Gromnir

"Expansion probably went a long way too as those always increase gameplay value. " no matter how you spin it, the expansions is abberrational if you blame on brand name or company or mp... 'cause who the hell buys the expansion if they didn't actually enjoy the core game, regardless of d&d logo or bioware name... and as for the mp aspects selling the expansions... less than 10%. maybe some folks thought that mp would be super groovy when nwn were released, but how could they be tricked into buying the expansions? *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

If it is, I blame Atari for it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> am thinking that obsidian is discovering, much as bio discovered far too late, that a toolset and a solid sp oc for a d&d 3e game is lots of work. obsidian has decided that the appropriate corners to cut is on amount of content rather than quality. is just too bad that those corners had to be cut, 'cause no matter how some folks spin it, 20 hours or less is pretty damn short. also, we does note that when developers gives estimates of hours of gameplay for a crpg, they never is speaking solely of how fast people can rush through the critical path... never. HA! Good Fun! ps sorry gd, but the nwnvault stuff were included in the "less than 10%" numbers from bioware. sp downloads has been played by a very small number of people compared to total purchasers. yeah, is more people playing sp downloads than is using the toolset to create pws, but the number of folks getting anything out of nwn other than oc playage is less than 10%.

well, the thing is that nwn products continued to sell. that is meaningful to Gromnir. even if people claims that it were hype or the d&d name or even bg or bg2 that got people to buy nwn initially, peoples continued to buy nwn and nwn expansions for a good long time after the strengths and shortcomings o' nwn were being posted 'cross the web. beyond the first couple of months can we assume that people were still being tricked into buying nwn? the expansions did pretty good too. is it reasonable to assume that the duration of bioware's/atari's mass hypnosis lasted for years? HA! Good Fun!

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we also doubt we is gonna get an answer. however, josh were recently proclaiming his willingness to gives the fanbase hard truth. would not this be one of those situations wherein he coulds prove his mettle? "Except it's not easy to release a game engine with a kick butt toolset. I'm saying I'd rather the developers spend time on the toolset than fluffing an OC. " too bad you is in an incredibly small minority. is the biowarians themselves who has noted that less than 10% of all nwn purchasers used any mp aspects of nwn. now personally we likes that nwn had mp aspects, as it kept game playable long after the oc were forgotten, but for 90% or more of purchasers the toolset and mp features were a complete waste. explain to those 90% of nwn2 purchasers that the reason the nwn2 oc is so short is 'cause of the toolset. that is a tough sell. on the positive side, the nwn2 boards IS at the bio site. when the post-release poop hits the fan it will be at the bio site where the stink lingers. finally some good comes out of that move, eh? HA! Good Fun!

oh, and 'cause Gromnir has already enamored himself to the obsidian folks with our complaints, we feels it incumbent to ask how many levels can we expect to gets in nwn2? personally, we don't mind fast levels in crpgs and d&d crpgs in particular, but there is many who felt personally offended at being able to reach level 18 in nwn, an announced 60 hour game. soooooo... level ten in 20 hours? more or less? am curious. HA! Good Fun!

as fate would have it, we actually played fo after we played fo2. am not sure how many hours we got (seemed like more than 20 though... but keep in mind tht Gromnir got more than 40 from kotor2, and more than 20 from JE before we quit at halfway point,) but we were more than a little disappointed. no doubt fo were really revolutionary when it were first released, but for us it were a follo-up game... and a short and poorly balanced one at that. is one of the resosn we always list fo2 ahead of fo on our favorites lists. HA! Good Fun!

"BTW, shortest RPG that I have played was Fable on friends Xbox. 10+ hours." there is indeed some short console games. am no sure just how short fable were, but that is why Gromnir keeps noting that nwn2 will be shortest pc crpg we has seen since HoW. HA! Good Fun!

this kinda thing is why you people keep getting less from game developers and publishers. if you all complains 'bout game length after you buys it, then how much you thinks a publisher is gonna be motivated to makes longer games in the future? what motivation has you offered a publisher who knows that you is gonna buy any obsidian product regardless of your concerns? for chrissakes, even the obsidian developers is gonna tell you that game development and publishing is held hostage by the Quarterly Report mentality that pervades many industries... which is why so many games gets rushed to release just before the end of a quarter. the publishers know that half-baked game is gonna gets some negative feedback, but they would rather see the sales numbers on the qurterly report than they is concerned by negative feedback from fans who proves over and over again that they will buy shorter games and buggy games. btw, you do give us too much credit... but we wish that troika's death were our fault. when a company so woeful at the business of making games goes under, we all benefit. looks at obsidian. how many former troikanauts they got on staff? whatever talent troika had at making games has not been lost... those folks is still making games in other places, but the development company that mismangaed that talent is no longer wasting consumer or publisher dollars... which is how the gosh darned system is 'posed to work. this same damned issue cames up right after toee were released, and it were a buggy mess. Gromnir pointed out that if people really didn't wants buggy games from troika or atari or any other developer, then they should sends a message in dollars: don't buy games on day 1 of release. if peoples stoped buying games until first patch is released, then publishers and developers would work lots harder to gets less buggy games made... 'cause the lack o' initial sales would speaks loudly to publishers... and in spite of blank reservations, more than a few bis and bio and other developers agreed with us that such actions were the most likely to brings 'bout actual change. on-line petitions is useless, and emails is almost as bad. real letters gets some little better impact, but dollars speak loudest. lly reasoning is still absent. 'course even he is now admitting that there ain't no reason to expect that a shorter game will have less fluff, so there sure ain't no reason to expect that nwn2 will be better 'cause it is shorter than any pc crpg we can recalls since HoW. at the very least we can all agree that there is no reason to be encouraged by the reduction in hours. however, lly does takes the odd pov and suggests that length is a non-factor. strange. again, one of the main reasons why people still seems enamored with bg2 is simply 'cause of its size. no single tangential quest may have been as involved as even durlag's tower from totsc, but bg2 had many quasi-durlag quests that a player coulds pick and choose to do at their leisure... planar sphere and druids grove and windspear hills and unseeing eye and numerous others. reduce the number of those tangential side quests to 1 or 2 and ask if People (that is People with the big P rather than Gromnir or lly or vol or vis,) would honestly be 'membering bg2 with such fondness. am recalling a review for some soon to be released adventure game were posted at gamespot and linked to this board. the reviewer seemed to likes the game a great deal... but he noted that it should have been longer. all things being equal, size (up to a point,) is a positive attribute for a game, and while we not need a game to be 80 hours to enjoy, we thinks that there shoulds be some kinda minimum we is willing to accept from a pc crpg. personally, we is gonna set the basment at 'round 30 hours... 'cause we cant sees how a crpg can offers an intro, critical path, conclusion and tangential side-quests that is gonna satisfy with less than 30 hours of gameplay. ... also, while it probably ain't the case, Gromnir would not be surprised if ferret jumped ship just 'fore the real story of nwn2 gots out... got out just 'fore any of the taint could stick to him. reduce mp fetures to gives a bigger and more fulfilling sp campaign makes sense... but to reduce those features and makes a game that were half as long as the rushed kotor2 product that obsidian released only a little while ago? looks like one of those conspiracy theory things that kinda likes mushrooms grows best in darkness and bs, but... HA! Good Fun!

"Quality is key." well then, we is kinda getting somewhere... nope. subjective notions o' quality has gotta be taking a backseat to a bit o' unpleasant reality. BG2 were a big seller... and iwd were bis' best seller. what llyranor or Gromnir thinks of as well-remembered is not of much concern to anybody... but it seems obvious that those games did something right, no? on the bio boards BG2 is still held up as the measuring stick 'gainst which all other games is measured... in spite of fact that another bg2 is improbable nowadays given the costs of game development. regardless, your hypothesis that games will get better as they get shorter has not played out so far, and so we still cannot sees where you is finding any optimism in the realization that nwn2 will be shorter than any pc crpg in recent memory. you personally hates "fluff" and you has noted that games always gots fluff and that length not make better. fine. you can play a five hour game and be really satisfied... goodie for you... but such a recognition does not in anyway change what should be an obvious realization: that a decrease in game hours does not in any way increase the likelihood of a game having your "quality" requirement. at the opposite end of the spectrum, a game likes oblivion shows that simply having lots of content IS a selling point for many. lone wolf were the one who told us that he enjoyed playing oblivion, in part, simply to see all the neato scenery. get more loot and do more quests... extend the time playing in a gameworld one likes... clearly these things makes a game memorable to many. "It's not a matter of "we didn't bitch enough, so they did it anyway" it's costs and what can be done within a certain amount of time and with a certain amount of cash. It's not like these guys aren't trying their damndest to give us a strong product...I mean, it's a reflection of themselves...so why not make it the best as can be?" how does unbridled optimism make it "the best as can be?" and yeah, a little more b*&^%$#@ & moaning may help. such things coupled with bad sales is exactly the reason we got Trials of the Luremaster after the HoW debacle... though we never actually played it. "How does directy attacking the developer help?" it probaly doesn't... but we did not suggest such a thing. please go back and review our advice. in any event, telling the developers that a 20 hour game is okie dokie with you when you actually want a longer game sure as hell ain't gonna help. 'course, as we keeps pointing out over and over again, more important than vocal criticism is your purchasing behavior. "I disagree with the notion that games have gotten shorter and shorter." okie dokie HA! Good Fun!

The only non-jokey figures I'll give about game length prior to release will be based on my own experience. I haven't played through NWN2 legitimately from start to finish, so I won't give any estimation at all, nor comment on the veracity of Feargus' estimation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not after the nightmare that were HoW you won't. "Oh, but heeding Grom's advice... U HAD BETT@R MAKE THE BEST GAME EVA! OR I WILL NEVER BUY ONE OF YO GAMES UH-GEN!11! IT HAS TO BE REAL GOOD, LIKE THE COOLZEST!" good for you... but as we mentioned, your actions will be speaking much louder. sarcasm on the boards mean far less then actual sales... so if you really want games longer than 20 hours, then don't buy the game if you really wanna heed our advice. HA! Good Fun!

bg2 is largely memorable 'cause there was so much to do. hypothetical: cut bg2 down to 20 hours worth o' gameplay. takes the best 2 or 3 quests from bg2 and then add ins a necessary intro and conclusion. then consider if it would be well remebered. iwd were how long? 40 hours. cut in half so that we just finishes dragon's eye... imagine that empty feeling as you wonder why in the hell you paid $40 bucks for THAT. a crpg w/o side-quests is more of an adventure game than anything else, and we has a hard time considering the kinda game that has an intro with a tutorial, a compelling main story/critical path quest, conclusion & more than a small handful of tangential sidequests at 20 hours. HA! Good Fun!

... "ALWAYS" again we comes back to your word. 120 hour games. 80 hour games. 60 hours... 40... now 20? "ALWAYS." games has gotten shorter and shorter and they still gots your fluff. you noticed any improvement as they gets shorter? if nwn2 has fluff will your reasoning then require a reduction to 10? bah. HA! Good Fun!

"Then again, I don't remember any of the CRPGs have '40-60 hrs' worth of story, or having so much memorable gameplay to fill up that much time." not really the point is it? you already noted that crpgs "ALWAYS" has fluff. "always" were your word, not Gromnirs. you have played 40-60 hour games (fluff included,) that you did like, no? you must have, otherwise, by your own logic, you wouldn't likes any crpgs. nwn2 will be half as long as those 40 hour games with the fluff... but you got no reason to believe that the fluff has sudden vanished... so why the optimism? somebody tells you that you is getting a 20 hour game, and your response is that you didn't want no 60 hour fluff-filled game anyway? if the problem is fluff, then how does the reduction to 1/3 your noted measuring time length improves the situation? ... is some damned bad reasoning. HA! Good Fun!

What are you talking about? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> we think that it were that Tom Cruise movie... Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee : I think I'm entitled to them. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth! Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to! Kaffee: Did you order the code red? Jessep: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do. Kaffee: Did you order the code red? Jessep: You're goddamn right I did!! we think that is what he is talking 'bout... though we disagree. HA! Good Fun!

"There've ALWAYS been sections (sometimes quite large ones, too) I didn't enjoy in all CRPGs I've played," and in spite of the fact that you "ALWAYS" has seen such stuff in the past you is gonna somehow imagine that nwn2 manages to cut all that stuff out... especially as it is a D&D game which is, first and foremost, a squad-based tactical combat game. there pretty much has to be some meaningless combats if only to prepare you for the tougher ones latter on in the game. you have some rather strong evidence that game is shorter than 40 hours... by upwards of 20 hours. you got any such similar reasons to believe that obsidian has managed to revolutionize crpgs and d&d so that you not got no fluff no more? sorry, but your reasoning seems suspect. HA! Good Fun!

josh tends to be more honest than the average developer mouthpiece. it has been noted that josh may not be the most diplomatic developer, but we would prefer to hear more news from that old crank than we is to hear the deafening silence of chrisA and others. HA! Good Fun!

"In any case, I'm probably more open-minded about this "announcement" because I'm actually in favor of shorter, more condensed games. I don't want a 60-hr game with 75% spent in dungeons fighting mobs of morons." and that must mean that you don't want a 40 hour game with excellent story and compelling gameplay, right? 20 announced hours is half of 40... and announced hours tends to be inflated anyways. so tell obsidian that 20 is ok if you wish, but we thinks that you is sending the wrong message. HA! Good Fun!

am recalling that you didn't seem to like oblivion much... and keeps in mind that as is typically the case, you finished in less time than developer announced. so how long you thinks nwn2 will actually be for you? HA! Good Fun!

"Is it me, or is there an overwhelming sense of cynicism here? How about a little positivity? Would it kill you guys not to condemn design decisions until you've actually had an opportunity to sit down and play the game" if you don't wanna see more developers making shorter games, then tell them so. the fan loyalty thing is something we don't get. this is your opportunity as a consumer to speak to developers and tell 'em what you want and don't want. do you want a game you can finish in a single weekend? if so, then tell obsidian that 20 hours is good and great... but if you want more, then spit and curse and fume (w/i reason) and don't give a damned inch. fan loyalty is a stoopid and misguided notion. you not ever get a better game 'cause you tell josh or fergie or chrisA how perfect they is. you needs to be giving positive and negative criticism to be getting better games... and you gotta be willing to not buy games that seems to be going in a direction opposite of what you want. if you buy nwn2 at announced 20 hours then you is telling developers and publishers in the loudest voice possible that 20 hours is 'nuff for you... and publishers and developers will continue to shrinks games so that they not have to spend more money making. optimism is wasted. HA! Good Fun!

"That's exactly my point, which is why I'm baffled at the decision to release the game only 20 hours long." gotta admit that Gromnir is surprised. the number of mp players of nwn were far less than the sp players, so we understands why obsidian would focus more on sp applications of their sequel game. 'course we woulda' thought that such devotion and attention to sp over mp would result in a longer sp campaign than 20 hours... which is pretty much what one expects from a pc crpg expansion. maybe nwn2 is so damn amazing that 20 or fewer hours is more than enough... but it is gonna have to be pretty darn amazing. HA! Good Fun!

"Heart of Winter was crap because the content stunk. If it were twice as long, it would've been even crappier." agreed, but keeps in mind that the most frequent complaints were 'bout length rather than content... also be aware that time estimates for HoW were in the 25 hour range, and many people got far less. so how long will nwn actually be for most of us posters? 15 hours? 10? for those of you who likes oblivion, go back and sees where you were in game at 15-20 hours... and ask self if you woulda' been satisfied if game had stopped at that point. am not suggesting that a 20 hour game cannot satisfy, but we gotta note that we would be surprised if such a game did. HA! Good Fun!

sure, 'cause lots of underprivelaged children is needing an xbox 360. is all kinds of stuff we do for charity, but donating consoles and video cards is on our list of things to gives to kids right 'fore pr0n. as to how we get such stuff... well, the law racket ain't as easy as some might expect. sure, if you is a partner or associate for some big firm you can expect regular paychecks, but Gromnir tends to represent folks who got no money, and the defendants is often real good at hiding their money. winning a big award is not meaning that Gromnir gets a new porsche. instead we may get... stuff. HA! Good Fun!

ain't no fan of jade empires is Gromnir, but we will note that we had more than 20 hours invested in the game when we quit, and we weren't right at the end of the game. also, there were considerable number of quests that we simply weren't intereted in 'nuff to address, so we coulda' gotten even more hours o' gameplay out of it. am not denying that Jade Empire were relatively short... and we ain't saying that we liked it, but the 20 hour and less estimates is seeming odd to us. that being said, Gromnir recalls the last game that fergie claimed were in the 20-30 hour range. anybody recall HoW? we got a little better than 10 hours from HoW. fergie has let his fans down in the past, and we expect that the fallout from HoW were not something fergie would wanna repeat... but perhaps we is wrong. HA! Good Fun!

got an xbox 360 'bout a month ago... but we ain't hooked it up as we just ain't seen a reason to do so. as is our custom, Gromnir waited for some grateful person to purchase us a console... as we ain't never actually bought one ourself... but there has been no need to even hook it up as yet. only game we mighta' considered buying for 360 so far is oblivion, and somebody else gave us a copy of that for the pc. gots our tivo and our hd receiver and our sound sytem and our dvd player/burner all hooked up to the tv right now... and we not feels like adding 'nother bit o' hardware to the mess o' wires that we already gots monopolizing a corner of our family room would be worth the effort 'less there comes along a game we really wanna play. HA! Good Fun!