunately, while that definition would indeed support my argument that Diablo is not an RPG, it would effectively rule out RPGs like Final Fantasy.

How the fark is Slobbovia a strategy game? It was a roleplay game which in part was set on a diplomacy board that had a single neutral supply centre encircled entirely by impassable mountains! What sort of Strategy game makes it impossible to win and allows new players to join and make up their own countries at any time? I'm not trolling or being dense. You, on the other hand, are clinging to a silly definition of a RPGs that has nothing whatsoever to do with playing a role, and are basing your defense of it on an ad populum fallacy. -- Hey, hold on a minute. What about Paper Mario? That only had "stats" to the same degree as a game like Zelda or an FPS, but it is usually classified as an RPG.

On the other hand, one could argue that the difference between a LARP and improv theatre is generally an audience. And stat-based gameplay and a rule system aren't the same thing. Diplomacy has rules, but it doesn't have stat-based gameplay. In any case, I named three. You could at least deal with all of them.

A LARP. A Civil War Reenactment. Slobbovia.

I'm not. You still haven't answered my question. If an RPG must have stats, then your logic dictates that the countless RPGs that don't have a stats are now no longer RPGs.

Orson Scott Card in his how to write Sci-Fi book breaks down the concept of genres and how we define them. Each genre has staples that we expect, genre set-pieces if you will. Westerns aren't westerns if they are not set in the Wild West. RPGs are not RPGs without RPG elements, and if you ask any designer in the industry what RPG elements equate to, it equates to stat-based gameplay. If you really want to be obstinate for the sake of being obstiante, please suggest how we define the RPG genre other than stat based gameplay and I will gladly tell you how it is wrong with clear examples. Go ahead. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, westerns aren't westerns if they are not set in the wild west, but is every story set in the wild west automatically a western? Every CRPG is a game on a computer, but does that mean that every game on a computer is a CRPG? And even if every RPG has stats, does that mean that every game with stats is an RPG? An RPG is game where a complex story is the driving factor in the game and the character is intended to be complex person upon whom the story usually focuses. It is also fairly heavy on character interaction. I'll tell you now that I've never played Splinter Cell, hell, I don't even know anything about it beyond it's name, but have you considered that maybe Splinter Cell is an RPG? How about your definition? How does that deal with LARPs, Civil War Reenactments, or something like Slobbovia?

If stats don't make an RPG, but narrative structure do, then Splinter Cell is an RPG. I've had this arguement a million times, and what it ALWAYS comes down to is that the defining staple of the RPG genre is stat-based gameplay, period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why?

Hmm...I don't remember saying that it did. I said it had a narrative structure. I don't see how stats make a game an RPG. True, just about every RPG is stat-based, but I would consider this to be a case of squares being rectangles, but rectangles not necessarily being squares. Similarly, most RPGs are stat-based, but a stat-based game need not be an RPG. What have stats got to do with whether something is a role playing game?

Well, we must define RPG according to different criteria. To me, stat based gameplay has no bearing on whether a game is an RPG, and I would not judge the "narrative structure" of the game to be suffiently developed to warrant it having the RPG label. Zelda isn't usually classed as an RPG, yet it has a similar structure. Indeed, comparing A Link to the Past to Diablo I, Zelda's structure is probably even more narrative. I would class Diablo as an adventure game like Zelda, rather than an RPG.

Are you saying that Dungeon Siege 2's story is on a par with Kotor 1's? Because I'll hold you to that. I've never played the Diablos or wanted to, as the consensus seems to be that the story is somewhat lacking. If they want to attract me, they'd have to change it radically, but since it was apparently very successful before, why would they change a winning formula? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, but the story's not the point. The story in Civilization or Zelda isn't very developed either. It's not like Diablo is an RPG, after all, so a detailed story isn't really necessary. Diablo doesn't require any more story than "The world is doomed unless you kill all the baddies." A story in Diablo would be fluff, not substance.

Well, I didn't type it up, and you are correct that Lightning is spelled wrong, and while Oranje is spelled wrong according to American English, it is spelled correctly acording to Dutch, which William of Orange was. Lightsaber is also spelled incorrectly, and Mrs. Peacoсk has the wrong title. Edit: Stupid filter messing up my sentences.

Ooo. Someone do me. ...Not like that, no.

Hrm. I never liked Diablo 2 as much as Diablo 1. What annoyed me most about 2 was the fact that you couldn't go into the Church in Tristram That sucked. I hope they don't go an just make the game more complex. What I liked about Diablo is that I could just walk around and click on sprites for a few mindless hours. Having to put thought into what I did in Diablo II sort of ruined the game for me. Nevertheless, I'll probably still buy it, but I doubt anything will ever match the sheer brainless fun of Diablo.

I think country music, especially depressing country music is best sung by a lady. I dunno, there's something about a deep, bitter feminine voice that appeals to me. I also think that the old pre-Rock & Roll vocalist stuff (has it got a name?) is suited to male and female voices.

What you say?! [/Engrish] <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Turkey has no chance to survive. Use zig for great allah.

Finished, again.

That man is quite simply teh roxxor. When I grow up, I want to be totally awesome like him. While we're posting totally awesome things, anyone else ever seen [irl=http://www.ntv.co.jp/channel/kasoh/kin10.html]Matrix Ping Pong[/url]?

And I held off your attempted pwn. :"> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, no builds. Liverpool is now effectively a neutral supply centre.

I'm not much good at photography, and even worse with a digital camera. Sorry. I really just took that picture for the "Toaster" card. I'm inviting a bunch of friends over today to play it again (of course, with Exam results arriving today, I'm not sure anyone will come). I don't think it will take as long as two hours this time, as we're going to add in more doors and secret passageways. Like a secret passageway between the Bedroom and the Garden, and one between the Loft and the Carbon Freezing Chamber. All I wish is that we had more counters for the characters. When there's only six suspects actually on the board, it's much more tempting to guess those people than pick ones not there.

I took the dice and rolled. Ten. I decided to inspect the Ballroom. I picked something at random. "I suspect Colonel Mustard, in the Ballroom, with the Candlestick." The friend to my left rummaged through his cards. "I don't have any," he said, sounding slightly surprised and confused. To his left another friend did the same. "I don't have any either," she said, sounding very surprised and confused. I sounded shocked. "What?" I said, incredulous. "Are you serious?" They were. And with that one turn wonder game of Cluedo began what may well be the silliest idea we've ever had. We started thinking about how we could make the game longer. Eventually, we came to the conclusion that more elements were needed to make random guesses less likely to be correct, and systems slower to bear fruit. I had a pack of playing cards with a few missing, rendering them useless for conventional purposes, but perfectly good for writing on to produce a new set of Cluedo cards. First we added extra people, and then we added extra weapons. Of course, the board was the board, and we couldn't add in extra rooms...or could we? Suddenly, those Dungeon Floor Plans we never use for D&D seemed a whole lot more useful. We deliberated for a while as to what to include, and spent longer still recontructing the board and making the cards. but finally, we had created the dream of every true boardgame fan. We had created...Extreme Cluedo. We gathered my little sister's friends and set off on a pionerring journey through the until now unseen rooms of Tudor Hall. Had Col. Mustard done the dirty deed with the Lawnmower in the Loft? Had Dr. Black killed himself in his bedroom with a Hand Grenade? We were about to find out. And in the end, after some minor edits to the board, notes on refining the map, and two hours and seventeen minutes of detective work, we discovered the real culprit. It was Rabbi Goldman in the Bedroom with the flaming Torch. We reckon we'll get a few million each when we sell it to Hasbro. The Board: The Cards: The List:

Jeez Louise, I've created a monster! I don't think I can handle four games. I'll sit this one out, I think. However, if you do play a variant, I would suggest that you play one from the Variant Bank's Hall of Fame. These ones are supposedly quite well balanced. Personally, I would suggest Aberration or Zeus V-F (which is not listed there, though Zeus IV is).

I like both kinds of RPGs. I grew up with a SNES in my bedroom, so other than D&D, Console RPGs were my first introduction to the Genre. Frankly, I don't think one can really compare console and PC RPGs, as they are designed completely differently to one another. If you ask yourself whether Torment or Chrono Trigger is the best RPG ever (I believe botha re considered to be the best examples of their respective styles), the only way to answer that is based on which one you enjoyed the most. There is no objective way of quantifying whihc is the better game. Is Planescape:Torment more "adult" than Chrono Trigger? Well, that depends on how you choose to define adult. Is a serious game better than one designed simply to be fun? One might argue that if one wanted a serious RPG, one could go and play Real Life. " It all depends on what you want from a game. Personally, when I play a game, my intention is to have fun. I like Pokemon, Chrono Trigger, Zelda and Mario. Personally, I find the seriousness and the (relative) realism of games like Torment to be rather boring at times, and it is my opinion that it was Planescape:Torment, and not Final Fantasy VII that is/was massively overhyped. In the years that I've owned it, I've played and completed Final Fantasy VII more times than I can count (and every Final Fantasy up to VIII at least twice), and it has given me hundred of hours (literally) of enjoyment. Torment, on the other hand, I've never been able to complete because it eventually becomes interminably boring. Some people like a game that causes them to think, or to be serious. I read books or watch (intelligent) TV when I want to think, but when I play a game, be it on a board, a console, or a PC, be it a Platformer, a Strategy game or an RPG, all I want is simple escapist fun. And I don't think that that simple escapist fun is childish.

All done once more.

Escorting missions can be fun if they're better developed than in Morrowind. All kinds of oddball travelling companions with weird behaviour and demands could make for some good laughs and tricky quests. It would be nice if you could join a Guild of Escorts (no, not that kind of escort ) and make a profession out of ferrying people around. Well, I'd enjoy it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And then, one day, your character provides a very special escort service...*cue intro music* "