Cantousent

That's true. The numbers were the carryover from the early TOMBS days. At the time, from what I could tell, TOMBS was really the brainchild for a small group who lorded over the thing. I've probably done more reports than anyone here and even when I was using the number system, and then foolishly creating another system, the text was always more important. That was where I really had my say. Some of the reports were meant to be funny, but they were always honest.

Hell, I coubt Sawyer even knows this place exists. This is the 5th life of TOMBS. Folks know what it is already and most of them avoid the place like the plague. I think baley's reports are the most innovative. Pixies had some clever work with the songs. Moth's are probably the best in terms of what these reports were originally meant to do: assess a peer. As for the number values, I agree. I've always hated them. I think they're either hurtful, pointless, or lying. Sometimes all three. Still, the numbers game was a carryover from the very first TOMBS. We'll do this narrative stuff and then someone will use numbers. It will be clever and the TOMBS crowd will start using numbers for a while again. However, the real reason folks use numbers is because it's a hell of a lot easier than writing a lot of text.

Good question, SL. i think some of it might have to do with the setting being overpowered. DragonLance might not have been overpowered enough for the folks who love the best left Forgotten Realms. Seriously, though, every setting seems to get more and more ridiculous. That's one area where the Bethesda writers really are better than the Forgettable Realms writers. In either Borrwingwind or Oblivion, the player can pick up a random history. The things actually read like a history. Oh, they're not like histories of old. It tries, as best as possible, to be the boring, soulless gaping black hole of an account that modern history is. ...But at least every account doesn't include some ridiculously over-powered figure who leads some super-powered army against some under-powered kingdom only to be thwarted by some uber-powered munchkin monger. I hate the Forlaughable Realms. I hate the fact that Elminster is apprently everywhere and invincible. If he's everywhere and can beat just about anything, why the hell doesn't he take matters into his own hand? I hate the villains. I hate the hype. I hate the canon. Good Lord, I hate the canon. Wait, I'm running out of steam. I'll revisit your question again later.

Dammit. What I mean to say was that he should show up if he says he's going to be there. It's just poor form. On the other hand, the chat was informative and his absence was largely irrelevant. I suppose we can just write off seeing Avellone at these things.

Llyranor, you're an okay guy. This is great. I don't have the patience to go to these online chat things, but I sure appreciate the fact that you kept a transcript.

How do you implement that many PrCs into the campaign? It won't mean anything. It's just idiotic. Well, I've seen some good and bad ideas so far.

Are all those PrCs going to be in the packaged campaign?

Romance de los pinos Andres Segovia

I'm getting confused. Are we saying the packaged campaign will have more NPCs, or the toolset?

Whatever, Laozi, you swine. Hey, by the way, I'm listening to Weathered from Creed's Weathered CD. Now, maybe you can tell me something. If you were going to listen to classical guitar, who would you choose for the composer, song, and performer?

God, the denizens of the best left Forgotten Realms have turned "canon" into a swear word.

Creating the sort of overpowered characters Gromnir suggested isn't a step forward. NWN2 will sell loads and loads no matter what. They could probably sell the box with nothing but a copy of Pee Wee big time adventure inside. Let's face it, this is about as close to a guaranteed sale as anything, even KotOR. On the other hand, if they drop the ball, it will hurt them in the long run.

Someone grill the devs for me, please.

My own prison. Creed.

Accepting, for the sake of argument, that you're right about the average NWN player (although I hope you're wrong on the monkey sex thing because... well... because) then is it too much to ask that they make the PrCs part of the campaign. This is something I've mentioned before. At any rate, Gromnir, it's not like either of us are stating anything we haven't already. We can't change PrCs, but we can always advocate making PrCs a more natural extension of the campaign, can we not?

You're secretly a doofus. Oops. I guess it's not a secret any longer.

I understand what you're saying, Kaftan, but that's another argument. It's like the psionics thing. We could make reasonable arguments on all sides, but that's not the point. If we're going to discuss DnD, core classes are part of the discussion. What I've detailed is still DnD. It's just taking the core material and going a different direction. I'm halfway convinced that half the prestige classes were created to force players to take some of the less popular skills and feats.

I'll save the larger psionic conversation for later. Partly because we could devote a whole thread to the subject and a lot of us would probably have some extensive comments. To be fair, partly because I have a personal dislike of psionics that really doesn't have a place in discussing the merits of the game. However, I disagree that sticking with the core characters is a grave risk. It is a risk, but then again virtually every design decision is a risk. Straying very far from the core classes and races is a risk as well. The rules allow for a wonderful variety in the first place. As you've cited, Gromnir, the core rules are quite flexible in the first place. Most, not all, of the expansions don't really give more freedom. Rather, they are limiting. Fair enough, there will always be limits in any game. We've had this discussion before, and I suppose it's pointless to keep at it, but I've got a few minutes to waste. Since that's the case, I'll reiterate my previous comments regarding character classes. The core classes allow for wonderful role-playing opportunities. If the design team wants to create a guild that specializes in the recovery of lost artifacts, let's say, then that's part of the campaign setting. The player may join the guild and face limitations from the very beginning. The first limitation might be something akin to taking an oath. Fair enough, that's limiting, but the limit is self-imposed. The player now has a choice of joining the guild and taking the oath or not. Once he's taken the oath, the player has a choice of staying true to his oath or not. All is well and good. Now, the next limit hits. The guild might charge dues. The dues could go to operating expenses for the guildhall or funding expeditions for artifact recovery. The player has to choose whether or not to pay the dues. That's another choice on the part of the player. Stay in the guild, follow the oath, and pay the dues or not. Perhaps the guild would take a service in lieu of money. Provide the service or provide the cash? Make a decision. Furthermore, the guild probably requires some sort of service. Why does the guild recover lost artifacts? Is it a museum? Is it a school? Is the artifact recovery part of a larger plan to gain power? These are questions that spring from the campaign rather than a splat book. The motives behind the guild masters, let alone the guild members, are almost certainly varied if not disparate. choices choices choices So, the player can choose to support any one faction in the guild. If he chooses to throw in his weight with the faction that studies and preserves the artifacts, he'll probably need to devote at least some skill points to knowlege skills. If he's more into artifact recovery, he'll undoubtedly want to invest in bluff, information gathering, and diplomacy. He might even want to save the population from evil artifacts. What skills and feats would he need? Perhaps he even fashions artifacts. Ultimately, however, advancement in the guild should not rely on a strictly predetermined set of skills and/or feats. Most advancement should come as the result of undertaking and completing various missions or tasks. Sure, some skills or feats might make those tasks easier. Perhaps some tasks require particular skills or feats. For example, advancement might entail passing an exam. Knowledge would almost certainly be a requirement. Still, advancement should almost always be performance related rather than forcing the character to check off items on a grocery list of skills/feats/spells/attributes/whatever. As the character progresses, he would still keep his core class, but now he's added something to it. He'll always be a fighter, but now he's a Artificer of the fifth rank in the guild Artifact Mongers. As a member of the guild, and as someone who has proved his worth, he has access to specialized education (skills), training (feats), and minor artifacts (items). Instead of forcing the player down an ever narrowing track, his new "prestige" status allows for more freedom and options. Finally, such a formula would be part of the game from the backstory up. Rather than including a bunch of different "prestige classes," some of which don't even lend themselves very well to the vision of the design, the developers can custom make everything. The story remains far more cohesive. Of course, the ship has sailed on this one, but I would much rather see something like this than the prestige classes as WotC has created and implemented them.

"During the course of the presentation, Urquhart explained that one sub-race was intentionally left out because of their perceived suitability in a combat-based RPG: the Ghostwise Halfling. For non-Dungeons & Dragons players, the sub-race has developed psychic powers, which for the developers didn't sit well compared to the more physical skills of the other sub-races, and therefore Obsidian decided to leave them out of Neverwinter Nights 2." Good. Focus on the core classes. Throw in some of the ridiculous Prestige Classes, but keep those reasonable also. I've always hated psionics in DnD. I mean, from the very beginning. "Key to creating a strong atmosphere, the lighting in Neverwinter Nights 2 is dynamic, allowing modders to change the atmosphere of the gameworld. Day/night cycles are available too, from dawn through to dusk and everything in between, with the toolset featuring three different light to help create a realistic lighting system: the sun, the sky, and the ground itself. The colours of the lights can of course be changed by the modders too, which was cue for Urquhart to produce some of the most trippily lit environments this side of a 1950s 3D-movie without the silly glasses. Cloud and fog densities can also be changed and amended via the toolset, so there's a lot of scope for gamers to create a very moody environment." If anything from this game is going to encourage me to build a mod, this is. Awesome.

Good thing I'm out of the "18-21" range. Of course, I was playing computer games between 18-21 years of age. I drank beer, which was perfectly legal for a serviceman overseas, but never did any pot. If the findings in this study are legitimate, then the results will repeat. At any rate, I discard the study for two reasons. First of all, we must compare the results in such studies to real life events that must undoubtedly reflect and reinforce the outcome. For instance, are violent crimes on the rise in relation to violent games? Are accidental deaths more common as a result of "risk taking?" Second of all, a certain willingness to take risks is not bad. Willingness to take foolish or unnecessary is bad. For example, if I risk my life to save my wife from a burning house, that's undoubtedly a risk, but it's a good risk from my perspective. Likewise, it's a risk to ask a girl out for a first date. I've been willing to take that risk many times in my life. It's worth it. While some folks might say that risking, or even losing, your life in an attempt to save a loved-one is foolish, I disagree. One may freely level the charge of "fool." The other is more than right in leveling the charge of "coward." Moreover, it's risky to tell the schoolyard bully that he can't take your money. It's undoubtedly worth the beating. ...And you just might win. Risks can be bad or good. Let me make a controversial statement: Violence can be bad or good. I would never regret doing violence to someone who attacked my wife. Sure, I would regret the situation. I would not enjoy nor would I revel in the violence. However, protecting my wife would be well worth the price of violence. Taking risks and standing up for yourself is not evil, no matter what these studies suggest. Stop worshipping crystals. We're human beings, for crying out loud, and we live in a violent world. It has always been and will always be thus.

I haven't been quite so rabidly following NWN2. I'm still, even now, a bit leery of it. However, I am going to pre-order. If there is a collector's edition, I will pre-order that one. I'll probably enjoy it quite a bit, even if it's not as great as I hope. In the meantime, Obsidian has provided me with the game I play more often than any other over the long haul: T.O.M.B.S. For that, I will support their games and hope I enjoy the rest of them as much as I did KotOR2. EDIT: Furthermore, I might even gift a couple out to friends.

mkreku is right. The final quest for the mages guild was really cool, but only if you like playing the good guy. Of course, it might be great from a wicked perspective, but I wouldn't know.

Ah, I've always played the good guy in that particular quest. As a result, I've never had the spell. ...And Deirdre could probably cast it at 100 intelligence, 77 Destruction. No regrets, however.

In general: It's not the best CRPG in ten years. ...But I've spent more time on it than with any other CRPG in the last few years. To meta: Showoff. To pool: :Eldar's shaking his head with a wry smile icon:

and what the rodent killing cat says, goes.