E_Motion

The primary thought here is somewhat different than the "conceit" outlined above. The goal is to force each opposite to actually take on characteristics of their opposite, and subsequently return to their original orientation with a different, hopefully enlightened, view of themselves. A plot where the opposites are forced to work together is a good vehicle to accomplish that. But its all quite theoretical at any rate. **********************************

I suspect this is all a moot point since the liklihood that any developer will take anything from these threads, much less a major plot structure, is miniscule IMO. Be that as it may, let me say a couple things. I think I see where you're coming from - having to work with the enemy isn't novel. The truth is that most themes or plots aren't completely novel; the quality is found in the actual implementation. For example, Victor Hugo's Les Miserables has essentially the same plot as The Fugitive (TV series or the movie). Yet Hugo's implementation is so overwhelmingly excellent, it is difficult to even compare his work to others with similar plots. It would be most surprising to find that He Man/Skelator, or GI Joe cartoons implemented any plot in a meaningful manner given the targeted audience ages, and advertising constraints of the media (Sat. morning cartoons). There is at least one quality implementation of a "work with the enemy" plot; a movie with Sidney Poitier (I think) involving two escaped prison inmates, one black and one white, who are chained together at the time they escape, and hate each other, but must learn to work together to survive. What I proposed is different in that the addition of force sight would require a temporary, but real, change in the characters. At any rate, thx for taking the time to read what I wrote.

You make a good point. It may be possible to get Lucas' approval if the actions resulting in the slight DS orientation of the LS character were carefully chosen so as not to be abhorent to the LS philosophy. Identifying such "opposite but not abhorent" actions could be part of the "puzzle" of plot stages 4 and 5, particularly as viewed by the character who is being changed. The final plot part ought to satisfy Lucas on the basis of "All's well that ends well". Again though, you make a very good point that would need be kept constantly in mind as the actual plot was developed. ***********************

==>Shryke: Thx for the question. Here's one possible implementation. Plot stage 1 - A new enemy appears threatening both Jedi and Sith. The enemy is shown separately as viewed by the Jedi and as viewed by the Sith. Plot stage 2 - A Jedi and a Sith are battling the new enemy at a location on a planet that is neither strongly LS or DS. Each is nearly defeated and forced to retreat. They find themselves together, forced to develop a strategy to defeat the common enemy. They realize that defeating the enemy will require certain items or actions that can only be provided by existing Sith worlds, and certain items or actions that can only be provided by existing Jedi worlds. The Jedi and Sith characters agree to work together to accomplish their goals, but conclude that hatred between Sith and Jedi runs so deep that they cannot reveal to either culture what they are actually doing. As they formulate their plan to visit the first of the two worlds [Jedi or Sith] they realize that the actual DS orientation of the Sith cannot be hidden from the "force sight" of the Jedi in the Jedi world, and the actual LS orientation of the Jedi cannot be hidden from the "force sight" of the Sith in the Sith world. Plot Stage 3- They devise a plan to teach their opposite how to become more of their LS/DS opposite using encounters with NPC's on an independent world to adjust the orientation of one of them before visiting the other's world [A red or silver glow of each character could be shown during this learning period]. Via a series of encounters on the independent world, one character becomes enough like their opposite to adjust their own orientation just slightly past neutral to the orientation of the other. Plot Stage 4 - The Sith and modified Jedi (or Jedi and modified Sith) then go to the Sith world (or to the Jedi world in the second case) and accomplish that part of their plan. The modified character must remain modified during this time to exist on their opposite world. The two must also work together, despite various arguments, to win several battles on the first world. Plot Stage 5 - Repeat stages 3 and 4 for the other character. Plot Stage 6

(w00t) (w00t) (w00t) ***********************

Don

Exile: Yeah, this bastard stole my wallet when I was unconscious. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh. Love it.

Well it is great to see another great designer here. The cRPG is a wonderful art form in my book - one that has occupied prolly far too many hours of my life - but I wouldn't take one of them back. Gawd and it has been great to see how games have changed over the years. And how real some of the worlds have become. And when every now and then comes along a game that exceeds anything you expected... ************************

Seconding Metadigital's request and pledge, I too would promise to maintain in the strictest confidence any details not revealed here.

Looks like Obsidian is picking up a well known game designer from Midway, and it looks to be good news for Obsidian. :D :D :D Details here: http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?sid=a1415e...fd69cef0c#40236

np. It happens to all of us.

I didn't include it, because I just looked at their website. Although apparently Battlefront (by Pandemic) was "in house" so they must be an in-house development team...so Battlefront II is probably the in house game they are speaking of. Probably makes sense, because I heard Battlefront had huge sales. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not quite sure what you're trying to say, but SW Battlefront and Indiana Jones are quite different. ****************************

Just saw your edited update here. You missed at least one game being internally developed at LA. See the following report dated "05/18/05 04:51 PM PST" stating, "... Developed internally by LucasArts, the yet-to-be-named Indiana Jones game promises the expected action and adventure in every nook and cranny of the world..." (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/18/news_6125622.html). Chances are that other games, not yet publicly announced, are also in the pipeline. ********************************************************************

Here's a more detailed report of LA's restructuring as a result of new management: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/08/13/news_6104775.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This articles is dated August 2004: http://bigkid.com.au/2004/08/13/lucasarts-layoffs/ This article is dated July 14, 2005: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/08/13/news_6104775.html If you read the July 14, 2005 article, it would appear they are restructuring, and that means it will take time to get settled. Usually it takes six months for a department to settle, have palimanary meetings, and so forth. Otherwords, there will not be a KotOR II patch in the near future. There is a slim chance that they will release a KotOR II patch. Quote from article: They don't have the man power to pull it off, and they have moved onto other things. Like I said in a previous post, the patch is not going to be released. It is a loss cause... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just to clarify, the GameSpot article is dated August 2004 (see the end of the article; "By Curt Feldman -- GameSpot POSTED: 08/13/04 12:25 PM PST")

I agree with everything you said. But your hopes for the future will never be realized if Obsidian ignores the problems of the present. I do honestly hope that Obsidian's future products prove worthy of your and many other people's trust.

Here's a more detailed report of LA's restructuring as a result of new management: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/08/13/news_6104775.html I answered your question about an appropriate response above: "One appropriate response to the question 'Will there be a KotOR III', assuming that LA is responsible for the fact that KotOR II is unfinished and that its bugs remain unpatched, might be 'You will have to ask LucasArts.'" "My logic" that we judge people by the products they produce isn't my logic; its just the way things are. The products you refrence were produced by teams and management different than Obsidian's teams and management. I hope that Obsidian equals or exceeds the previous games of its founders; but if that happens it will be because Obsidian decides to settle for nothing less than the best they are capable of. Either that hasn't happened yet, or the founders aren't as talented as you believe.

Look, to all of you that want to defend Obsidian, I respect your loyalty and your hopes for a future great game. But the fact of the matter is 'great is as great does', and at this point Obsidian hasn't earned your valuable loyalty. I hope that Obsidian's future products and business practices prove to be worthy of your trust.

I saw no reports that even suggested LA closed down "all... of their in house development".

Feargus Urquhart, Chris Parker, Darren Monahan, Chris Avellone and Chris Jones founded Obsidian. Look up their resumes some time and tell me they don't put out quality products. These guys have been in the industy a very long time, and put out some of the best games of all time. Chris Avellone was the lead designer on Planescape: Torment, which some have called the greatest PC game of all time. When they were paired up with a publisher who practically went under at a bad time, they were forced to release a product early. Lucas said LucasArts was actually in debt, and that's why they are being folded back under the arm of ILM, and their offices closed down. You may have missed when LucasArts laid all of their staff off in September. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Obsidian founders were members of teams that released good products. Sadly, Obsidian's current product is not one of the "best games of all time"; just maybe some of the other members of the teams that produced those prior games had something to do with the quality of the games. I read about the September layoffs by LA but saw nothing that indicated the layoffs represented "all of their staff" or that LA "practically went under".

One appropriate response to the question"Will there be a KotOR III", assuming that LA is responsible for the fact that KotOR II is unfinished and that its bugs remain unpatched, might be "You will have to ask LucasArts." Honestly, this isn't real complicated. ********************

It's one thing to "bad mouth" an investor; quite another to volunteer that you're ready to work with an investor again, if indeed that investor caused you to release a mediocre work product, and is responsible for your failure to fix the product. **********************

The qualtity of any company's employees is reflected in the company's product. KotOR II is not a top notch product by anyone's standard. You can rationalize all you want. Obsidian will neither keep nor attract high quality personnel, or investors, based on their current business practices.

One who aids and abets a crook is also a crook; pure and simple. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Clearly you have no business sense. Lets see how many people support your product when you bad mouth the financial investors. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Look at that interview again. He is actively soliciting work from LA, in response to a question that merely asked "Will be there be a KotOR III". Despite what you think, sharp or unethical business practices do not reflect good business sense. In the long run, every business reaps what it sows. When you abuse the trust of the consumer, you're walking down a losing path. Finantial investors take into account a company's history of consumer relations. And top notch employees don't stay long with businesses that don't produce top notch products. *******************