E_Motion

After endlessly thrashing this over and over in my head, I've finally come to believe that this wouldn't be a problem at all, except for all the broken quests, unfinished dialogs, and rushed ending. It only takes a few times of wondering whether I missed something - only to find that something was left out - at least for me - to change how I would otherwise look at the whole picture. Without all the other problems, this would have fit nicely. By the time of the Cameo, we know or suspect that both Atrias and Kreia were using the Exile, and leaking the fact of the Exile's and/or other Jedi's existence for their own purposes. So Bastila's existence just builds a stronger case of betrayal, and could have contributed to a more intense story line. But as it was, the questions raised in the cameo weren't incorporated into the ending, leaving it as most likely just another loose, or perhaps contradictory, thread. At the LS ending, one choice of questions is, "Why me?" Kreia's answer is to the effect of "Were you expecting some revelation?" -- Well honestly, I was expecting a lot more of a wrap-up than I got.

There is one thing about that cameo -- Bastila doesn't appear until after Exile leaves the room. So part of the message of the cameo is that Bastila is in hiding. Given that the Sith actually found Exile only due to Atrias' efforts to use Exile as a pawn; only found Atrias because of Kreia's intervention; and never located most of the remaining Jedi Council; perhaps it was enough that Bastila's whereabouts were carefully guarded.

Yep. It's quite a problem. The only possible explanation I could think of was that maybe, just maybe she had abandonded the Jedi order altogether. But if so, it was something that should have been said or implicit according to the circumstances of her cameo.

Thanks Cathari - now many of the loose ends actually make some sense. Funny thing; now the whole "wound in the force" idea is also beginning to make sense in a 'life mimics art mimics life ...' sort of way. As I finally grasp the ending that should have been, I am also beginning to grasp another truth - KotOR 2 is filled with echos. The broken quests and unfinished dialogs are echos in the force. Echos of a sacrifice some believed necessary. Echos of a sacrifice that collapsed the world of KotOR 2, much like the sacrifice wrought by the mass shadow generator that collapsed the planet of Malacor V. The real "wound in the force" is the sacrificed game ending; an ending that might have made KotOR 2 a true contender among all RPGs, both past and yet to come. And so we have a wound within a wound, and echos within echos. Those echos refuse to be silenced, and even now continue ringing into the future.

"E_Motion... you should read everything in the topic.. BEFORE your jump into defending some one that is clearly in the wrong... I know about that known problem you are talking about... but is nothing to do with SP problems.." I not only read the complete topic; I also THOUGHT about what was said. Your suggestion that SP's problem is unrelated to the known problem is ridiculous ... it's the IDENTICAL problem occurring in the IDENTICAL place.

-----> Panther ".... it's only your fault that you have problems.. nothing to do with the game." Uhh -- Hello??? --- did you miss the fact that this is a known problem with the game? " just play the game the normal way.. and if you can't.. you should stop playing computer games mate..." Here's an even better solution Panther. Grow up; (really, you aren't the be all, end all of computer games) and; stop posting in forums if you have nothing helpful to add.

Geeze - can't believe all the preaching about cheats - just forgetaboudem! I recall that when I beat those guys (on the ship) one or more of the last ones were using stealth -- particularly in the pilot's area. Perhaps the bug is that the "stealth" wasn't turned off -- one last bad guy is still on the ship and you need to kill him before the crew comes back (in the normal version, there is no crew untill you kill all of the bad guys). So maybe if you edit your awareness way up, or use the special force seeing power and check the ship out carefully one more time, you'll find a bad guy you missed. May the force be with you!

Not sure why this thread is in "spoilers" ... But having said that ... It's just my opinion, but I think the prohibition against love (in the male/female sexual relationship sense) is a fatal flaw in any code, including the 'conventional' Jedi code. Human sexuality is among the strongest of forces that influence and impact every human. One needs only to look at the past and present of the Roman Catholic church to see that repression of normal human sexuality inevitably results in the generation of corrupted sexuality. The same is equally apparent in figureheads of protestant christian churches who take an extreme view of human sexuality. Sexuality can no more be repressed than "the force" itself. An early comment in this thread referenced Buddaism; nevertheless, Budda, himself, spent many of his own early years learning that extremes were not the path of enlightenment. It is true that sex can used to corrupt. Again, both history and present times reveal this as a truth. But that being the case, one must ask the question; how does one best defend against sexual corruption? Is sexual starvation really the best defense? Or perhaps might it be possible that a stronger defense could be afforded by the sexual satisfaction of a loving relationship? I vote for the latter. As to the views that the life or needs of a loved one would cause conflicts of interest that would interfere with a Jedi's decisions on justice or taking appropriate actions, IMO those views reflect only the shallowest understanding of the commitments and strengths of good people. In the present game, itself, it is clear that Visas wants the Exile to place the needs of the galaxy before her own life. Yet she loves the Exile. And isn't it quite possible that such love could increase the capability of anyone, including Jedi, to accomplish the greatest amount of good? Well, at any rate, that's how I see it.

Hey ShadowPaladin (like your name, particularly the V1.0 aspect; query whether you get to be 'patched' as time goes on -- there have been some times in my life when I sure could have used a 'patch' :>) ) Agree with your thoughts on the Leviathan. And see your point about the Temple -- I too had embraced the redemption and felt sick that, Bastila. who had brought me there, now seemed to be lost -- (I will admit however that my strong lightside, high integrity, character wasn't completley immune to Bastila's darkside perfume, her promises of unrelenting passion responsive to my desires ... -- well I can't say that temptation passed by unnoticed.) Interesting point you make about the tanks -- I was able to destroy them -- but I didn't even see that as a possibility the first time around on that battle. Those tanks were probably too sudden -- you weren't prepared to deal with them, and I didn't know I could. As to your comment on Bioware, I believe they have done good work -- so I wouldn't go so far as to call the artificialities "cheese" -- but I do see your point -- I guess I'd say that the lure of an easy quick fix is always there; a darkside-like choice of paths. The consequences of taking that path can be dire ... even in the real world. Regards.

ShadowPaladin -- I see your point about the effects of the darkside -- must confess that I don't have the Star Wars/Jedi knowledge and history that many who play this game seem to have. But btw, that's another great strength of the game IMO -- you don't have to have intimate Star Wars history to play and love the game -- indeed I was reluctant to start the game at first thinking it might be too 'genre-specific' (for lack of a better word) -- but the game creators completely avoided that. Back to your point, which is well taken -- I probably didn't express my difficulty with the Temple scene very well; or perhaps not correctly. And I'm not sure if I actually can -- but let me go at it from another direction. In retrospect, I think the final Temple scene gives an artificial feel -- and I believe the reason is that the game creators needed a device to move to the next part of the game. That aspect overwhelmed the character development/interactivity/believability that had been so carefully (and successfully) established. Once we reach the Star Forge, the darkisde Bastila miraculously regains depth, and she is once again influenceable -- back in character with the rest of the game. So I guess my point is that there is a danger in prescripted aspects of any story -- in that the author/creator can have such a strong need to advance the plot in a specific direction, that it becomes easy to lose sight of the overall impact on the character. And the difficulty of the task shouldn't be underestimated -- its extremely hard for any author. But the net result is generally seen in the difference between a story that seems to be real -- almost alive -- so that, at the end of the book, or movie, or game -- one is left with experience of a whole, complete experience, a character that was a real person. And in this case, the KOTOR authors achieved a sucess level with Bastila (I obviously played as a male) well beyond anything I've ever seen in the gaming world -- Its amazing just how 'real' this character is to people -- however the character in the Temple final scene was at that point just too fixed, a still life painting or sculpture, out of character with the rest of the game. Perhaps this clarifies my incomplete thoughts. But how did you react to the final Temple scene when you played -- and in your retrospective of the quality of the KOTOR experience?

Hope that you are working on a KOTOR2. The query is -- how did the game fail? Simply put, it didn't fail. Nevertheless there were things lacking that I wished were there. Let me say first that IMO KOTOR added a new dimension to RPGs, namely a well developed npc that the player can interact with. Yes, its there in other games, but not to the same extent. Take a look at the Bioware forums -- they're still analysing Bastila and Carth. And that wonderful strength spawned, at least for me, a corresponding weakness. Once you get to the end of the npc's scripted options, e.g., the Bastila romance, interaction is kaput -- gone. So here I had developed what seemed to be damned near a real relationship, and now all I get when I talk to the character is "I suggest we move on." The difficulty fixing the problem is apparent -- only so much can be scripted. Nevertheless, it seemed to me that the npc should at least be able to make comments on the task at hand -- or on the task just completed -- or where to go from here -- or something. And I agree with commenters who viewed the Temple and the Leviathan encounters as weaknesses. Those scenes, at least to some extent, may as well have been cut scenes since you couldn't influence the character -- and particularly in the case of Bastila at the Temple, her actions and personality seemed seemed completely out of character -- she was so stuck on the dark side and more importantly, she had lost all emotional depth. The ending -- I agree something was lacking. At least we should have been able to talk to the npcs about what we had done together -- what they might do in the future -- something, just something. Having said all of that, it was a great game in my view. I believe it added more options to the land of RPGs in a good way.