Cantousent

I'm going to look into the opengame link Llyranor posted. I have it downloaded, but it didn't work earlier and so I'm going to have to poke around and see if I can get it to run.

Hats off to you also, Deraldin. I've received Nick's character also. The rest of you should get something to me.

Far Thel looked up at the Inn. Set at the crossroads with a river and ford on one side and the Imperial Way on the other, the large building stood out like a sore thumb. Disdaining horses, Far Thel walked quietly up the road, lost in contemplation. The sky was clear and blue and there was an exotic aroma drifting on the air. What was it? It could have been the scent of cherry blossoms but for the fact that Cherry trees did not grow here. The wind changed and Far Thel caught a different scent, a scent that stole the breath from his chest. It was the smell of home. Home. Three hundred years past and , for all he knew, destroyed. It was the scent of Elvish cooking and hearth fires burning and sweet maidens who looked at him coyly and laughed. Far Thel felt a pain in his throat so deep that he gasped and nearly fell to his knees. His eyes watered and his vision blurred. It was the smell of home. In all the years that Far Thel had traveled this road, he had always eyed this inn with suspicion. It was always well painted and in good repair. The road was well kept in front of the inn as were all the outbuildings. A large stable served to house mounts, some of them exotic but mostly horses. On one side, the innkeeper

Ah, I thought I answered you. D'oh. Dammit. Anyhow, I have to get the first scenario set. For those of you who have sent me characters, that would be Tigranes and Blank, I'll be sending you a PM for your character specific information. Until the beginning of the game, your characters won't know each other unless folks let me know ahead of time. So, if you want to be buddied with someone at start, you'll have to let me know before start. Capiche? :Eldar's menacing Wise Guy look icon:

Oh come on, don't purists like you guys hate Cliches... kind of like the worlds evil dragon is the secret head of the Catholic Church? I bet you the dragon rings your doorbell from time to time. Apparently, he's Christian.

Good God, you freaks! :Eldar's laughing maniaclly at the strange turn that's come to the thread: For what it's worth, I'd like a good RPG set in modern times. ...But why should we be forced to create a modern CRPG to expore interpersonal interaction that must undoubtedly be present between sentient beings everywhere?

The worst thing is, they were probably Christians, Hades.

Does this mean the discussion is over? hahahahaa

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Okay, to get away from the balance discussion, I have some observations from running campaigns regarding skills and combat. In all the campaigns I've run, the players devalue roleplaying and focus on combat. For most of the players I've met, even the ones who hold forth on the vlaue of role-playing and a well written campaign, combat is the thing. Characters who add more to non-combat situations tend to be considered weaker, the ability to reap significant benefits to the party outside of combat notwithstanding. Players value combat. Now, I've managed to get players to pay attention to skills, especially since there's a substantial payoff for having a skilled player, from thief to mage, in the party. I've made sure to give players a chance to express their characters in a way they find fun as an individual and as part of the group. Even so, the folks who reap those substantial benefits by using skills and roleplaying will sometimes complain about how they don't add to combat. This is even true when they provide buffs or cast spells that make combat significantly easier for the main combatant. For all of the possibilities, a lot of folks still look at DnD as a "combat" game. Now, folks still like to play a variety of classes, that's not the problem. They know that, while they can achieve a variety of goals, they'll probably miss something unless they have a good mix. Hell, they'll probably miss some stuff no matter what. That's just the way it works. So, I have rogues, mages, clerics, fighters, etc in the party. Nevertheless, the players still tend to overlook their worth outside of combat, however, and I just don't know why. Intellectually they know they're vital to the group, but the guy bringing down the game gets the bragging rights, although his strength was buffed, his combat roles were augmented, his health was healed, and his weapons were enchanted by ohter members of the party.

Have you actually played it?

This is a character someone has already submitted to me. It's a good example of what I'd like to see. Please get your character to me today if possible. It will make it much easier. Also, has anyone decided where we'll meet and what we'll use? I assume it's irc. We can name the channel "Obsidian RPG" if we want or some other similar name.

Maybe it's the ammo thing I'm remembering. I know you argued with Sawyer about something about balance in IWD2 on the Interplay boards. I'll have myself checked for Alzheimers. I just hope I can remember. I'll also set up a fund for those ADnD purist. That sounds like an aweful skin affliction they have. :Eldar's looking sympathetic to the poor ADnD crazies icon:

Why should your experience be any more of a yardstick than my own. Granted, I don't play in pws. I haven't played NWN for what... years now? ...But I did cite the experiences of other folks playing NWN and I was in their presence during those experiences. As far as PnP goes, I've probably played as much DnD as anyone here and clerics aren't over represented as a class choice. However, in reality, I've suspected that, even though it makes for a good argument, we are more or less at the same place in terms of balance. I can even remember arguing the opposite side with you a while back when you said Sawyer was too concerned with balance. *shrug* The clerics in 3edition are more balanced, and I applaud WotC for balancing them. ...But folks still played other classes even in 2nd edition. As far as being convinced by anything, what's the basis of our disagreement? That we need balance? No, we've agreed. That balance is the only, or even the primary, consideration? No, we agree. How much balance we need? We can't agree. We have not assertained, nor have we attempted to assertain, how much is enough.

Tigranes: Yes, you can put your attributes to whatever value you desire. In PCGen, you set your attributes to the desired point and then the program automatically adjusts your score based on your race. So, your initial set would work just fine assuming it adds up to 70 points.

Speaking of keeping allies alive, I went to a tough spot with three people. One of my allies died right away. Of the other two, I suspect one could not die and the other was a disposable guard. Whenever I talked to him, he said, "I don't think we're going to make it out of here alive." I swore I'd keep him alive and spent the rest of the time making sure he got out carrying his shield.

"we DID note that the fact that everybody can't be made happy meant that balance concerns deserved LESS developer effort..." Nope. No more nor less effort than it deserved in the first place. Here's a thought about the cleric: if folk's first character dies within hours and they switch to a cleric, then the problem isn't with the cleric. I accept your anecdotal evidence without reservation but you've drawn the wrong conclussions from it. After the non-cleric second try goes down in flames, even more people went with cleric? That's a balance issue, alright, but not on the cleric's part. Why is it so hard to keep other classes alive? NWN was supposed to be all about the ability to play a single character, no matter what. Even though Dungeons and Dragons is clearly party based, NWN worked everything so that a character of any type could make it through the packaged campaign. The whole thing was unbalanced. Then some persistent world comes along and who the hell knows what sort of home brew they've got cooking. There's no telling what sort of mods the world had in place. Now, I have a friend who played NWN. He went to a couple different persistent worlds. Always played a paladin and always named him Erlan Starr. Ol' Elran Starr managed to make out alright for himself. In fact, in one place, I think it was some sort of Lord of the Rings themed world, this friend convinced another friend while we were all over visiting him, to create a character and try this LotR world. Well, some different, non-cleric character comes along and kills this ranger that Greg creates and Mike pulls out ol' Erlan Starr and tracks down the guy who killed Greg's character. The upshot? nobody was playing a cleric. Mike's character was plenty powerful enough to take care of himself. Anyhow, it's all good.

No, no. We're in different conversations. You must equate the statement, "You can't please everyone" to mean "You can't please everyone and therefore you shouldn't try to please anyone." Nothing wrong with my language comprehension. How about this, "you can't please everyone, so you should only attribute as much importance to game balance as it deserves." Sure, create some balance, but don't sacrifice everything on the altar of balance. There is a balance in seeking balance and that's what the developers should find. Moreover, you've forgotten all about the poor cleric, it seems. Don't turn a cold shoulder on the guy, since he was once the star of our little show. Why have the other classes remained popular even though the cleric is so clearly "overpowered?"

What are you on about? I said that they couldn't please everyone. They can make balance the primary concern, but there will be a sizeable number of folks who will be dissatisfied. What I didn't say is that the need for balance was diminished. In fact, through all our discussion, I attribute about as much importance to balance as I did in the first place. I am a bit confused as to the whole Oblivion discussion. Kind of odd since I'm the one who mentioned it in the first place. I guess the point is that Bethesda obviously made balancing the player and the environment a priority, but it didn't meet with universal approval anyhow. Maybe I'm just starting to break free of SS's hold on me. :Eldar's fighting against the scourge that is Shadowstrider's mind control icon: Anyhow, what about the original point? Most folks I know think the cleric is overpowered in DnD. That hasn't prevented folks playing other classes. In realistic terms, either you or Sawyer could probably build a better character than me, even though I've been playing as long as you and longer than Sawyer. *shrug* I think I'm older than Sawyer. At any rate, I'd still have fun in a campaign because there will almost certainly be something for my pathetic mage to do, no matter how you build your character. The game will be fun, even if it's somewhat imbalanced.

Okay, the group dynamic will probably be good. This is an IRC game, which means I

I'm self-centered by my very nature. I think every comment is aimed at me. Or at any rate I figured I'd just take the comment on just in case. Anyhow, I'll make a bet. Folks will be online complaining about how NWN2 is too tough, easy, or alternatingly tough and easy. Oblivion uses a scaling system to create balance between the character and the environment. Even the auto scaling measure failed to make the game balanced enough for some folks. On the other hand, some folks are angry because the game is too balanced as the character goes from area to area. I don't know if I'm possessed by Shadowstrider or not. I don't think so.

"oh, and for you clowns who says balance not matter..." Seems to me like you were getting your licks in with the hyperbole stick yourself, Gromnir. ...But that's not the point. I didn't think that you thought nothing else mattered. What I did think is that you attributed a greater significance to balance than it deserved. I've said, from the get go, that balance should be a concern. Some classes will be more "powerful" than others in NWN2. Some classes were more "powerful" than others in NWN. The revolves around where more powerful translates to "too powerful." I stand by my comment that the ability to build a powerful character shouldn't kill the game. According to a lot of folks, Clerics have been overpowered for some time. ...And yet, having run games that whole time, players still play other classes. Players still have fun in the game, unbalanced as it is. By the way, I thought scaled encounters really had more to do with balancing the character to his environment. Oblivion is undoubtedly unbalanced when judging different characters, and yet even folks with weaker builds still enjoy the game and most of the complaints I've heard have centered on the writing. Hell, after that, most folks aren't complaining that it lacks balance nearly so much as specific gameplay mechanics such as the dialogue and lockpicking mini-games. So, we both think balance is part of the design. We just don't agree on where the balance with balance should be. Frankly, on the balance, I think we're probably closer than it seems, but I figure we can just argue over it for a while anyhow. Miller's Crossing is indeed a great film. It's no surprise that Sawyer liked it. It was quite reserved, I thought, if not subdued.

Deadly Nightshade and Blank are more than welcome to both Friday and Saturday. Having already cleared my schedule this Saturday, I might be there also.

There's no way Obsidian will create a DnD game where someone can't make an overpowered character. It's just not going to happen. Sure, keep an eye on balance. That's why I said that the design team for a CRPG needed to keep the characters more or less balanced. However, it's not the most important attribute. In fact, NWN was not balanced between the character classes. NWN2 will not be balanced between the character classes. That's because Dungeons and Dragons is not balanced between the character clases. So, try to even the field as best as possible, but don't think that game-balance is a single issue salve for what ails you. It ain't true. Oblivion's scaled encounters, anyone? On the other hand, I agree that the developers should not rely on player restraint. Players should not need restraint when playing a CRPG. That's why balance is part of the equation, even if it is not the whole of it. Players should look for better ways to win. Players should find the exploits and build the best characters they can and look for the best items. Sure, the design team must keep play balance in rein, even though that might be a bit paternalistic. It's still legit. The bad idea is to pretend that balance surpasses all other areas of design. The really bad idea is to think that you can take WotC's licensed game and make balance the main concern when it was clearly not a concern for WotC when they developed it in the first place. In PnP, the game is much more party driven. The people who dominate most in PnP games I've played have been the ones who take charge of the party. Now, it's true that folks don't want to be the lackey to the Golden Haired Savior, but combat plays a smaller role in a PnP game. At least in the ones I've played. So make it harder for someone to make the uber killing machine of death who needs no help or succor, but I've been hearing about how clerics are overpowered in DnD over many years and through different editions. So, keep balance, but don't fool yourself. It takes more than balance to make a fun game and the ability to create a powerful character shouldn't gimp the game.

Oh my goodness, a Torn reference. That's something you don't see often these days.