Silent Winter

I don't think that's the reason. I think it's to allow more than one approach. Getting past those beetles is only a step towards where the objective is. If killing the beetles is also an objective, then we're encouraged to kill them vs. handling it our own way (sneaking for example). One of the reasons Josh stated was that kill-xp encourages grinding - having every area give xp for killing every creature would simply bring that back. Sneaking past the enemy to get to the goal, and then going back and killing them all for the xp would make the sneak part redundant. Even if you make it just the wilderness areas (not caves/dungeons) then you're still encouraging one play-style as above. As I said, it's fine to have this as a goal if it makes sense in-world (lots of Creature-A near a settlement causing problems) but if it's everywhere then they should just have gone with kill-xp. I'm fine with unavoidable combat (and will probably engage in the avoidable combat in first playthrough too) - but mopping up every last xaurip to get the xp (which would be significant in the case of 'cleared area' xp - 11 xaurips = no xp, 12 xaurips = 200 xp) on every playthrough isn't something that should be designed into the game. Don't think it's worth chasing down the xaurips? Great, leave the poor blighters alone with their dragon ... nice dragon

Edit: first it didn't post, then it posted twice

Sure - it'd save time vs. individual enemy kill-xp - but it's still kill-xp vs. nothing for sneaking/other solutions. Again, I'd be happy for that to apply to a quest of ridding the area of a certain creature type (Like the zombie-farmland quest in BG) but if it's for every area then you're removing the design goal that was the reason for objective xp in the first place. Also, the game's been designed without kill-xp. Adding it back in would probably take too long (you'd have to le

^I agree that the char should be able to level up all at once without leaving the screen - but I don't think it'll be an issue in game since you'll only gain a level at a time. (Though maybe for PoE 2 if you start a new level 12 char and need to level up from 1). As for the level-up screen aesthetic - didn't bother me (though I'm also a fan of the zoomed in at Character Creation screen). Having said that, using something more in line with the character sheet like in BG would be fine.

Sure - but 'clearing' means killing? In which case why not just have kill-xp? It would still encourage kill-em-all for those susceptible to grinding and doesn't comply with the stated objectives of allowing different playstyles to be equally viable. I'm not saying that "Clear the area of dangerous creatures" can't be a quest in game - just that if you're going to do it for all areas, you're just back to kill-xp but delayed.

I didn't notice it when I watched - but it's an important point. You shouldn't lose a spell/ability just on select (what if you mis-click?) - it should be when it's actually used.

^or, you know, giving up the begging and buying a nice house ... then again, if begging is that lucrative...

Other than this point, which you still fail to acknowledge, -> It's not because the NPC said so, it's because the devs decided so ->you get the xp irrespective of talking to the NPC I'm starting to agree with you on this point: Since this was the stated goal of the objective-xp, it makes sense. If you're rp-ing a pc with a fear of caves (well, you may not get far in the game but bear with me) you should still be rewarded for overcoming a challenge. I'd split the xp-reward in this case betweem 'finding the cave' (which necessitates overcoming the beetles) and 'the ogre'. It'd be nice if simply 'overcome the beetles' could be handled as an objective but as others pointed out in another thread - how would you measure sneaking past the beetles? - how close would you need to get? How far beyond them? etc). (I realise this is an argument for kill-xp in regards to overcoming them through violence but it doesn't apply to other methods of dealing with them.)(Though I'll probably just fight them for what they did to Adam that time)

But then you must have a bear named Yogi

I don't think the pet can actually fight or scout - I think it's just a novelty that follows you around. It can't die so it'd be too OP to be used as even a scout. Ranger's animal companions are another matter

Yeah - xp is abstract - you can't go arguing that getting xp for quest-objectives is somehow more logical than getting it for kills in terms of better representing the learning process - they're both non-simulationist. no, you're not wrong - there's nothing wrong with the way it was done there - I'm just on board with the way things are being done here as I think it'll work out fine

Camping supplies, Yes. I guess those don't count. I guess it doesn't really matter that they're a limited resource either, and that you most certainly CAN use them all up... fighting trash mobs for no in game reason. And then lets not forget the real kick in the balls: The "objective's" Boss is in the next room. You look at your party and realize that everyone's used up their powerful per day talents and spells. Everyone's Hurt. Hey no problem, just rest. No wait, you can't. You've used up your camping supplies in your previous struggles-for-no-reason. Oops, looks like your options are limited now: 1) Backtrack to the nearest inn to get some rest (hey! didn't you say No Backtracking?) 2) Take on the Boss at half strength and without all your big guns and hope he doesn't rip your now-impotent party to shreds. 3) Pray that you can talk your way to a resolution against the boss, even though that is neither what you wanted to do, nor does it jive with your own personal roleplaying. At least if they had given you XP for your efforts against the trash mobs, the blow here wouldn't feel so....pointless. I brought them up because they do count. I was only addressing the backtracking to camp point. I agree with your concerns here and hope that Obsidian balance the availability of camping supplies to the level of difficulty. (But getting a few xp for killing the beetles would in no way appease the tedium of backtracking to the town because of it) Looking at the gameplay video of the early game (Giantbomb/IGN) it looks like camping supplies are around enough. Perhaps that's something the beta backers can have input into "It was too hard to beat with per-encounter skills / I needed to rest too often" Agreed - if it turns out to have been a bad decision, they should just hold their hands up and say "sorry, thought it'd work - fixing it in the expansion" No grudges, just make the best decision for the franchise. My apologies if I'm getting the 2 threads where we are discussing this mixed up but I thought I already addressed this point like 3 times. What happens if I'm NOT ON AN OBJECTIVE? Josh said this game will focus heavily on exploration. That means that we should be able to enter a map, and start exploring it. So NO, I'm NOT ok with losing out on XP simply because I decided to clear out that map before getting some "objective" to "go-there-and-do-this". In *my* situation, the enemies I encounter are not "in between me and any objective"....except for maybe my objective to gain combat experience by combatting them. Even if you're not on the quest given by the NPC, you get the objective rewards for dealing with it - in one of the gamescon streams, Adam went straight for the Ogre and got the XP, then backtracked to the farmer and learned about the quest and turned it in (and got a piglet ) I don't remember if he got more xp when he turned it in - anyone? (though that could be under 'exploration of the town' - if you're not talking to people, you're not adventuring right) Dairy farmer! ("How appropriate, you fight like a cow")

(Added numbers for ease of reply) 1) Clearly not since the building is bigger But as for the trees - there are lots of trees plenty big enough for the longest cross-beams - though I agree the wheel itself does seem larger than average - it's fantasy though, maybe it's powering something really tough 2)not sure about the bricks/lamps (they look ok to me) - the railing on the bridge might be a perspective thing - looks a little shorter than the guard in that pic - or Aumaua built it 3) As for the door, in a world with Aumaua, you might simply make bigger doors. Not seeing man-height grass - but some grass does grow pretty tall

I think they just didn't use it - they weren't looting anything except the quest item.

No backtracking at least, as you can now rest anywhere (provided no enemies around) as in BG - just need the camping supplies. Agree that there seems to be hard combat but I don't see it as more or more punishing than in BG. Will wait and see what the beta-backer feedback is as people can play more freely and explore more of it - if it's wall-to-wall beetles/etc in every area, then I'd be disappointed.

^ah, ok - can't get on twitter here. Will hopefully catch a stream later.

Druid? Where? What'd I miss?

So why not post that rather than asking me for more detail? I was going by averages - it's an xp-cap rather than a level cap so D&D level rates affect it

I see what you're saying - I just think that having a challenge on a map, when you can't complete any objectives without tackling that challenge in some way, makes it part of the objective. If there are 3 caves on that map and there are different quests in each one, you still need to deal with the beetles. The devs can take this into account when deciding how much xp an area's quests are worth. We're getting enough xp to level and address the challenges in dealing with things but we're not having to deal with everything the same way. I'll agree to disagree since we're going round in circles.\ (Though I do like your 'deal with the hostiles is an objective' idea)

in a per-kill xp system, yes. How many years of role-playing and DM-ing in an objective xp system to compare? And did you really award kill-xp after each dead enemy in the p'n'p games? Middle of fight? Yes, but 'viable' needn't mean 'equally viable' and so most people hunt down every last beetle on the map because they need the xp to advance. Remove that need and they're free to play the way they want - 'kill-em-all' or 'discretion is the better part of valour' or whatever.

^It could be argued that taking down/sneaking past all the beetles is a challenge in and of itself, sure. It's just that in this case the devs decided it was only a step towards the other task. The ogre isn't the objective by itself (though it is the quest) - it's just at that point (the end of the cave, after getting there) that you're awarded the XP That could also be a cool objective

^er...ok. BG 7 TOTSC 8 Better?

^you can also crop and shrink images to the right dimensions easily enough with a free program like GIMP So if you find a cool character you like on the web you can just download the pic (for personal use) and adjust it for use in PoE.

It's level 12 for the game (BG was 6-8, BG2 was up to 40 with TOB (not sure on that one)) But one level in PoE might not equal one level in D&D since it's a different system with differently powered abilities, HP etc. 12 levels should be plenty for progression of characters over this size of game though.

Dealing with the ogre, not killing the ogre, is worth xp You're not being given xp for killing things as it's not an xp-per-kill system. You're being given xp for getting to and resolving other issues. It's not because the NPC told you to - as pointed out before, you can stumble upon the cave through exploration and deal with the ogre without ever meeting the NPC in question. (I'm hoping there'll be more examples in the game of XP-rewards for doing stuff that isn't tied to a quest from an NPC - Objective-XP rather than Given-a-Quest-XP) (If there aren't, then it'll be a missed opportunity to make the objective-XP system mean something).