Mayama

You make the mistake of assuming that the majority thinks about exploiting in single player games the same way as you do. I did no such thing. I wrote my entire post in 1st person singular. Because that's all I care about in a single player game: ME. You care only about yourself but the dev's have to care about EVERYONE playing their game and need to find a way to please the majority. Thus the Policing you claim doesn't exist. You claim their is policing that whole discussion started with you claiming that fixing exploits equals policing, seriously. In general dev's try to fix exploits in games because it A) makes them not look good and B) a lot people dont like exploits in their games.

You make the mistake of assuming that the majority thinks about exploiting in single player games the same way as you do. I did no such thing. I wrote my entire post in 1st person singular. Because that's all I care about in a single player game: ME. You care only about yourself but the dev's have to care about EVERYONE playing their game and need to find a way to please the majority.

Because. The. Devs. Want. To. Award. Accomplishments. Not. Body. Count. Rhetorical question ensues, not to you specifically KP, but to Josh & Co, and others in favour of no-kill-xp: But that's bizarre. So the party encounters a gigantic beetle nest in a forest, and these beetles are new to them (it gets updated in that PoE bestiary). After much ado, they manage to vanquish the beasts (which charged them, not the other way round), and the biggest beetle even gets listed (most powerful enemy defeated), but your party ain't getting any xp for it! Hey! Wait a minute! That was an accomplishment right there! Why on earth disqualify one kind of accomplishment and have the rest of them in (because they are not living things that dies at the player's hand)? It doesn't compute, nor is it good design. It leaves me flabbergasted. Herp derp answer: Thats actually exactly how most PnP rpg's suggest on how to give XP out. Give it out when the day is over or the quest is solved. Not herp derp answer: XP as a artificial reward in rpg's and how it contradicts reality is a rabid hole that is way to deep and scary to enter it.

Many people (including me) backed this game on the perceived premise that Obsidian would have used a tried and true formula which was equally beloved by many. Instead, after the beta, I feel like I've backed an experiment (mechanics, UI, gameplay) I may like or not but; certainly, not the kind of game I hoped. Maybe I will end up enjoying this but, so far, PoE seems the kind of game I would normally wait purchasing until I can read reviews and impressions. Whom is to blame for the different expectations? Part me, I've no problem admitting this, but I'm not alone thinking the lack of XP and many other things don't make PoE really a spiritual successor of anything but a new game of its own. I don't feel easy just to "wait some months after release to see how it pans out" since I already paid in full and even something more... Their are thousands of opinions on what needs to be included in a spiritual successor. Assuming that it matches your own opinion 100% is pretty naive. Actually you can only "wait til it is released" because thats how kickstarter works, you invest money in something and hope for the best.

You make the mistake of assuming that the majority thinks about exploiting in single player games the same way as you do. Their are as many oppinions on it as their are people out their and because their is no way to satisfy everyone they can only aim at making the game as fair and challanging as they want. Its up to the dev's how to handle that, if you want a game where nobody "polices" you than make your own game.

So you think its fine if people do stuff like, sneaking through the vent tunnel getting sneak xp, running back to the start killing anyone at the normal route getting kill-xp, talking the boss out of the situation getting talk-xp and then kill him to get kill-xp again? That is what people usually do in games that give xp for every small step. PoE is not a open ended sand box game which does not care about balance. If you want to ensure that the game is always challanging on the road to victory you need to controle the ammount of xp.

Nor did I, despite my many playthroughs. Glad this issue is out of the way, then. Killing non-respawning baddies in CRPGs gets an "approved". Stun is right, though, the word "grinding" is needlessly used extensively by quest-xp-only proponents. IIRC, Josh himself used it in one of the backer updates during the KS. Weird thing is: I.t...w.a.s...n.e.v.e.r...a.n....i.s.s.u.e. As stated a million times bevor the reason why their is no kill-xp is because it makes it possible to give out the same amount of xp for every approach to solve a problem without exploiting the system. If you would give XP for every single step people could farm those and get two or three times the xp that was intended for it. Its a common problem with rpg's that have multible approaches to a problem and give xp for every step. I can understand why the dev's decided to do it this way and some month after release we will find out what people in general think about it.

That's nice. But that has nothing to do with your claim or what we were discussing. You don't have to grind in any of the IE games, yet that hasn't stopped your side from citing IE-game-grinding at every turn on this thread. It shows that grinding is optional, not a essential part of the game. I never grinded in any IE game ever, its not necessary.

Exactly its a game mechanic, you kill unit X to get Y. Thats it, nothing more. Their is no deep connection to any mythical rule of role playing games or whatever. Its a game mechanic and that means its up to the designers if it fits their vision on how they want the game to be played.

That is exactly what combat xp proponents want, we even proposed a compromise numerous amount of times as a solution. But yeah it's hard to find those posts when they are drowning in the sh1t that are your posts. It's only the quest xp guys that are all or nothing on this issue. ...and hundrets of posts pointed out that implementing such a system while at the same time making it possible that every other way of solving problems is as rewarding is very hard.

Its not policing the game its making a game actually challenging, it really contradicts with how most of the pro-xp people want to be viewed. Most of them present themself as really hardcore players and dont want ****ty casual stuff in their games, etc etc bla bla. At the same time they want ways to exploit the game to make it easier.

Oh no it's not. PS:T is the most attribute-dependent game ever created. And how do you raise your attributes? By leveling. And how do you level? By gaining XP. And how can you gain XP fast in PS:T? 1) By killing the endlessly respawning Abishai in the hive. 2) By making endless runs through Undersigil 3) By setting the modron cube to hard and clearing it...over and over and over And if you haven't already raised all your attributes to 25 by the time you've reached the Pillar of Skulls, you can, of course, grind Baator as long as you wish. Everything there respawns upon map transition. Like I said I played through it two times and didnt have any problem finishing it without grinding once. You dont need max stats to finish the game, theirs no reason to grind exept making the game even easier than it is.

The part where the solution is not to implement kill XP but find an equally rewarding way for people that explore before bothering with quests?! You really think that the majority of "pro-kill-xp" players is interested in something like that? Just read through those threads. You quickly find out that its not a discussion about logic and game mechanics its about personal preference, or with other words they just want it. Theirs no logical argument for it, just go on and read through it. All their so called negative side effects that will accour when you remove kill-xp cant be proven because their is zero way to prove it. Its a very "religious" debate. Edit: I was actually neutral in the beginning and didnt really care how the game gives out XP but the fanticism and anger really pissed me off, especially because they act like they are some kind of spokesperson for a large silent majority. I asked some of my steam friends yesterday what they want from PoE and most of them dont really care as long as its fun to play. Its just a very vocal minority, that wants to get its way by force.

No you are confuse two things here. No one has a problem with people expressing their oppinion. They have a problem with people constantly informing them about their point of view at every possible chance. You say it once, everyone now knows your point of view and everything is fine. If they do not response after the third time, well their might be the possibility that they do not give a **** about it. Grow up and live with it.

Interesting fact: You can grind trash mobs for XP in Planescape: Torment. In fact you can do it more than in Icewind dale and Baldurs Gate combined. Everything endlessly respawns in PS:T. Remember? PS:T even gives you a portable dungeon you can carry around in your inventory. Anytime the urge to grind and grind for XP takes you, you can simply enter that dungeon and fight the endlessly respawning modrons for 4000xp each. Forever. You know that grinding in PS:T is useless? It gives you nothing because fighting was so easy in this game. It was a sidenote, PS:T was basicaly a adventure game with some added rpg stuff.

Everything the OP wrote was writen a bazillion times in all those kill-xp threads.

Oh good someone made a new kill-xp thread, the current one is almost at the post limit. Nice to have farseeing forum members that make a new one or else people might panic when they realize that their is no thread left in which they can post.

So you basicaly saying, my strategy that worked in game A doesnt work in game B. That means game B must be broken because I am not willing to adapt in any way to a different system. I also think it breaks real life logic if I try to spread out hits to get my people through a fight because in reality one guy usually trys to get hit as much as possible while everyone else does not get hit once. It also breaks game logics because I highly insist that the logic and mechanic's of game A are the epitome of gaming, basicaly a law so everything that does not use equal rules is therefore wrong and illogical. I almost forgot to mention it does also reward bad play because any type of gameplay that differs from what I personaly like is bad. Seriously, people and arguments on this forum sometimes... Also you need to rest way less often than in BG, if you **** up and lose tons of stamina because you couldnt controle the flow of the battle, well you get punished for it.

Ever thought about the fact that they quoted planescape torment way more often than baldurs gate1/2 and icewind dale1/2 combined?

That basicly, again, forces meta on top of you. You can't know what's behind the next corner unless told so by NPCs. Also, higher difficulty levels are a thing. Ok I seriously start to question the skill level of people here on the forum. You can usually clear every map in the beta with one rest on easy, normal and hard. If you for example kill the stone beetles bevor the wood beetles than the problem is the player not the system. Their are so many people here asking for changes because they dont want to think or adapt. Rest spamming like in any IE title removed so much tactic from the game because their was zero resource management involved. You cant rest spam in PoE so adapt and learn.

If you need to rest after every second battle you do something wrong, once per map is usually enough if you know how to deal with the enemies you encounter.

Well, that's why usually I'm more focused on (and like more) overall strategy. This means I'll take great care with preparation, character synergy, items they wear and overall battle plan with a couple variants for specific situations and then let things run once battle is actually engaged. In IE, that meant using various scripts (especially more advanced ones from mods) and then, mostly, let things run once actually in a battle, with only very small surgical actions from my part when needed but not so much twitchy clicks every half a second and whatnot. Legitimate tactics, I find, usually end up exploiting a particular flaw with the game, even mildly, and usually do in very hands on manners (lots of direct commands during battle, second by second plays, etc). For example, range kitting or baiting, pre-igniting with heavy AEs, pre-buffing short term duration buffs just before engaging, etc. It all comes down to personal preference of course, many people love being very hands on during battles but I think it's better, overall, to plan a good AI to respond to strategies like I described (something really missing usually are NPC groups AI cohesion, rather than multiple individual AIs), than to try and block people actively using tactics and being very hands on because that not only causes frustration for them (via artificial limitations), but it's also impossible to do unless you lock everything down and put battles in their own very controlled bubble (bit like locking combat, etc). You should play the original final fantasy tactics + rebalance mod. Its one of the most hardcore rpg games ever created. Its unplayable if you didnt memorize the mechanics perfectly. But beside that it has also one of the nasitest AI's in any rpg. It abuses everything that a player could do to the max.

Maybee its just because he is pissed about the constant whine. The butthurt starts to really reach critical mass, the whine about a (of course) buggy beta that only shows a small part of the whole game is seriously over the top by now. More or less 10 people here do nothing else than constantly whine in every thread how much they hate the game. Why are they even here if all they do is telling everyone how ****ty everything is? Zero constructive help just crying like a baby. Do they do that in real life too? Bitching for 10 hours because they got the wrong fires to their steak? The 50 dollars or whatever they donated to the kickstarter campaing do not entitle them to demand anything. Its a goddamn game do you have zero other interests in live so everything depends on this beeing exactly what you want? Do they think that constantly repeating themself will make people listen? Usually it does the opposite. Do they really think that screaming louder than anyone else makes them more important? I guess some people need a reality check, I bet that the majority of backers just wanted a nice cRPG in ISO style like they played as kids and do not give zero ****s about the details as long as its fun and the story is nice.

You are aware that he doesnt play the beta and a lot of the stuff he said does not work that way ingame from a mechanical point of view?

ToEE is the only rpg where I personaly enjoyed every encounter because combat itself was fun.