Joukahainen

Idea 1: A PC Star Wars game which uses the same engine, toolset, and DM client as NWN2. This game should have all the classes available in the PnP Star Wars RPG. Obsidian has created NWN and KOTOR2 so I wouldn't think it would be a problem to work with Lucas Arts on another project. Idea 2: A MMORPG similar to Guild Wars. With the exception that it would be done as a Star Wars game. One problem with Star Wars Galaxies was that many people wanted to be a Jedi. But, that game really wasn't the best environment for player Jedi. So, my idea is that this game would be like Guild Wars except that players would be Jedi. They would be able to specialize their Jedi into specific fields. Melee, healing, etc. Similar to the Jedi in the novels. Jedi would have the ability to "fall to the darkside" and battle other Jedi in PvP. The main meeting area for all Jedi (Unless they have fallen to the darkside) would be the Jedi academy where they receive their missions and travel the galaxy. Of course maybe there could be a ranking system which would allow certain Jedi to be on the council and the two highest ranked fallen jedi would be Sith lord and apprentice. All ranked players would gain bonuses while they are ranked. One other benefit with creating the game similar to Guild Wars would be that there would be no monthly fee.

I think they keep going with the "real time" rpg's because they are trying to attract a larger player base. I don't see anything wrong with something like the original NWN and KOTOR games because you could play them like a real time game or you could set the game to pause between rounds like a turn based game. Both people should be happy with that. I just hope that companies don't try to do a sort of rpg/fps hybrid system like SOE did with Star Wars Galaxies in the NGE. Let's keep RPG's more like RPG's and FPS'ers more like FPS'ers. They both have their place and are fun. But they don't need to be combined.

Um... Yeah. The problem is that it's not wise to make such huge changes to a game. Especially changes like the NGE which practically change SWG from an RPG to a wanna be FPS. They lost subscribers because they failed at fixing all the bugs and balance issues. The "older players" were VERY aware of the fact that things needed to be fixed. This is such a load of crap. First of all, most all of the old time players I knew didn't even have a jedi. The players who had jedi were the minority. In my opinion, Jedi should have never been in the game to begin with. The first jedi were game breaking due to their power and the NGE brought too many jedi for the time period that the game was supposed to take place in. Besides, what's the point of being a jedi who is weaker than half of the other classes in the game? The original premise of the game was "living in the Star Wars Galaxies" and really had nothing to do with jedi. Once again you don't have a clue. CH's were over powered in the beginning and were nerfed. They lost their uber power long before the NGE arrived. SOE removed them because they didn't want to have one more class to have to balance with the new NGE. Typical words from a jealous new comer who equates the jedi class with all of the older players. The problem with the new comers is that they wanted to immediately be as tough as the players who had been playing for a year. This doesn't happen in any MMORPG. Not World of Warcraft or any other game I've heard of. There are a lot of people whining in World of Warcraft right now because there are raiding players going into the battle grounds with their uber armor. Basically you will always have lazy players who whine because they can't stand up to someone who actually spent some time gathering armor, weapons and buffs. No, the NGE was just a more feeble attempt to rework the game. As far as I'm concerned the game was dead even before the CU. Most of the players were just sticking around in hopes that SOE would some day get it right. SOE should have stuck with the original SWG and just made minor fixes and balances until they had a working game. You know what the CU and NGE was to SOE? There were attempts to keep some of the player base from leaving by leading them to believe that the game was going to be fixed. SOE is a dishonest company. They have poor customer support and they often lie. The NGE was planned for a long time and wasn't announced until after players bought an expansion which was release nearly at the same time as the NGE. As far as the Jedi go... The originaly plan was to have perma-death for the jedi. If they died three times the character would be deleted. This would have been the perfect way to keep the Uber Jedi in check and keep them out of sight. But, SOE was afraid to piss off the players who had jedi. Bad mistake because the jedi created a lot of problems with the game. You were right about one thing. The jedi was an alpha class and they really didn't belong in the game. At least not with out something to keep them in check (like permadeath). You think SWG has a lot of whiners? Ever been to the World of Warcraft forums? Apparently not, because there is a huge amount of whiners there. I think most MMORPG's are like that.

Actually CH was nerfed long before the NGE.

I started playing SWG when it was in beta test. It was a great game but a large majority of the testers (including myself) all stated that the game wasn't ready for release. There was a HUGE amount of bugs. SOE released the game anyways. The game was still great though. As time went on, SOE kept adding cool new things like player cities, mounts, vehicles and later even space flight. All the while SOE kept ignoring old bugs and broken skills that remained from beta. Instead of making small changes until the game was fixed and balanced, they kept making large reworks which brought new skills and systems with more bugs which would never be fixed. I continued playing because I was holding out hope that SOE would eventually hold it together and fix the game. I wasn't trying to become a jedi. My character was a master pistoleer and master creature handler. I enjoyed this combination. The NGE brought a nightmare of changes that completely ruined the game. The best way I can describe it is that I think SOE was trying to turn their RPG into some sort of RPG/FPS hybrid. It was sad. Not only that, but they removed my preferred class from the game completely (creature handler) with no compensation what so ever for my loss. I spend about 1.5 years gathering the best pets possible and even having some custom made by bioengineers. All lost because someone at SOE decided they didn't want to deal with creature handlers. In short, SOE took a game with an awesome potention and slowly destroyed it with huge sweeping changes that just continued to break the game further. Don't want to listen to the people posting on the forums? Try reading any one of the many PC gaming magazines who in their reviews basically said the same thing about the game.

How long has KOTOR2 been out? Seems to me that when you update your PC, there is always the risk that you are going to have issues running an old game. Have you tried playing Baldurs Gate recently? I did and my characters were blazing across the screen so fast that I didn't bother playing it. When I bought my current monitor I consided getting a widescreen monitor. But, I didn't just because I thought there would be issues like your describing. Maybe next year I'll buy the widescreen. Oh and btw, writing rude messages just makes you look like an ass. Not the developers. Obviously the Obsidian rep can't tell you this so I might as well.

Actually, I disagree. I'm pretty sure I remember reading posts from the developers that stated the game(s) were created and then ported to the PC. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Regardless of whether or not they were ported, the fact is that consoles don't have as much potential as PC's. Look at the difference between KOTOR and NWN. KOTOR was created after NWN. Even if you forget about the toolset, multiplayer and DM client capabilities there is still a claustrophobic feel to the KOTOR games which is made up of a series of hall ways with rooms attached where you can complete quests. The only difference between the hall ways is that they were disguised to look like both interior and exterior environments on different planets. My point is that I would like to have a PC star wars RPG made with the same capabilities that NWN and NWN2 has. This isn't going to happen if it's made for both the consoles and PC. As far as epic levels go... I think they are unnecessary. In D&D, 20th level is pretty much epic. Look up some of the famous NPC's in the Forgotten Realms. Drizzt (One of the more famous characters) is like a 16th level ranger or something like that.

I personally think they should take the NWN2 engine/toolset/DM client and create another game. Maybe a star wars game. There are a lot of Star Wars fans who loved the KOTOR series (Check out the current poll on the Lucas Arts site, KOTOR was voted the most popular Star Wars game). Imagine a KOTOR like game with the addition of a toolset and DM client that is available in NWN2. Of course this game should include classes other than Jedi. My least favorite part of the KOTOR series was the fact that they were made for consoles and then ported to the PC. I'd like to see a KOTOR game made with the same quality as NWN2. With the popularity of the first NWN and NWN2, I don't see why game makers won't pursue other games like this. Obsidian has a history of working with NWN and has worked with Lucas Arts in the past. I'd think that if any company could pull off a game like this, Obsidian could.

I'd also like to see the lighside/darkside choices be more subtle. There could be some obvious darkside choices, but not all of them should be. The game should also NOT notify you when you've gained alignment changes (other than the scale shown on the character sheet). All this does is notify the player to reload if they don't like the adjustment. I also think that changes towards the darkside should be much swifter than changes towards the lightside. We should have to make atleast 3 lightside choices in order to make up for each darkside choice. Maybe more...

Hmm... That doesn't sound good. I suppose Bioware owns the unchanged parts of the engine. I'd like to see a company take the whole toolset/GM client idea and run with it. We need more PC games like that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> On the other hand, haven't most of the finest combinations of good game design with good engine design been a consequence of collaboration rather than internal development by a single party? Carmack has created some great FPS engines, but it's always been the third parties who made the most of them. Valve did great things with Half-Life, but they didn't have the resources to invent their own engine while simultaneously developing the game, and neither did id seem to have the creative resources to develop an immersive story-driven 3D shooter. It's situations like that where the magic happens. The success of the Infinity Engine of course was a consequence of a collaboration between Interplay/Black Isle and Bioware, and not of a single developer taking their work and running with it. I guess I take the opposite view. Creative collaboration between parties in which I have good confidence is in most circumstances my ideal. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you took me too literally. I don't care if it's a single company or multiple companies. I'd just like to see it happen. I said that it's too bad that Bioware has partial ownership because Bioware seems uninterested in this type of game now days. They seem to want to do their own thing now. Just the impression I've gotten. I don't think they want to jump through hoops trying to make Lucas Arts or WotC happy anymore.

Hey, just so everybody knows... Bethesda owns the rights to the Fallout series. (w00t) Yes, I know it has been said already 3 times. I am being a smart@ss

I wonder how long it would take to convert NWN2 to a Star Wars game if Obsidian finished NWN2 and Lucas Arts gave them the go ahead to start the project? The engine, client, and scripting tools would be good to go for the most part. I really have to clue how long it would take to make all the models, textures, etc... Not to mention the official campaign. Is there a Developer who would be willing to take an unofficial "shot in the dark"? 2 years? Maybe 1 year? I also wonder if Obsidian has considered other types of games based on the same engine/toolset combination like NWN2? In another thread someone mentioned a new Fallout game. It would be cool if they could design an generic engine/toolset software package that would allow for future expansions. Maybe we could buy expansion packs for different themes which would come with new tilesets, creature models, and everthing we would need to create a game in that specific theme. Such as Post Nuclear Holocost, Old West, Star Wars, etc...

Hmm... That doesn't sound good. I suppose Bioware owns the unchanged parts of the engine. I'd like to see a company take the whole toolset/GM client idea and run with it. We need more PC games like that. I'd also like to see someone come up with a multiplayer game that has server software that can connect with PC or console clients. I would think that it's do able.

This Jedi Knight games are twitch based like that. I like the d20 turn based combat in the KOTOR games. I especially like that you can decide whether or not the game pauses at all.

What the deuce is a quote board? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wait a moment! It is! It has to be! You know when holding sift key and clicking credits in fallouts you get to see quotes by developement staff. This must mean that they are preparing to make fallout 3! The whole bethesda making fallout 3 was just a clever ruse! IT`S OFFICIAL! OBSIDIAN IS MAKING FALLOUT 3!! (w00t) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmm... This brings a question to mind. If Obsidian is developing a new engine for NWN2... Does this mean that they own the NWN2 engine? Or does Atari own it? Or does Bioware have some claim to it in some way? Can Obsidian develop any game they want using the NWN2 engine? I have been hoping that someone would make a Star Wars game with a toolset and GM client, but it might be kind of cool to see a Fallout game like that as well. Although I have to say that I think a Star Wars game would be more successful.

I think one thing the consoles have going for them is the fact that they don't seem to require a lot of RAM and such to perform well. But, the computer industry is constantly improving. The computer industry now has SLI (which I think will help some even if it isn't exactly a new concept) and will soon have a 64-bit OS. I think that performance in computer systems is going to make somewhat of a leap here pretty soon. The best thing about computers is the fact that, when a new grapics card is released, you can buy it and slap it in your system. That way you don't have to buy a new system every couple of years. You can just upgrade one component every year or so to keep up with technology. I can also hand my old components down to my daughter so that she has her own computer and is just a step behind me, technology wise. Then her old components go towards my dedicated server.

See Jouk, right there is the contradiction tho. How do you find out someone in NWN is a bad player? Obviously either someone warns you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you block IP. How do you find out someone in a MMORPG is a bad player? Either someone tells you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you /ignore them. Problem solved in both cases, so really both genres equal in terms. However in NWN a person can change their IP, in MMORPGs they cant remove themselves from your ignore list. So really, if you get right down to it, MMORPG way is the more efficent solution as it stands right now. Also, welp there is your problem right there. Your playing SWG and WoW. SWG is the worst MMORPG out there in many ways. They have a huge amount of potential and for what ever reason SOE refuses to live up to the potential. I had SWG accounts as well in the past. Its just a terrible game from top to bottom. SOE listens to the wrong people each and every time and rather then become more appealing they refuse to fix areas of the game that would improve the game. Its just terrible. Its like saying you hated Halo (I did but beside point) because you played the Original Castle Wolfenstien. SWG is not remotely similiar to any other MMORPG out there. In terms of players, content, or developing company. I mean its no secret and widely known that any SOE programmers with any talent are put on EQ and EQ2, SOE sends the bottom of the bucket to work on SWG. And WoW. Tell me, would you write a review about a 5 Star Restraunt because you ate at McDonalds? Would you claim to be university educated because you passed grade 1? Because thats exactly what you are doing when you hate MMORPGs because you play WoW. WoW is nothing more then a MMORPG with training wheels. Any experienced MMORPG player can max out in WoW is 2 weeks and literally run out of new content to play in 2 months. WoW was designed for Battlenet kiddies and thats where the bulk of the subscriptions come from. So of course your meeting bad people there, look at who the game was designed for! Sorry, but you are getting exactly what you asked for by playing WoW. You cant really complain about it when you get the kind of gaming experience the product is designed for. My advice to you is start signing up for some betas out there. That way you will try products for free and will see a HUGE difference in the experience you have gotten so far. The mass majority of MMORPGs out there do NOT try for the Battlenet kiddies as customers and do NOT treat their products as disowned redheaded step children. Honestly Jour, right now you are doing what I could be accused of if I only played Unlimited Adventures and then wrote a review about NWN from that experience. Or as I said above, you ate at McDonalds and wrote a review above a 5 Star Restraunt. Sadly you have scrapped the bottom of the Barrel with the 2 MMORPGs you choose, now step up and try quality MMORPGs when they first starting. Many MMORPGs are getting close to having alpha and beta tests, give them a try and you will see a dramatic DRAMATIC difference in quality, maturity, support, design, community, and pretty much every area that is important (and lacking in SWG and WoW). Dungeons and Dragons Online , Imperator (new product in 2006 by Mythic), Vanguard, ect come to mind. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, in every single one of your replies to me you've done nothing but make assumptions. I said WoW and SWG are the two MMORPG's that I currently have accounts with. I never said they were the only ones I've played. I've gotten in on the beta on pretty much every MMORPG that's been released in the last couple of years. Except Final Fantasy. The only reason I still have a SWG account is because I kept holding out hope that SOE would pull their heads out and fix it. lol. The reason I currently still have a WoW account is that it was the most recent one I tried. I stayed away from WoW at first because I didn't care much for the cartoony graphics. I just recently decided to give it a try and actually found it's light game play somewhat refreshing. But, I imagine that will only last for so long. Btw, you obviously didn't read what I said about blocking people in NWN either. If your public CD key is banned on a server, the only way you can get back on that server is to go out and buy a new copy of the game. Which, I assume would also be a work around for a MMORPG as well since you would have a new account. I'm through arguing with you because all you are doing is reading a line or two of my posts and assuming the rest. Good day.

Ill leave rest of post alone as we argued it enough! This quoted section though annoy the hell out of me as its blatently false. Are there bad players in MMORPGs? Sure are. And those same players play mulitplayer games online, post on forums, play NWN, ect. No genre is free and clear of annoying or bad players. In fact, at least MMORPGs have an advantage, dont like a person? /ignore them and you will never hear from them again. In todays MMORPGs with instanted dungeons and quests its not like they can follow you around and harrass you, since quests and such instanted they cant enter your dungeon anyways. Unlike boards where no matter how hard you try to ignore a certain poster you will see their replies now and then. Point is, using players attitudes is just a cop out because there is bad players everywhere. Also, certain games attract certain players. You join WoW you KNOW your playing a game designed for early teens and battlenet kids. So you cant complain when you infact meet up with early teens and battlenet kiddies. DAoC is designed for RVR (player vrs player) so you know the people that like confrontation are going to play that game. EQ2 is designed for older gamers who like questing, so you know your going to meet older players who are interested in questing. Each MMORPG out there is designed for a specific type of player, find the game/player type you interested in and you will have far more positive encounters then negative ones. And the same can not be said for message boards, multiplayer gamers, ect. There is NO ONE type of player that plays MMORPGs. They are made up of many many types of all ages, attitudes, ect. To just lump them all into one catagory just shows your argueing about something you have no knowledge of. What MMORPGs (plural because I have to assume you have played 3 or more for at least 1 year each to validate your excessive opinion about them) did you play? What type of players are your looking for? PS: as for selling online stuff, I wont play a soe game because of it ever again, but I fail to see how a company choice reflects on the players? You do know prior to SOE announcement, EBAY and that japanesse company were doing the same thing for years now, dont you. SOE showed their greed, but how does that reflect on who is playing the game? Are you assuming everyone playing is partaking in such activities? Thats the same as assuming every person that likes Star Wars lives in their mothers basement and has no job. Both completely and utterly false. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree that there are antagonistic players everywhere. I didn't say that ALL players in MMORPG's are like that. But, NWN allows you to block a players IP address, public CD key, and login account. So for them to come back to your server they would have to buy a new copy of the game. I should say that I don't necessarily think that all MMORPG's are bad. I was just pointing out some of the negative aspects of them. I still currently have 3 MMORPG accounts. 2 in SWG and one in WoW. I really don't play on SWG much anymore because I just don't have much fun there anymore. It's really sad too because I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I had high hopes for that game. WoW is still pretty fun. I'm currently playing on a RP server and I find that not many players who want to cause trouble play on that type of server. I think they tend to be more apt to play on the PvP servers. I guess the reason why I'm so pro NWN is that I have had far more fun playing on NWN servers than I have in MMORPG's. I've been playing computer games since the mid 80's and I've been playing online for well over 10 years and have played everything from Tele-arena, MUD's, and MMORPG's. I'm also well aware that different online games attract different types of people. The specific type of player that I was talking about is generally the Leet dude punk who will sit in the middle of a heavy populated area spamming some sort of particle effect in order to try and lag everyone. Or maybe he just follows someone around in order to kill steal. Since you have played all those games I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. MMORPG's are going to continue to have problems with people selling items and currency online as well as just trying to cause trouble. It is nearly impossible to effectively police servers with such big populations. Maybe someday they will come up with a solution, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Now we don't need to play through the game. You told the entire story. "

But, the problem is that I think they pretty much have to develop it on the system with the "least" potential and then port it to the others. I may be wrong though. Oh, and capitalism doesn't so much suck. Just mainly Microsoft. (w00t)

Yes I have. Consoles will never out perform the leading edge computers systems. Atleast not anytime soon. Soon we'll have a 64-bit OS to run our 64-bit systems on. My 512mb multi-gpu graphics will smoke a console. In my opinion anyways. :D Of course you probably won't have almost 3 grand wrapped up in your console either. Btw, I shouldn't have said "crappy port". KOTOR was a very good console game. It just doesn't have the depth that a computer game can have.

You know your hooked when you wake up in the middle of the night screaming "NO! It won't compile!".

Hmmm... I think if it changes systems at all... It should go to the PC. I'm tired of getting a crappy port from a console game. lol. We need to see how good a Star Wars RPG can REALLY be made and everyone know's that consoles don't have near the potential that PC's do. (w00t)

I agree. The story should begin with the main character having grown up in the academy. The storylines where you have to discover your force powers and earn your lightsaber are getting a bit old. I'd prefer to start out as a padawan in the academy just prior to my knight trials.

I think the dark side dialog options should be a little less obvious. They should be options that could be considered "doing the right thing". They should be somewhat tempting to even a jedi. Sort of the easiest way to do something, but not necessarily the "jedi way" of doing it. Later in the game as your character becomes more Dark the choices would maybe be more obvious.