Hormalakh

The problem is that developer time is a limited-resource. By focusing on both at the same time, we will get two mediocre systems instead of one robust, well-designed one. It's always a give and take when it comes to a limited budget and time.

The difference comes in timing changes (resting changes the time 8 hours after all). There are also pools that are specialized for certain schools of magic as well as partial restorations (potions) - this could be used for either fully restoring lower-tier spells or randomly restoring a few higher-tier spells. The other change is that a safe rest area would allow you to constantly return to it to rest-spam. Ultimately, you can keep going back and forth to the safe rest-area to rest (this would be the case as proposed by KotC system that Josh talked about). In a locked spirit pool system, the pools are one-time use (generally, of course, you could wait several game days to pass for the pool to be replenished) and force the player to move forward in the dungeon to find the next spirit pool. Fleeing from combat and returning to a safe area is no longer an option. The way I see it with cooldowns is that, now instead of rest-spamming, we will have players wait-spamming. That removes players from immersion. You end up waiting for your level 1-3 spells to recharge before moving on. You will also very likely have players using rechargeable spells much more often than you would see higher level spells. Edit: The spirit pools would have to be one-time use for several days (or longer) to make much sense, because if they are cooldowns every 8 hours, then people can still rest-spam and reuse spirit pools. Making the spirit-pools recharge once every week or month, would generally reduce rest-spamming (you'd have to rest for one month each time you wanted to reuse a pool).

I have read Josh's proposals, and I think the lack of a resource-management challenge in-between fights is the main loss with that system. You will still have people "spam-waiting" until their cooldowns regenerate. You will also most likely see very little use of higher-level magic use except with bosses. Otherwise, you'll see mostly low-level magic use (fairly boring, if you ask me). Ultimately, though, even if wizards can use weapons, their skills are most commonly going to be directed towards magic use: weapons use would be relegated to your fighters for the main part. Otherwise there is no reason to have wizards if their magic skills are not going to be used. I believe that each class, while able to utilize non-class specialized skills (weaponry), should stick mainly to their primary class role. For the wizard, that would be magic. Edit: Even with a mixed-vancian system, I believe that a cool-down system shouldn't be the way to go. The player should have to spend resources to recharge spells. If that means instead of spirit pools, you have spirit potions, so be it. The unlimited recharge capabilities of lower-tier magic is actually more "ARPG-like" than a limited-resource like a potion or a very slowly-recharging spirirt pool.

For an example of what I'm talking about.

So I've been reading the different arguments for and against Vancian magic (sp?) and cool-down based, stamina based, and other metrics based magics. I wanted to propose another possible mechanism. I will lay out the problems as I see them, and then lay out my solution. Finally, I will try to address how this solution answers the problems as laid out. If you are not interested in reading the whole thing, look for the yellow text. The Aspects of Vancian magic (and its problems as outcomes): 1- The one-time use of memorized magic severely limits the magic-user to only using a limited number of spells per rest. This is done so as to make magic-use challenging and tactical. This is not a problem. 2- Because no player has complete knowledge of the challenges he will face in a dungeon/battle it proves difficult for the magic-user to know whether they should become involved (magically) in that particular battle. If they do, they might use up spells that may be necessary for a future battle (possibly just around the corner). Players will save even rudimentary first-level spells "for the right moment" and completely neglect one aspect of their combat choices completely. 3- However, the party is in need of a combat-ready member, and thus magic-users are relegated either to "stone-throwing duty" or heavy-magic users in parties who are "rest-spammers." This breaks the magic mechanics and side-steps the limitations put there in the first place. The Problems with "metrics-based" (cool-down/stamina/mana) magic: 1- Magic becomes more of an option for a magic user. As the risks of using magic decreases, magic-users are more likely to make this an option in combat. This is also not a problem, and is what the developers (probably) want. 2- However, the magic-user is no longer limited to a per-rest restraint, but more of a per-battle restraint. That is to say that with the end of each battle, the party can effectively wait long enough to "cool-down" the magic user so as to get into battle again. 2- This waiting time removes the player from immersion if he/she chooses to wait until the magic-user's cool-down is complete. 3- Further, because spells are (mostly) limited to a per-battle restraint, the management of spells over a series of battles no longer plays a role. Thus if two smaller battles of low-challenge monsters arrives (two camps of 8-10 goblins 2 minutes apart), the magic-user will always be ready to unleash those spells that are cool-down sensitive. Lower-tier spells are no longer an issue over multiple battles. 4- These problems are similar to all self-recharging mechanics (stamina, mana). Ultimately, the same players who rest-spammed, will now effectively wait-spam until their magic-users are fully recharged (to the best of their abilities). This will remove those same players from immersion. There are likely other problems that I have not considered, so please let me know. I have tried to summarize the general gist of most reactions to these systems. ----------------------------------------------------------- This solution to this problem actually comes from an intelligent application of the Vancian system in Baldur's Gate II (an IE game) to create a challenge in both resource-management as well as effective magic-usage. In the game, Baldur's Gate II:Throne of Bhaal, during the final arena with the boss (Melissan), the player is not allowed to rest (you are in another plane of existance, you cannot rest at all), and thus magic becomes a very limited resource. However, you need to use magic (and strong magic at that!) to weaken the boss before you can even fight her, by fighting monsters that are unleashed from "spirit pools". As you defeat each group of monsters and unlock each pool, two of the three pools "restore" your party as if you are resting. Thus they act as "rest-areas" without you actually resting for 8 hours and they restore your magic during that time. However, the spirit pools are one-time use only. Thus these pools become a very limited and precious resource and there is no opportunity to spam rest or spam wait. If you do not use magic, these spirit pools are useless (forcing the player to use magic). So it seems simple enough, instead of letting "resting" restore your magic use (or stamina or mana, etc), utilize specific "spirit pools" found all throughout the P:E to restore the magic. It actually also makes more sense, from a lore perspective - I get into that at the end of this post. The "pools" act like the D&D spell "Wish" where you can restore your parties magic completely. The pools are on a cool-down (every 8 hours) and several pools can be found in a dungeon (they are spread all throughout the P:E world). Perhaps, some merchants have taken the waters of these pools and sell them to adventurers. These "potions of restoration" act like the D&D cleric's level 6 spell "wonderous recall." They allow some (random) of your soul-powered spells to return to you, so as to allow magic-users to cast these spells again. Perhaps some spirit pools allow partial rejuvination, and some only allow certain schools of magic to be restored (Spirit Pool of Divination - only allows divination spells to be restored). This allows for much more interesting combinations of restoration and more interesting puzzles and challenges in dungeons. Again you can have partial restoration through potions (Potion from the spirit pool of divination). I will now go through the problems as stated before and show how this mechanic solves these problems. 1- Vancian magic: Players will save even rudimentary first-level spells "for the right moment" and completely neglect one aspect of their combat choices completely. The player now no longer has a reason to save his or her spells. As long as the player can manage his/her resources until the next pool, s/he can utilize their spells to the most tactically advantageous way possible. If they don't use it, they lose it as they reach the next pool (all spells are restored, regardless if used or not.) 2- Removes the player from immersion The player is now even more immersed in the game, as they try to figure out (through a skill perhaps?) what kind of spirit pool they have uncovered, whether it would be best to save this pool for later use, etc and they are kept on their toes as their try to fight past monsters to get to the next "spirit pool." This continues to keep the player thinking about resource management. 3- Vancian magic-users are relegated either to "stone-throwing duty" or heavy-magic users in parties who are "rest-spammers." Magic-users can now take their proper role as magic-users. If they do not do so, they will miss their chance to use magic in between spirit pools. 1- Cooldowns: The party can effectively wait long enough to "cool-down" the magic user so as to get into battle again. The restoration of magic is no longer dependent on wait-times and cool-downs. The concern of "dumbing down the game" is removed as players are forced to once again manage resources and spells as before in the Vancian system. 3- Cooldown: The management of spells over a series of battles no longer plays a role Resource management continues to be a factor between spirit pools. Players are forced to consider that they might not find a pool for long periods of time or that there might be another pool a short distance away. Sneaking and information gather through rogues become more important. They become effective as scouts looking out for enemies as well as trying to find the next spirit pool. Even then, perhaps the next spirit pool might only restore certain spells. For those who do not manage their spells effectively, they will be forced to carry potions of spiritual restoration and hope that the spell they want is restored. Players are punished for lax play, and rewarded for strategic play over several battles. 4- Cooldown: Lower-tier spells are no longer an issue over multiple battles Once again, lower-tier spells are an issue for multiple battles. Players cannot spam level 3 flaming arrows and wait for them to cool-down between fights. Perhaps a few level one spells can continue to be on cool-down (or maybe potions would have to restore them), but these tweaks can be made over time and with enough play-testing a proper balance can be found. LORE It never made much sense (in D&D) that magic spells were memorized each morning and forgotten after being used. It also didn't make much sense that by resting you would restore these spells. I would imagine that the magic-user was not resting but rather spending his 8 hours in camp memorizing new spells. Not quite the restful break for the magician. In P:E, magic-use and its derivatives (apart from chanters?) are linked to channeling the spirits in some way. Thus as each person in this world channels their spirit in this world, they are likely to weaken this link in some way. However, spread all throughout the world are "pools" or portals in which the links to the spirits and people is much stronger and this link can be strengthened at these pools. However, the pools can only be used every so-often as the energies emanating from these pools gets used up. Over time, the energies in these pools recharge and allow people to "refresh" their links with their souls. Some merchants have tried to make a profit from this, as many pools found inside the cities are protected or bought (and can be found only in the hands of the very wealthy). These merchants have asked adventurers going out on their journeys to gather the waters of these pools and to return them to the merchants. The price paid for these waters is good, but purchasing these waters is quite expensive (merchants need to make a profit afterall). What do you guys think? Please forgive any spelling or grammatical mistakes.

It was one of the things that truly made the Fallout experience unique. I had never seen the same enemy killed differently with different weapons. It made me want to try out the different weapons to see how many ways I could kill something. My favorite has got to be the electric death with the spiked hair. Oh, and it felt oh so satisfying blowing off a chunk of my enemies. I'm not sure why...

I read your ideas, but I was honestly confused. Did you want layers so that when your character wears a helmet, it would unlock tahat layer in your portrait or were you talking strictly about changing colors and the like for a single image? I feel that a image editor sort of isn't worth the trouble for devs because one could always do that in photoshop and reimport the portrait.

Make me one?

Just keep in mind that Fallout's death animations were mainly aimed towards humans and humanoids so the animation was pretty similar across enemies. In P:E we might have all sorts of baddies and if they want to do this for all of them, it might take a while... just sayin'

Hence if they have the time. If they want to do it for bosses, that'd be cool too. Something to give the game a little flavor. I see all these posts about realism this and realism that and how we want moar bettar story, but at the end of the day, this isn't a book or a movie or anything but a game. Let's try to remember it's supposed to be fun too.

If they make modding and importing portraits a breeze, this shouldn't be a problem. You could probably use some of your favorite portraits from NVN, ID, BG, if you pleased.

One of the really interesting/cool/funny stuff that I enjoyed from Fallout 2 was the death animations from different weapons used against enemies. "But this is supposed to be an IE game, not Fallout 2," you say, and I would think back to BGII. BGII also had the famous "chunking" animation, where if you were hit with a critical hit there was a chance that your body would "chunk" to pieces and fly everywhere (Adamantium golem anyone?). It would be really cool to see more death animations in this game. Burning bodies running around, acidified body melting, souls being removed straight from the body, etc. That would add some fun to the game. This, of course, all depends on the budget and time allowed for these things. If doing these animations is going to take away from something more important, then don't do it. But I'd like the devs to at least consider this as a possibility. Here is an example

I think the old IE games need to learn a few tricks from the strategy wargames like Starcraft II and add a few extra options like follow, patrol, etc. If you had a rogue in the front scouting the area, it would be great to have a "follow" command where the rest of the party would follow behind the rogue (maybe 10 feet behind) without you having to click them along. The other idea I had was to have a sort of "lock formation" command, where let's say you had some sort of strange formation that the developers didn't think of, then what you could do is lock your formation and whenever you clickd that formation woulod be maintained. I believe Age of Empires had something similar to this. What do you guys think?

We all loved IE combat because of the counters and the strategic gameplay, but my point is that the timed spell casting ruins this strategic aspect. You say there are counters to breach, but I never said that breach was unbalanced, I said that the lower level damage spells with their quick casting time are unbalanced. No matter what spell defenses are used, and what counters are used, you have to agree that eventually both mages will be without the spell defenses (either because they cast them all and those were breached/removed, or because they switched over to other types of spells). As soon as that happens, one mage can dominate the other with spells like Magic Missile, even if the other has the most powerful spells in the AD&D system. That's what makes the whole thing broken. Spells like Magic Missile were never meant to be counters to high level spells, they are simply meant to be low level damage spells that scale very well with higher levels and might be useful in certain situations. Here is a simple example. My mage enters a fight against an AI mage (1v1 to keep it simple). The enemy mage casts some spell shield on himself. If he doesnt have the instant cast contingency/spell sequencer, I might already dominate him by casting magic missile right after him, interrupting him and stopping his shield. But even if he did have the insta cast, I cast some breach/remove magic counter spell to remove his shield. So the round after that, he can continue casting shield spells, and I can continue removing them until he is out of defenses, or at some point he can switch to offensive spells against me. In either case, I can dominate him with magic missiles/other low level quick spells, by interrupting his higher level spells while also doing damage to him. Please explain to me how you would tell the AI to act against this dominant tactic. This is clearly an exploit/cheesy tactic instead of strategy/counters. Well if the AI was written better, it could win. While you are casting breach, what is preventing the mage from casting magic missle on you? Ultimately, you also have so many magic missles (5 or 6) so you're going to run out sooner or later. There were always wands too that a mage could possibly use. Yes, I agree, a challenging mage battle requires a stronger AI. There were many improved AIs for the mages with later mods that came out for BG2. Check out SCSII as a mod; you'll see what I mean. But casting time was intended as a balancing mechanism against higher level spells. You cast all the magic missles you want, if you let me cast a Abu Dhaltzim's Horrid Wilting in the same time that you can cast 4-5 magic missles without my spell being interrupted, let's see who'd win that fight.

Thanks for the links Wombat. I would be interested in seeing how that works. I would also hope that they implement a way for modders to change PC portraits to do so. I don't want just my NPCs to change faces when emoting. I'm sure there will be mods for that sort of thing, if they allow it. Very cool, thanks again.

I just never understood what a publisher was, what a developer did, etc. I just knew Best Buy sold games that I liked. I also knew that these games were getting more and more expensive every year.

I loved the Tactics mod for BG2 because you could change that to 20, 40 or even 80k (and I think 100k) as the quest. That made the game integration (as you call it) much better for me. Of course, they could have changed this so people who weren't interested in running around doing quests and wanted to finish the story faster could do so, merely by changing this in a difficulty setting.

At the end of the day, both predictions are realistic. Only time will tell. Crowdfunding is the attempt of getting rid of the "semi-middleman" that is publisher. If it succeeds, it can only mean a better age not only for gamers, but also for the developers themselves. The ideal, to me, would be that there are only developers and players with nothing in-between them. And as I've suggested earlier, the modern infrastructure of Internet permits getting rid of the one remaining middleman - the distributor. But it's still not certain whether crowdfunding itself will succeed, so step by step I say. I can ultimately wish nothing but the best for Obsidian. Because if Obsidian wins, gamers win. This was not the case with publisher-funded games. Developers could create great games but still suffer for it both from their fans and the publishers. This whole KS thing has opened my eyes to the incredibly bleak world of game development. It's tough and I really feel for these guys.

The one thing with a class-less stronghold, is that when I want to replay the game, I am much less likely to go through the hassle of building up my stronghold EACH time I start a new game. Imagine if it was part of the main plot - that would be a boring boring time. If the stronghold is class-based and/or skill-based (at least 40-50%) then replayability when it comes to the stronghold will occur. Otherwise, it will lose its appeal after the first time through. A replayable stronghold needs several different "good" outcomes that depend on different character attributes. That's why BG2 strongholds were fun, even if you replayed the game.

Man, I really want OE to succeed, not as much because I want the game, but more because I'd like these negative-types to have to swallow their words. Come on OE, you've got a lot riding on this. Don't screw up. No pressure though :D

I'm going to tell you right now, Double Fine has an audience just as big and just as dedicated as Obsidian's audience. Double Fine's designers have just as much clout in the hardcore "PC Adventure Game" niche as Obsidian do in the "PC RPG" niche, if not more. Tim Schafer is many, many things, but he's NOT lacking in name recognition, I assure you. Well obviously I wasn't talking about his eminence, Mr. Schafer. I'm talking about KS that haven't been doing as well as DFA or WL. Mr. Fargo is also quite well-recognized, being the one who started Interplay after all...

Imagine magic being the D&D equivalent of Fallout's Energy weapons. I would love to see some awesome animations when you get crit hit and die.

I want to be able to play without a pet at all! My character doesn't believe in "owning" animals. He thinks that's just messed up.

^ Yeah it just doesn't seem time-effective for the devs to waste time and energy building up a whole "facial features" section for the 3d models.

In older IE games, magic didn't miss unless it was a touch spell. Your magic missles didn't miss, and higher level spells didn't miss. Usually, you had save vs spells instead. Should ranged magic act more like ranged weapons in that they should miss or no? Discuss.