IndiraLightfoot

I see a trend coming - later and later dates - after people have seen the beta and read the feedback and heated discussion, they realize that PoE may get delayed into next year, with spring and summer beaconing. Interesting, interesting... Who will win? Right now, Gromnir has a pretty cool date.

True. Item interactions were almost a hallmark of the best Ultimas. As for T:ToN, yeah un-muddled dreams are like night swimming - you feel naked and free, since you don't know what's lurking down below - and you don't see all the mud, the sharp rocks, pointy twigs, creepy bugs...

Oneiromancer: Have some space beside the large portraits of your party, and then add smaller portraits that join in the row, and work like the others. In M&M X, you even see two follower portraits on each side (something like that - easy, peasy - technically, they were not active in combat in that game, but you get the point). If we ditch most of that hud, we can have a row of six portraits, and perhaps 5-6 summons as well, all in a row, and if the combat log is in the upper corner like in M&M X, you can have 14-17 or something like that.

Don't you throw your hands just yet, good sir! I have extremely high hopes for T:ToN. While not exactly your standard RPG setting, it may even surpass the best Ultimas in RPG depth and meaningful choices (perhaps even its combat, rare, but always meaningful - no trash mobs). Only thing I doubt it will surpass is Ultima VII's atmosphere as something lived in, here and now and yesterday. On the other hand, the Ultimas often lacked that cultural and historical time depth that Tolkien excelled in - and which Forgotten Realms and other settings sometimes (rarely) have succeeded in.

Because that's terrible design, if you don't use shortcuts. Imo The action bar should be above the character portraits, else you choose a character then go down to the action bar and then go up again. Great improvement! Wonder why Ubisoft missed that? It would save loads of movements, and it really makes sense (as long as the action bar is thin and the portraits big, of course).

After having played the beta, I'm leaning towards a UI like M&M X: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gPZiFUreEk#t=4m41s[/youtube Clear combat log to the left (upper left, lower left), and then you have large portraits with clear combat/status effects on those portraits. For each character you pick, there is a generous bar beneath the portraits, letting you pick your preferred action fast and easy. But instead of mini-map (no need for that, have the hub there).

No worries! It was me not expressing it clear enough. What I meant by "combat rewards" in this case was the options you're granted at levelling, when your characters progress. 1) Char creation at start of game ==some rp/background stuff + your first combat skills 2) Enter game, seek out quest givers 3) In-between quest givers playing ==mostly combat (or, as some people have reported, quite a bit of sneaking as an option), some convos with NPC and companions, a few puzzles and obstacles in the form of traps and locks. 3) Immediate reward in-game playing==loot + fun doing 3) 4) Hand in quest items to, or do stuff for, quest givers 5) Get quest xp 6) Sooner or later, your character levels up 7) Reward at level-up: primarily enhanced and diversified combat skills, a few non-combat skills Rinse and repeat, until entire game is done. Extras: Stronghold and loot cuddling/polishing (crafting)

Headbomb: Those were excellent! Nice job. You wouldn't be DM-ing by any chance?

I dove into the new patch for an hour or so, and some stuff is new to me: -I had like 150 different crafting components, which now had the text "no longer in use, but vendors covet them" or something like it. Lo and behold, I sold those, and netted millions of gp! -In the time I actually played, I did one rift - I got three legendary drops - one from an urn - and one of them, a crown was an upgrade, so it was a nice start. -I also encountered twin bandits, some promo event they have going, and so far on Torment, I haven't succeeded in killing them both -Another promo is 100% gold drops, which is great. I use that to craft up all of my old gems into those superior royal gems. And the xp fix rushed straight through my veins, a fix much needed, if anyone's wondering.

I liked these two! A question about the second: Do you mean that the ranger sacrifices having her/his animal companion, and instead he/she gets a number of fight like animal X,Y,Z-abilities? If so, that is a brilliant suggestion! Lots of people here are suggesting combat-improving talents. I'd love to see heaps of more non-combat talents, though.

This is a fair objection you raise, but even if the story is great. This is a game, and it's clearly built heavily around combat and the level progression for your roleplaying character revolves almost solely around combat rewards.

Durlag's Tower, for me, the first time around, was awesome! And tough! I had a hard time passing the guardians outside, IIRC. And inside, the hot Demonknight teaser start, the traps were deadly, so many things were in fact other things - illusions, fakes and dead-ends (pretty fantastic). Those doppelgangers sure fooled me! Everything I did in that tower felt like an accomplishment - every single step - it's one of the closest things I've had to a real PnP D&D session in a CRPG. The stories you got to unravel were top-notch. EDIT: It's like - had that alone been a game at that time, I would have been pretty satisfied. EDIT 2: It must have taken ages to design it, and that's just a fraction of that game's content. I'm still today in awe over how much detail that went into BG1 and BG2.

Mayama: Although I love fast pace and good RTwP, I have a feeling you're right on that one. That kind of combat would fit this game. Still, I believe the RTwP combat can be fixed. However, it's too late to fix the fact that the game is very combat-oriented, but it won't have that deep character development of an RPG touching your soul (excuse the pun).

Indeed. They are the imprints of CRPG bliss. I also loved Durlag's Tower.

Mayama: Perhaps I'm an oddball being pretty old and all, but I like it all! -Grinding for weeks for items through mind-numbing battles in Diablo. (Fast food gourmand) -Perfecting an IE game party combat wise, going through exciting battles meticulously (slow food gourmet) -Playing IE/NWN-games with one character with fantastically written companions, and taking combat slightly more lightly. -Story, story, story - nothing else. Point n-click games -Deep story and lots of choices, and experiencing things in the game that actually affects me emotionally, philosophically, etc (a bit PST, my hopes for T:ToN) I cannot understand why it's so hard to have all these gaming urges in you. The good thing is: I have plenty of games to choose from.

I'm happy to report that I am a goal-oriented person through and through. I have a hard time working with too process-oriented folks as well.

More comments on xp and rewards by Feargus and Josh: Feargus: @Cantousent Personally, I like to give XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them. IMHO. Kickstarter, Sep 25, 2012 My comment: Like George Ziets, Feargus prefers a combat xp-based system. inertiax asks: Could we get clarification on the exp system you guys are thinking about? It implies you won’t give experience for kills how does this work with things like the mega dungeon? Josh: We plan to grant XP for exploration-based quests and objectives, so if there's something like the mega-dungeon that's focused on moving from level to level toward a goal, we will award portions of XP for achieving those goals. Most players will likely use combat to get to that point, but that doesn't need to be the only solution." 30h left of the KS, Oct, 2012. Reddit. Comment: Here we see objectives and "portions of xp" being used. Feargus' vision is no longer afloat. Josh's view on xp systems and rewards: "I used to be a big fan of "learn by doing", but in practice I think it really works best in tabletop games where the GM can adjudicate exactly what's going on. Now I favor systems where an abstracted earned currency is used to advance the character's stats -- in other words, typical XP systems, whether level-based or not. However, I am strongly against awarding experience points for "ways and means". I.e. killing monsters, picking locks, scribing scrolls, etc. Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs. Unless combat is the sole focus of the game, we need to keep the player's focus on achieving a goal in whatever manner he or she sees fit. The accomplishment of the goal, not the method itself, should net the main reward. The reward for "ways and means" is usually self-contained. E.g. monsters drop monster bits, opening locked rooms gives access to otherwise unavailable equipment. [...] And really, the biggest reward has already been granted to the player: you allowed him or her to play the game in the manner he or she wanted. There's an idea I don't subscribe to -- that players need to be given tiny rewards for everything they do. If your gameplay is actually fun, you shouldn't need to bribe them! When gameplay simply becomes drudgery motivated by a desire to gain a bonus that makes the gameplay easier, I feel that we have failed as designers. People wind up effectively “grinding skills” instead of just playing the game. I’d like to keep people focused on accomplishing things in the setting instead of meta-gaming stats in the world. I don’t have anything against people powergaming or min-maxing, I just want to keep that sort of activity out of the game world, if that makes sense. When it’s time to advance your character or equip gear, go bonkers. But flailing away with a crappy weapon skill or jumping up and down in place just to advance a skill – frankly it just seems like degenerate gaming to me. The character systems that have most influenced me are the ones in Darklands, Fallout, Mass Effect, and Oblivion." Designing Character Systems, interview, irontowerstudio. My comment: Josh has decided that such reward systems, common to all IE games, are degenerate and not fun, and thus not rewarding. The game itself should be the reward. Combat itself should make you want to reach next encounter, and the next melee, otherwise, he hasn't done his job. Three problems: 1) That's highly subjective. Plenty of players find those systems rewarding, necessary, and even immersive and RPG-y, for being computer games. 2) "Ways and means" are all there is in a computer game, I'm afraid. Without rewarding them, you have made yourself a theme-park ride in-between quest givers (ticket salesmen), not with Bioschock AAA-graphics, but with sights looking like an IE-inspired game. 3) Why then design a game so heavily around combat and ways-and-means-skills? Why not go all the way, and make PoE like T:ToN or Planescape: Torment (which would be awesome, but it's not what most people would expect). Josh: "I'm happy with the number of wilderness areas we have. I think there will be good content density in them and there are enough of them off the critical path that players will feel rewarded for exploring." Interview by Sensuki, rpgcodex. Late July, 2014. My comment: Once again, this implies that side quests are regarded as rewards in themselves.

Elerond: Thanks for digging that info up!

prodigydancer: I agree, that kind of itemization would be pretty horrible for PoE.

WebShaman: I love the paradox you've captured. Right now, PoE doesn't fit PGers nor RPGists, since its systems, its gameplay and its incentives/progress are almost all about combat, whereas the only way to get the machine moving is like you say: stick to one single convo-heavy build and avoid combat. And then! When you've done that, seemingly as a good RPGist, you have in essence become a PGer, and your rewards will all be delivered in the form of combat perks.

Sensuki: Thanks for this and your great effort overall!

prodigydancer: Everything a player does with a game is subjective to one degree or another. Josh has already answered that one, just see his reply in a post above you. As for the second quote: You misunderstand something there. I never mention random drops. "Itemization" in a CRPG is something else. See the relevant thread under Combat beta discussion.

*SUDDEN FLASH* All of the sudden, I'm overwhelmed with gratitude for having backed T:ToN big time. There we'll get roleplaying of ZaZu's high standards, turn-based combat in accordance with Marceror's suggestions, and no trash mobs (just a few, focussed and varied encounters), and lots of area design by George Ziets, with Kevin Saunders as the lead (MotB). At least, I'm thankful that this dream isn't tarnished, since the one here is. I still have super-high hopes for it, but some of the missing pieces for this "spiritual IE successor" are like missing limbs right now - phantom limbs I still prefer using psycho-somatically.

Except, barring the fed ex quests, in PoE, you don't get xp for lockpicking or crafting either. Sure, xp is definitely a classic abstract progress bar of many an RPG. But then again, why the heavy combat focus on levelling up, in the game, probably talents as well? In essence, it's utterly absurd to have your party slowly becoming Bruce Lee, Darth Vader and Aang, all from passing under the radar, and from being well-behaved scout hubs and turn in all the lost-n-founds.

Brilliant post!